Mountain Kills Mountain Biker

[S O R N I]

Mike Vandeman wrote:
>
> Then name even ONE area off-limits to ALL humans.

Your imaginary 10' by 10' "habitat"?!? LOL!!!

Bill "how long does it take to put up a small fence?" S.

 

[Doug Haxton]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 05:05:28 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>.>Only by humans, who don't follow their own logic. If a human kills a mountain .>lion, they call
>that "survival of the fittest" If a mountain lion kills a uman, .>even if it is just trying to
>survive, it's considered an aberration and .>"murder". You are a hypocrite. . .Please cite *anyone*
>who's described the mountain lion as a ."murderer".
>
>The shooter was a murderer.

No he wasn't. Murder, by definition, must involve the death of a human being. Killing a mountain
lion cannot be murder.
>He didn't even have any evidence that the lion was the culprit.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040110/ap_on_re_us/mountain_lion_attack_13
___________________________________________________________
A 2-year-old male mountain lion, which weighed about 110 pounds, was shot and killed Thursday night
after it returned to where Reynolds' body was found.

Initial tests conducted Friday revealed that tissues consistent with human skin were found in the
stomach of the male cat, said state Fish and Game spokeswoman Chamois Andersen. The full necropsy
will be completed next week, she said.

"We are fairly confident we have the sole cat that was responsible for both attacks," Andersen said.
___________________________________________________________

Here's the thing: you don't need to prove that a non-human animal killed someone...suspicion is more
than enough.

These aren't people we're killing, after all. Only non-human animals.

> And eating a dead human is not a crime.

It's also not a crime for a mountain lion to kill a human. Non-human animals can't commit crimes.
They aren't morally accountable for their actions, because they're not people.

*Because* they're not people, it's fine and dandy to kill them if there's a good reason. Being
a suspected man-killer is more than enough reason for me, and for the vast majority of the
public as well.

By the way...let the audience note that you weren't able to cite a single instance of someone
describing the cat as a "murderer", as you alleged.

Doug

 

[Bb]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 05:24:29 GMT, Rick Hopkins wrote:

> Actually Mike, we can easily determine what is normal for cougars. While catholic in their diet

...they eat fish on Friday? ;-)

(just adding a little levity; this thread went stupid at the first post)

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

 

[Pete]

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> penned some foolishness...

> Filter broken?

Naaa...I KNEW this would bring you out of the woodwork, and I released you from your prison
temporarily just to see what idiocy you would come up with. You did not fail to let me down.

You, OTOH, supposedly put me in your killfile years ago. What happened? Couldn't resist seeing your
name in print, and all that bluster about killfiles was merely BS?

Pete Maybe I'll put you back in the box, troll

 

[Peter H]

BB wrote:

>>
>>
>..they eat fish on Friday? ;-)
>
>(just adding a little levity; this thread went stupid at the first post)
>
>
>
>
Ya gotsta consider the source.

Pete H

--
We are all of one nation, all of one creed We are all out of nature, all of one seed
I. Bairnson

 

[Ken -Lsqny)]

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:17:02 GMT, "Nelson Binch"
<[email protected]> mumbled incoherently:

>> You don't have your facts right. The mountain lion is not a "pest"
>
> Any animal that threatens human safety or health is, at the very least a pest. Human life has
> supremacy.

Whew. You are risking being assaulted by PETA thugs. That was politically incorrect of you.

Ken (NY) Chairman, Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email: http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"Part of the solution for the environmental crisis may well lie in our ability to achieve a better

-Al Gore, 'Earth In The Balance' page 213

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
R: Telling your parents you’re gay.

spammers can send mail to [email protected]

 

[Ken -Lsqny)]

On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 19:56:23 GMT, Strider <[email protected]> mumbled
incoherently:

>Mountain lion normally attack people?
>
>Not according to just about everyone else that's weighed in on the matter.

List of Confirmed Cougar Attacks In the United States and Canada 1890 - 2004
http://users.frii.com/mytymyk/lions/attacks.htm

There are three links: [1991-2000 attacks] [2001-Now attacks] [Other Incidents]

Regards, Ken (NY) Chairman, Department Of Redundancy Department
___________________________________
email: http://www.geocities.com/bluesguy68/email.htm

"Part of the solution for the environmental crisis may well lie in our ability to achieve a better

-Al Gore, 'Earth In The Balance' page 213

Q: What the hardest thing about rollerblading?
R: Telling your parents you’re gay.

spammers can send mail to [email protected]

 

[The Nelson Para]

Ken [NY) wrote:
| On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:17:02 GMT, "Nelson Binch" <[email protected]> mumbled incoherently:
|
||| You don't have your facts right. The mountain lion is not a "pest"
||
|| Any animal that threatens human safety or health is, at the very least a pest. Human life has
|| supremacy.
|
| Whew. You are risking being assaulted by PETA thugs. That was politically incorrect of you.

