Mayor Ken's secret plan to rid London of cycling menace.

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Colin, Jul 20, 2005.

  1. Colin

    Colin Guest

    Err, if I was one for hyperbole I would have chose the subject line
    without my tongue being firmly in my cheek, possibly 'Problem with TfL
    Journey Planner' might have been less attention grabbing subject line.
    Still ...

    I think the TfL Journey Planner, http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk is quite
    useful, if you take the advanced options you'll find some options to help
    you plan cycle routes - an effort in the right direction I think.

    It has some flaws though. When trying to plan a route to take me from
    Bard Road, W10 to Bowes Road, W3, the route suggested would take me along
    the A40(M) - not a problem in itself, I've, err, done that stretch of
    moterway on my bicycle before - the real problem being getting my bike up
    to the elevated section without absailing equipment. In the end I did
    decide on a route of my own, around Shepherds Bush Green - probably not
    any safer though.

    There is a small part of my conspiratorial mind that makes me think it
    might be part of a wider plan though.

    What says you all?
     
    Tags:


  2. On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:57:32 +0100, Colin <[email protected]> wrote:

    >There is a small part of my conspiratorial mind that makes me think it
    >might be part of a wider plan though.
    >
    >What says you all?


    I'd say that cycle routes are very subjective as there are many
    factors that can make them good or bad to any given individual
    cyclist, and as such they're best planned with a map and experience.

    Neil

    --
    Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
    When replying please use neil at the above domain
    'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.
     
  3. Neil Williams wrote:
    > I'd say that cycle routes are very subjective as there are many
    > factors that can make them good or bad to any given individual
    > cyclist, and as such they're best planned with a map and experience.


    I'd also say that the lie of the land comes into it, which an A-Z won't
    show hills; my route to work has a cycle path most of the way, but ends
    up going up and down hill far more than taking the main road, which is
    mostly flat.

    --
    Simon Hewison
     
  4. MartinM

    MartinM Guest

    you can't absail (or even abseil) _up_ , you have to prusik ;-)

    but ITYF there is a cycleable route between the two involving neither
    of the above, done it myself ( a while ago though)
     
  5. Colin

    Colin Guest

    On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:31:05 -0700, MartinM wrote:

    > you can't absail (or even abseil) _up_ , you have to prusik ;-)


    I suspected that absailing was a one-way persuit ;-)

    >
    > but ITYF there is a cycleable route between the two involving neither
    > of the above, done it myself ( a while ago though)


    Over the railway line? I work in Bard Road, know, or thought I knew, the
    Westway Sports Centre area, and can think of nothing that goes over the
    railway line at that point.

    Can you remember any clues?
     
  6. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    Colin wrote:
    >
    > What says you all?


    I say, as I've said many times before, use http://www.cyclemaps.com *.
    It may not be perfect (I believe it started from the same TfL database)
    but the last time someone pointed out the use of a helicopter the guy
    went out that weekend and sorted it, as he has other mapping errors I've
    found. In the end though there is no substitute from the knowledge
    built up from experience.

    --
    Tony

    "I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
    Anon

    *
    Quiet route:
    BARD ROAD for 216 meters
    Turn left onto FRESTON ROAD for 223 meters
    Go straight on PATH UNDER FLYOVER for 115 meters
    Go straight on STABLE WAY for 199 meters
    Go straight on LATIMER ROAD for 517 meters
    Turn left onto NORTH POLE ROAD for 84 meters
    Turn left onto EYNHAM ROAD for 222 meters
    Turn right onto NASCOT STREET for 122 meters
    Turn left onto WOOD LANE for 15 meters
    Turn right onto DU CANE ROAD for 1,319 meters
    Turn left onto HILARY ROAD for 66 meters
    Turn right onto NORBROKE STREET for 231 meters
    Turn left onto OLD OAK COMMON LANE for 64 meters
    Go straight on OLD OAK ROAD for 15 meters
    Go straight on OLD OAK COMMON LANE for 77 meters
    Go straight on EAST ACTON LANE for 225 meters
    Turn left onto for 33 meters
    Turn left onto GLENDUN ROAD for 49 meters
    Turn left onto BOWES ROAD

    Direct Route

    BARD ROAD 216 METRES
    TURN LEFT FRESTON ROAD 223 METRES
    AHEAD PATH UNDER FLYOVER 115 METRES
    AHEAD STABLE WAY 199 METRES
    AHEAD LATIMER ROAD 517 METRES
    TURN LEFT NORTH POLE ROAD 162 METRES
    TURN LEFT WOOD LANE 222 METRES
    TURN RIGHT DU CANE ROAD 1,319 METRES
    TURN LEFT HILARY ROAD 66 METRES
    TURN RIGHT NORBROKE STREET 231 METRES
    TURN LEFT OLD OAK COMMON LANE 64 METRES
    AHEAD OLD OAK ROAD 15 METRES
    TURN RIGHT WESTERN AVENUE 228 METRES
    TURN LEFT GLENDUN ROAD 99 METRES
    TURN RIGHT BOWES ROAD 193 METRES
     
  7. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Colin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]
    > Err, if I was one for hyperbole I would have chose the subject line
    > without my tongue being firmly in my cheek, possibly 'Problem with TfL
    > Journey Planner' might have been less attention grabbing subject line.
    > Still ...
    >
    > I think the TfL Journey Planner, http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk is quite
    > useful, if you take the advanced options you'll find some options to help
    > you plan cycle routes - an effort in the right direction I think.