If I see PeTA people, I wear my leathers and chomp down on a big hunk of steak, followed by KFC
chicken, washed down with milk!

 

[Just Zis Guy]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:07:33 -0500, "The Nelson Paradigm"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>If I see PeTA people, I wear my leathers and chomp down on a big hunk of steak, followed by KFC
>chicken, washed down with milk!

Is this because you feel guilty and subconsciously desire to shorten your life? Just curious...

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

 

[Westie]

Mike Vandeman wrote: <snip>
> .<snip> .> .Perhaps, but there are plenty of humans I'd like to shoot on sight. .> .> Your threat
> is duly noted. . .Believe it or not, the thought of shooting you on sight didn't cross my .mind. I
> was too busy thinking about other real people, closer to home, that .I'd like to shoot first.
> You're too paranoid, Mike.
>
> I never said the threat was to me, did I? Idiot.

Oh please...... this game is too pathetic to even begin to think about it. "I-never-said-the-threat-was-to-me,-did-
I?". I would expect a better response from a child. Grow up and behave like an adult for once, Mike.
--
Westie (Replace 'invalid' with 'yahoo' when replying.)

 

[Dan Volker]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:07:33 -0500, "The Nelson Paradigm" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >If I see PeTA people, I wear my leathers and chomp down on a big hunk of steak, followed by KFC
> >chicken, washed down with milk!
>
> Is this because you feel guilty and subconsciously desire to shorten your life? Just curious...
>
> Guy

Most of the top nutrition minds that handle the top athletes in the world, believe that steak
provides critical nutrients that an athlete "can not" get from vegetables or fish or chicken.
Granted the whole BSE thing is a concern, so now I eat only certified organic beef ( beef not fed
any MBM, and after slaughter, not extracted mechanically).

Strict vegans tend to have their own set of health issues caused by poor nutrition. Most people in
general, whether beef eaters or vegans, don't pay enough attention to learning what is good
nutrition, and how to attain it in meals that taste good.

Dan V

 

[R.M.H.]

thats funny............

Thanks Mike.

"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 05:56:55 -0500, Peter H <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> .Strider wrote: . .>It's an animal. It was hunting humans, not their natural prey, because .>it
> was hungry. .> .In the scenario given, the human WAS natural prey as seen through the .cougar's
> eyes. Everyone is on someone's food chain; from a carnivore's .perspective, a human is
> emminently edible.
>
> "Got an email from a horsewoman in Orange County who lives near Whiting Wilderness Park. She was
> severely injured as a result of an encounter with
a
> mountain biker which got her thrown from her horse. She and others have campaigned against
> mountain bikes and their 'competition training' in the
park.
> She said that now people are referring to the bikers as 'Meals on
Wheels'."
> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
> help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Tcmedara]

Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Then name even ONE area off-limits to ALL humans.
>
Your bedroom

Tom

 

[R.White]

"The Nelson Paradigm" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Ken [NY) wrote:
> | On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 15:17:02 GMT, "Nelson Binch" <[email protected]> mumbled
> | incoherently:
> |
> ||| You don't have your facts right. The mountain lion is not a "pest"
> ||
> || Any animal that threatens human safety or health is, at the very least a pest. Human life has
> || supremacy.
> |
> | Whew. You are risking being assaulted by PETA thugs. That was politically incorrect of you.
>
> If I see PeTA people, I wear my leathers and chomp down on a big hunk of steak, followed by KFC
> chicken, washed down with milk!

PETA isn't about animals anyhow, it's about money. Ever see their HQ's in Norfolk?

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 04:07:48 GMT, Rick Hopkins <[email protected]> wrote:

. . .Mike Vandeman wrote: .> The fact that a mountain lion is attacking mountain bikers confirms my
view that .> (1) bicycles don't belong in our parks and open spaces, or ANYWHERE off of .> pavement;
they make it too easy for people to get into wildlife habitat and .> disturb the wildlife whose home
it is; and (2) humans don't belong EVERYWHERE; .> wildlife have already lost far too much habitat,
and deserve to have habitat .> that is closed to all humans. This is ESPECIALLY true for animals
that are .> dangerous to humans. Closing the Whiting Ranch Wilderness Park in the Cleveland .>
National Forest to human access is the only appropriate response to this .> incident. . .Mike you
are surely clueless. The cougar attacked a human that was .crouching near his bike to repair it. The
Reynolds was apparently not .that far from the trailhead and easily reachable by hikers.

Neither would have been there, if bikes weren't allowed: mountain bikers are too lazy to walk.

The cougar
. did not see a mt biker but prey, a extremely rare circumstance, but .not unknown (the hiker in
San Diego in 1994 and the ultra marathon .runner on a trail in cool California are the only other
fatalities from .cougars in California since 1909.

What's your point?

.> It was INEXCUSABLE to kill the mountain lion. It was just trying to survive, the .> only way it
knows how. It is interesting that we always kill the animal first, .> and then try to justify it (by
claiming it was the culprit) later. Among humans, .> you are innocent till proven guilty. . .It
turns out that this cougar was responsible.

But if it wasn't, it would still be dead. Hypocrite.

Our response as a .society to kill an animal that killed us is pretty primal and consistent .with
other species.

That doesn't justify it. If anything animals do is okay, then eating humans is okay.

.I suggest you put your effort to encouraging people to recognize that .attacks from cougars are
extremely rare and that we should continue to .protect the habitats they occur in.

Allowing people to go there doesn't protect the habitat. As an alleged "biologist", you should know
that. And be honest enough to admit it. Scientists are supposed to be interested in the truth. You
aren't. You are interested in rationalizing mountain biking, for some reason.

Your irrational rantings merely .serve to convince your audience you are nuts and maybe they will
react .to lessen protection of areas cougars need, not increase them. . .Get a clue. . .Rick

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 05:00:24 GMT, Rick Hopkins <[email protected]> wrote:

. . .Mike Vandeman wrote: . .> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 05:49:37 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote: .> .>
. .> ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message .>
.news:[email protected]... .> .> The fact that a mountain lion is attacking
mountain bikers confirms my .> .view that .> .> (1) bicycles don't belong in our parks and open
spaces, or ANYWHERE off of .> .> pavement; they make it too easy for people to get into wildlife
habitat .> .and .> .> disturb the wildlife whose home it is; .> . .> .I'll make a slight exception
to my usual rule of simply ignoring you, Mikey. .> .Just this once, 'cause we truly do love you...
.> .> Filter broken? .> .> .By your own oft repeated definition, the victim in question was *not a
.> .mountain biker* at the time of the attack. He was off his bike, fixing it. .> .> That's mountain
biker logic. He was obviously still a mountain biker. . . .What you think or anyone else thinks is
really not relevant. What did .the cougar see. He was not attracted to something moving (e.g., a
.riding cyclist) he instead saw a crouched animal, it could have just as .easily been a hiker
looking at a flower, insect or track, or even taking .a ****. The hiker in San Diego in 1994 was
apparently crouching when .attacked. Did the cougar mistake her for a mt. biker?

What's your point? They were human. Banning humans from the park would protect them and the lions.
Bikes list increase the number of people in the park & how far they are able to travel.

.> .Had he been a hiker (you, maybe), and stopped to tie his shoe, the same .> .exact thing might
have happened. Presenting a small, vulnerable target. .> . .> .Maybe even you could realize...it's
not about the bike. .> .But I doubt it. .> .> BS. The bike allows people to travel much farther in
wildlife habitat -- people .> who are too lazy to WALK. But you forgot that I recommended closing
the area to .> ALL humans. .> .Most people attack are hikers; only a few mt. bikers and equestrians
.have been attacked. Your argument falls down as it does a poor job .explaining the facts.

I wasn't trying to explain anything. The facts are obvious: humans were killed in the park. If they
were banned, they wouldn't have been killed in the park, nor would the lion.

.> .Pete .> .bye bye for now. .> . .> .> === .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is
off-limits to .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .> years fighting
auto dependence and road construction.) .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 07:12:42 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

. ."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> penned some foolishness... . .> Filter broken? . .Naaa...I
KNEW this would bring you out of the woodwork, and I released you .from your prison temporarily just
to see what idiocy you would come up with. .You did not fail to let me down. . .You, OTOH,
supposedly put me in your killfile years ago.

Where did you get that nonsense? I only have an email filter.

What happened? .Couldn't resist seeing your name in print, and all that bluster about .killfiles
was merely BS? . .Pete .Maybe I'll put you back in the box, troll .