    <snip>

    You caused me to look at the site and try (as a thought experiment only) its
    suggestion for a journey I used to do regularly. It suggests 42 minutes
    cycling and a rather ziggy zaggy route -- presumably to avoid the Lea Bridge
    Road -- which I would regard as perfectly cyclable. Memory suggests the
    more direct route could be done comfortably inside 30 minutes -- though that
    included a short cut through Epping Forest that could get soggy in the
    winter.

    The alternatives using buses and tubes all came out in the 1:10 to 1:20
    range -- partly because the start point is nearly a mile from a bus stop or
    tube station -- though gave some interesting alternatives I would not
    necessarily have considered.

    Looking at Transport Direct (http://www.transportdirect.info) the public
    transport times were very similar.

    However, the door to door car time suggested is 39 minutes for 8.3 miles
    (again, by a reasonable route but not one that I would not have picked as a
    local with local knowledge). The time sounds a little pessimistic on a good
    day and wildly optimistic on a bad one.

    What is concealed in the car time is that it is impossible to park within
    1/2 to 3/4 mile of the destination so you need to add a further 10 minutes
    walking time.

    The future of transport in cities is clear :~)

    T
     
  8. John Hearns

    John Hearns Guest

    On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:57:32 +0100, Colin wrote:

    >
    > I think the TfL Journey Planner, http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk is quite
    > useful, if you take the advanced options you'll find some options to help
    > you plan cycle routes - an effort in the right direction I think.

    There is http://www.londoncyclenetwork.org
    Click on the 'Mapping' link.

    I just tried it, and the maps to my eye are not as clear
    as the paper ones.
     
  9. MatSav

    MatSav Guest

    "Colin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]
    > Err, if I was one for hyperbole I would have chose the subject line
    > without my tongue being firmly in my cheek, possibly 'Problem with TfL
    > Journey Planner' might have been less attention grabbing subject line.
    > Still ...
    >
    > I think the TfL Journey Planner, http://journeyplanner.tfl.gov.uk is quite
    > useful, if you take the advanced options you'll find some options to help
    > you plan cycle routes - an effort in the right direction I think.
    >
    > It has some flaws though. When trying to plan a route to take me from
    > Bard Road, W10 to Bowes Road, W3, the route suggested would take me along
    > the A40(M) - not a problem in itself, I've, err, done that stretch of
    > moterway on my bicycle before - the real problem being getting my bike up
    > to the elevated section without absailing equipment.


    The A40(M) isn't actually a motorway any more. See
    URL:http://pathetic.org.uk/motorways/a40m.htm
    So, it's perfectly legal to cycle along that stretch of road - unless
    there's a Traffic Restriction Order in place. I don't know where you'll be
    able to check that.

    Incidentally, you'll NEVER get your bike UP with absailing equipment -
    that's designed for going DOWN ;-)

    --
    MatSav
     
  10. On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:57:32 +0100, Colin <[email protected]> wrote:


    > It has some flaws though. When trying to plan a route to take me from
    > Bard Road, W10 to Bowes Road, W3, the route suggested would take me along
    > the A40(M) - not a problem in itself, I've, err, done that stretch of
    > moterway on my bicycle before


    Is that legal? I live near the A1(M) and certainly wouldn't cycle on it
    (although I have had to ride on the A1 a couple of times).

    --
    jc
     
  11. Tony Raven wrote:
    > Colin wrote:
    > >
    > > What says you all?

    >
    > I say, as I've said many times before, use http://www.cyclemaps.com *.
    > It may not be perfect (I believe it started from the same TfL database)
    > but the last time someone pointed out the use of a helicopter the guy
    > went out that weekend and sorted it, as he has other mapping errors I've
    > found. In the end though there is no substitute from the knowledge
    > built up from experience.
    >


    Cyclemaps suggests I go through Pentonville Prison on my way to
    work, which is amusing, but the map shows a correct route.

    TFL comes up with a route that avoids King's Cross, and gets
    the journey time spot on at 17 minutes. However it suggests
    going through Euston station gardens, which might prove difficult.
     
  12. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > Cyclemaps suggests I go through Pentonville Prison on my way to
    > work, which is amusing, but the map shows a correct route.
    >


    Did you use the Monopoly version. "Go to jail, go directly to jail, do
    not pass GO, do not collect £200"

    P.S. Drop your jail observation to the site contact if its an error and
    he will fix it. The more people that use it and do so the more useful
    it will become to all of us and I don't know of another site that is
    concerned about and fixes such errors promptly

    --
    Tony

    "I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
    Anon
     
  13. Adrian

    Adrian Guest

    Neil Williams ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding
    much like they were saying :

    > I'd say that cycle routes are very subjective as there are many
    > factors that can make them good or bad to any given individual
    > cyclist, and as such they're best planned with a map and experience.


    I think it's fairly reasonable for them to set the software to exclude the
    A40(M) from a cycling route, though...
     
  14. Adrian

    Adrian Guest

    Jeremy Collins ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding
    much like they were saying :

    >> It has some flaws though. When trying to plan a route to take me
    >> from Bard Road, W10 to Bowes Road, W3, the route suggested would take
    >> me along the A40(M) - not a problem in itself, I've, err, done that
    >> stretch of moterway on my bicycle before


    > Is that legal? I live near the A1(M) and certainly wouldn't cycle on
    > it


    Y'know, I was always under the impression that the Highway Code applied to
    cyclists, and that they were meant to *read* it occasionally...?

    <shrug>
    http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/23.htm#227

    Would you like to hazard a guess as to what the (M) stands for?
     
  15. MartinM

    MartinM Guest

    Colin wrote:
    > On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 16:31:05 -0700, MartinM wrote:
    >
    > > you can't absail (or even abseil) _up_ , you have to prusik ;-)

    >
    > I suspected that absailing was a one-way persuit ;-)
    >
    > >
    > > but ITYF there is a cycleable route between the two involving neither
    > > of the above, done it myself ( a while ago though)

    >
    > Over the railway line? I work in Bard Road, know, or thought I knew, the
    > Westway Sports Centre area, and can think of nothing that goes over the
    > railway line at that point.
    >
    > Can you remember any clues?


    I think there is a bridge under by the scrapyard right under the road
    interchange. Hardly very salubrious but nicer than Shepherd's Bush
     
  16. MartinM

    MartinM Guest

    Jeremy Collins wrote:
    > On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 23:57:32 +0100, Colin <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >
    > > It has some flaws though. When trying to plan a route to take me from
    > > Bard Road, W10 to Bowes Road, W3, the route suggested would take me along
    > > the A40(M) - not a problem in itself, I've, err, done that stretch of
    > > moterway on my bicycle before

    >
    > Is that legal? I live near the A1(M) and certainly wouldn't cycle on it
    > (although I have had to ride on the A1 a couple of times).


    the A40 has been declassified on the Westway, no longer a motorway,
    though there may still be a cycling ban, will check tomorrow.
     
  17. Bryan

    Bryan New Member

    Joined:
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    The A40 is not strictly the A40(M). in my dim and distant past I have cycles all teh way from White city to Uxbridge on the A40 (I soon found a much better way). Most of the A40 has a cycle path along side it, and for my current commute, is the one and only useful cycle path I have ever come across :)

    Bryan
     
  18. davek

    davek Guest

    Tony W wrote:
    > The future of transport in cities is clear :~)


    That reminds me, did anyone see the excellent piece by Polly Toynbee in
    yesterday's Grauniad?

    "Let the Olympics make London a bikes-first city "
    <url:http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1532002,00.html>

    Responses on today's letters page:
    <url:http://www.guardian.co.uk/letters/story/0,,1533000,00.html>

    d.
     
  19. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    Adrian wrote:
    >
    > Y'know, I was always under the impression that the Highway Code applied to
    > cyclists, and that they were meant to *read* it occasionally...?
    >
    > <shrug>
    > http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/23.htm#227
    >
    > Would you like to hazard a guess as to what the (M) stands for?


    I guess the question is how many times have you seen someone cycling on
    a motorway (Kenyan team at the Manchester Commonwealth Games excluded)
    versus how many times have I seen cars and motorbikes driven on
    bridleways? Bet my number is bigger than yours.

    --
    Tony

    "I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
    Anon
     
  20. Adrian

    Adrian Guest

    Tony Raven ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
    they were saying :

    > I guess the question is how many times have you seen someone cycling
    > on a motorway (Kenyan team at the Manchester Commonwealth Games
    > excluded) versus how many times have I seen cars and motorbikes driven
    > on bridleways? Bet my number is bigger than yours.


    Are we back to trying to figure out how many wrongs make a right?

    People driving cars and riding motorbikes over RoW without a vehicular
    right of way are in the wrong. Simple as that. They should not be there.

    However, don't forget that some Bridleways are BOATs, though, and that
    vehicles don't need an explicit RoW if they have the landowner's
    permission.

    Most people cycling on Footpaths are in the wrong, too.
     
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