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 05:26:33 GMT, Rick Hopkins <[email protected]> wrote:

. . .Mike Vandeman wrote: . .> On 14 Jan 2004 12:23:44 -0800, [email protected] (Jonesy)
wrote: .> .> ."S o r n i" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>... .> .> Mike Vandeman wrote: .> .> > The fact that
a mountain lion is attacking mountain bikers confirms .> .> > my view that (1) bicycles don't belong
in our parks and open spaces .> .> {snip} .> .> .> .> First of all, nice header. (Almost true in
Miles' recent past.) Can we .> .> assume you use similar diligence in all your "research" efforts?
.> . .> .In this case, I'm sure that some peer somewhere reviewed it and said,

.> . .> .> Second of all, these encounters were in a *very* accessible location. Would .> .> be
equally likely to happen to hikers as bikers. (I can just imagine the .> .> outrage if it HAD been
hikers, and someone suggested they deserved to be .> .> attacked.) .> . .> .The person wasn't riding
a bike at the time of the attack, so .> .therefore the cat did attack a hiker. Duh. .> .> B.S. He
was a mountain biker, which is obvious to everyone except mountain .> bikers. . .Do you work at
being this dumb or is it a gift from God.

Am I wrong?
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 05:24:29 GMT, Rick Hopkins <[email protected]> wrote:

. . .Mike Vandeman wrote: .> On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 19:56:23 GMT, Strider <[email protected]> wrote: .>
.> .On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 05:56:55 -0500, Peter H <[email protected]> wrote: .> . .> .>Strider wrote:
.> .> .> .>>It's an animal. It was hunting humans, not their natural prey, because .> .>>it was
hungry. .> .>> .> .>In the scenario given, the human WAS natural prey as seen through the .>
.>cougar's eyes. Everyone is on someone's food chain; from a carnivore's .> .>perspective, a human
is emminently edible. .> .> .> .>Pete H .> . .> .Mountain lion normally attack people? .> . .> .Not
according to just about everyone else that's weighed in on the .> .matter. .> .> As they know what's
"normal" for another species. .> . .Actually Mike, we can easily determine what is normal for
cougars. .While catholic in their diet (they can and do eat just about any animal .that occurs in
nature) they specialize on cervids (deer and elk). In .areas where pigs are common, some individuals
exhibit a prediliction for .pig, but even in these areas pigs provide less caloric value than deer.
. we know that ecologically cougars do not view humans as prey, even in .Southern California.

Statistics don't prove ****. Just because they eat humans less frewuently than deer doesn't make
eating humans "abnormal". Just rare.

There are several hundred million recreational .visitor days a year in cougar country in
California and we have less .than one attack a year. Tens of thousands of times people come
within a .couple hundred meters (or closer) to cougars and are simply unaware of .it as the
cougar avoids them.

Your point? They are still driving the cougars out of their habitat, and thus should be banned.

.Rick . . . . .> .Strider .> .> === .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits
to .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 .> years fighting auto
dependence and road construction.) .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

 

[Mike Vandeman]

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 05:37:35 GMT, Doug Haxton <[email protected]> wrote:

.On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 05:05:28 GMT, Mike Vandeman <[email protected]> .wrote: . .>.>Only by
humans, who don't follow their own logic. If a human kills a mountain .>.>lion, they call that
"survival of the fittest" If a mountain lion kills a uman, .>.>even if it is just trying to
survive, it's considered an aberration and .>.>"murder". You are a hypocrite. .>. .>.Please cite
*anyone* who's described the mountain lion as a .>."murderer". .> .>The shooter was a murderer. .
.No he wasn't. Murder, by definition, must involve the death of a .human being. Killing a mountain
lion cannot be murder.

It was still murder.

.>He didn't even have any evidence that the lion was .>the culprit. .
.http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040110/ap_on_re_us/mountain_lion_attack_13
.___________________________________________________________ .A 2-year-old male mountain lion, which
weighed about 110 pounds, was .shot and killed Thursday night after it returned to where Reynolds'
.body was found. . .Initial tests conducted Friday revealed that tissues consistent with .human skin
were found in the stomach of the male cat, said state Fish .and Game spokeswoman Chamois Andersen.
The full necropsy will be .completed next week, she said.

That was AFTER it was killed, not before.

."We are fairly confident we have the sole cat that was responsible for .both attacks," Andersen
said. .___________________________________________________________ . .Here's the thing: you don't
need to prove that a non-human animal .killed someone...suspicion is more than enough.

Says who?

.These aren't people we're killing, after all. Only non-human animals. . .> And eating a dead human
is not a crime. . .It's also not a crime for a mountain lion to kill a human. Non-human .animals
can't commit crimes. They aren't morally accountable for .their actions, because they're not people.

So what?

*Because* they're not people, it's fine and dandy to kill them if .there's a good reason. Being a
suspected man-killer is more than .enough reason for me, and for the vast majority of the public as
well. . .By the way...let the audience note that you weren't able to cite a .single instance of
someone describing the cat as a "murderer", as you .alleged.

I just did.

.Doug

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to
help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande