Mountain Vs. Road pedals for a road bike

[SuperSlinky]

I have extensively Googled this, but I haven't found the answer I was
looking for. Simply put, do MTB pedals have longer spindles and thus a
wider final Q-factor compared to road pedals? I'm trying to decide on a
pedal/shoe combo for a new road bike, and what I've found searching the
Net is that a narrower Q-factor is preferable, as long as there are no
problems like smacking the crank arms or stays with your feet. I believe
I saw somewhere that road pedals result in a narrower Q-factor than MTB
shoes.

The problem I have with road shoes is walking. I really don't want to
end up with a system that makes walking extremely awkward. MTB pedals
use smaller cleats that can be recessed into the sole of a MTB or
touring shoe, making them walkable. My original idea was to standardize
both my bikes with Time ATACS or Eggbeaters until I remembered the Q-
factor issue. Here is what I have seen for other choices:

There are some road SPD pedals, but I don't really like the SPD system
and want to try something else.

Speedplay Frogs, but I saw somewhere that they have extra long spindles,
but don't know for sure.

Use the standard Look system and carry rubber cleat covers.

The new Shimano SPD-SL system is very well liked, but I haven't seen
anything about using the cleats with walkable shoes. My guess is that
you can't.

I saw a claim somewhere that there is a new Look system with smaller
cleats that can be used with walkable shoes. Haven't seen them for sale.
What do all of you do for the walking dilemma?

 

[Martin Newstead]

SuperSlinky wrote:
> ... What do all of you do for the walking dilemma?

I use Look pedals and use cleat covers if I intend to walk very far.

 

[David Reuteler]

SuperSlinky <[email protected]> wrote:
> What do all of you do for the walking dilemma?

time atacs on all my road bikes . i switched one over from speedplays and
another from looks .. if q is a factor it wasn't for me. one of 'em is a
touring bike so i didn't find cleat covers to be a good solution. one pair
of shoes sure is nice, too.
--
david reuteler
[email protected]

 

[Bill]

"SuperSlinky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have extensively Googled this, but I haven't found the answer I was
> looking for. Simply put, do MTB pedals have longer spindles and thus a
> wider final Q-factor compared to road pedals? I'm trying to decide on a
> pedal/shoe combo for a new road bike, and what I've found searching the
> Net is that a narrower Q-factor is preferable, as long as there are no
> problems like smacking the crank arms or stays with your feet. I believe
> I saw somewhere that road pedals result in a narrower Q-factor than MTB
> shoes.
>
> The problem I have with road shoes is walking. I really don't want to
> end up with a system that makes walking extremely awkward. MTB pedals
> use smaller cleats that can be recessed into the sole of a MTB or
> touring shoe, making them walkable. My original idea was to standardize
> both my bikes with Time ATACS or Eggbeaters until I remembered the Q-
> factor issue. Here is what I have seen for other choices:
>
> There are some road SPD pedals, but I don't really like the SPD system
> and want to try something else.
>
> Speedplay Frogs, but I saw somewhere that they have extra long spindles,
> but don't know for sure.
>
> Use the standard Look system and carry rubber cleat covers.
>
> The new Shimano SPD-SL system is very well liked, but I haven't seen
> anything about using the cleats with walkable shoes. My guess is that
> you can't.
>
> I saw a claim somewhere that there is a new Look system with smaller
> cleats that can be used with walkable shoes. Haven't seen them for sale.
> What do all of you do for the walking dilemma?

I use frogs on my mtb and speedplay x's on my road bike. I recently put the
frogs on the road bike for a cross PA supported road ride and noticed no Q
difference. Only thing that I found to be noticeable is the frogs on my
Shimano mtb shoes are almost a cm further from the pedal spindle than the
x's on a Time shoe. Required raising the saddle about 1 cm and seemed a
little less efficient. For the trip it was a pleasure being able to walk
normally.
Bill

 

[Kyle.B.H]

"SuperSlinky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have extensively Googled this, but I haven't found the answer I was
> looking for. Simply put, do MTB pedals have longer spindles and thus a
> wider final Q-factor compared to road pedals? I'm trying to decide on a
> pedal/shoe combo for a new road bike, and what I've found searching the
> Net is that a narrower Q-factor is preferable, as long as there are no
> problems like smacking the crank arms or stays with your feet. I believe
> I saw somewhere that road pedals result in a narrower Q-factor than MTB
> shoes.
>
> The problem I have with road shoes is walking. I really don't want to
> end up with a system that makes walking extremely awkward. MTB pedals
> use smaller cleats that can be recessed into the sole of a MTB or
> touring shoe, making them walkable. My original idea was to standardize
> both my bikes with Time ATACS or Eggbeaters until I remembered the Q-
> factor issue. Here is what I have seen for other choices:
>
> There are some road SPD pedals, but I don't really like the SPD system
> and want to try something else.
>
> Speedplay Frogs, but I saw somewhere that they have extra long spindles,
> but don't know for sure.
>
> Use the standard Look system and carry rubber cleat covers.
>
> The new Shimano SPD-SL system is very well liked, but I haven't seen
> anything about using the cleats with walkable shoes. My guess is that
> you can't.
>
> I saw a claim somewhere that there is a new Look system with smaller
> cleats that can be used with walkable shoes. Haven't seen them for sale.
> What do all of you do for the walking dilemma?

I don't believe such a correlation exists. Frogs are 55mm from spindle flat
to center of pedal. Other SPD's I have are about 53mm. Some Looks I have
are about 53mm. Frogs are orderable in standard (55mm), +1/8, +1/4, and
+1/2 inch spindle lengths. I actually have an asymmetrical set - left is
normal, right is +1/4 to accommodate an outward pointing foot. Narrower Q
is not always better - try to replicate the Q factor that you have on your
current ride.

Kyle

 

[Jeff Wills]

SuperSlinky <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I have extensively Googled this, but I haven't found the answer I was
> looking for. Simply put, do MTB pedals have longer spindles and thus a
> wider final Q-factor compared to road pedals? I'm trying to decide on a
> pedal/shoe combo for a new road bike, and what I've found searching the
> Net is that a narrower Q-factor is preferable, as long as there are no
> problems like smacking the crank arms or stays with your feet. I believe
> I saw somewhere that road pedals result in a narrower Q-factor than MTB
> shoes.
>

Where? Both styles of cleats allow for sideways adjustment,
effectively increasing or decreasing "Q". It's an individual thing- I
adjust my (SPD) cleats so my shoes barely clear the crankarm, but your
particular anatomy may require a different setup.


> The problem I have with road shoes is walking. I really don't want to
> end up with a system that makes walking extremely awkward. MTB pedals
> use smaller cleats that can be recessed into the sole of a MTB or
> touring shoe, making them walkable. My original idea was to standardize
> both my bikes with Time ATACS or Eggbeaters until I remembered the Q-
> factor issue. Here is what I have seen for other choices:
>

The ATAC pedals have 3mm lateral float, which makes your assertion
about low "Q" tougher to understand.

> There are some road SPD pedals, but I don't really like the SPD system
> and want to try something else.
>

And SPD-R is on its way to the dustbin of history.

> Speedplay Frogs, but I saw somewhere that they have extra long spindles,
> but don't know for sure.
>

Speedplay sells spindles in several lengths, to allow for more radical
rotational adjustment (i.e. to compensate for duck feet). I believe
the "standard" spindles are the shortest.

> Use the standard Look system and carry rubber cleat covers.
>

You'll still walk like a duck.

> The new Shimano SPD-SL system is very well liked, but I haven't seen
> anything about using the cleats with walkable shoes. My guess is that
> you can't.
>

Right- The cleats use the Look three-bolt pattern. With the exception
of the Lake CX 115 shoes
( http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?brand=1170&sku=6359 )
no Look-compatible shoes are "walkable", IMO.

> I saw a claim somewhere that there is a new Look system with smaller
> cleats that can be used with walkable shoes. Haven't seen them for sale.
> What do all of you do for the walking dilemma?

I was on a supported tour last week and saw many very-high-end road
bikes (including a couple Serotta Ottrotts) with MTB-style SPD pedals.
I'd guess that the owners preferred walking comfort and double-sided
entry over other factors.

(FWIW: I use Shimano PD-M737 pedals- now 13 years old and still
working perfectly.)

Jeff Wills

 

[Evan Evans]

> I was on a supported tour last week and saw many very-high-end road
> bikes (including a couple Serotta Ottrotts) with MTB-style SPD pedals.
> I'd guess that the owners preferred walking comfort and double-sided
> entry over other factors.
>
> (FWIW: I use Shimano PD-M737 pedals- now 13 years old and still
> working perfectly.)
>
> Jeff Wills

I have spd pedals on my current road & mountain ride. I realy like
them for the above reasons. I have yet to find any short commings with
them. They are much nicer than my time pedals from 1987 I do catch
some greef from roadies about them. What are the problems with spd's?

 

[SuperSlinky]

Kyle.B.H said...

> I don't believe such a correlation exists. Frogs are 55mm from spindle flat
> to center of pedal. Other SPD's I have are about 53mm. Some Looks I have
> are about 53mm. Frogs are orderable in standard (55mm), +1/8, +1/4, and
> +1/2 inch spindle lengths. I actually have an asymmetrical set - left is
> normal, right is +1/4 to accommodate an outward pointing foot. Narrower Q
> is not always better - try to replicate the Q factor that you have on your
> current ride.
>
> Kyle

Thanks. This is good info. I got that particular notion from a story on
the new Crank Bros. Quattro which emphasises a narrow Q. I assumed this
was an issue with MTB pedals or else why would they need a new pedal
design? IMO, a platform is dead weight if you have a tiny cleat like an
Eggbeater, Time ATAC or SPD.

 

[java man (espressopithecus)]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> I believe
> I saw somewhere that road pedals result in a narrower Q-factor than MTB
> shoes.
>
My MTB pedals bring my shoes as close as I'd want them to be to the
crank. If you want a slightly narrower Q-factor, you could move the
cleats over a little. In my case, my shoes would start rubbing against
the crank, but if you have narrow feet, maybe you could pick up several
mm.

I ride 2 road bikes and one MTB, all with SPDs. They don't provide as
positive a connection as some road cleats, but I'm used to them for
years without a single case of "premature release". Racers may have
different experiences -- I don't often need to sprint "balls to the
wall" as they may do.

The SPDs are convenient for walking especially with shoes built for this
purpose.

Rick

 

[Biff Stephens]

I have a Road bike and a MTB and they both have Eggbeaters on them. Freddy
Rodriguez uses Eggbeaters on his bike to race with. Eggbeater now have a
Road specific pedal with a platform. The spindle length is the same (they
weight more by the way).

I would say that is you are thinking of Touring and even possibly wearing
MTB Shoes you will have not issues with Eggbeaters. If it is for racing then
to each his own but Freddy seems to not have a problem with them and I never
have....

Hope this helps...

Biff Stephens




"java man (espressopithecus)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > I believe
> > I saw somewhere that road pedals result in a narrower Q-factor than MTB
> > shoes.
> >
> My MTB pedals bring my shoes as close as I'd want them to be to the
> crank. If you want a slightly narrower Q-factor, you could move the
> cleats over a little. In my case, my shoes would start rubbing against
> the crank, but if you have narrow feet, maybe you could pick up several
> mm.
>
> I ride 2 road bikes and one MTB, all with SPDs. They don't provide as
> positive a connection as some road cleats, but I'm used to them for
> years without a single case of "premature release". Racers may have
> different experiences -- I don't often need to sprint "balls to the
> wall" as they may do.
>
> The SPDs are convenient for walking especially with shoes built for this
> purpose.
>
> Rick

 

[SuperSlinky]

Biff Stephens said...

> I have a Road bike and a MTB and they both have Eggbeaters on them. Freddy
> Rodriguez uses Eggbeaters on his bike to race with. Eggbeater now have a
> Road specific pedal with a platform. The spindle length is the same (they
> weight more by the way).
>
> I would say that is you are thinking of Touring and even possibly wearing
> MTB Shoes you will have not issues with Eggbeaters. If it is for racing then
> to each his own but Freddy seems to not have a problem with them and I never
> have....
>
> Hope this helps...
>
> Biff Stephens

I was on the phone with Crank Bros tech support today and they gave me
all the details. The Quattro has a narrower Q by 2.5mm per pedal. The
MTB Eggbeater has a Q of 55mm, so a difference of about 5%. Not enough
to notice, IMO. The Quattros aren't available yet, but will be soon.
Freddy R. used and won with MTB Eggbeater Triple Ti's but later on
switched to a narrower spindle, a prototype I assume. I was told this
narrower spindle will be made available soon as well.

 

[SuperSlinky]

Jeff Wills said...

> Where? Both styles of cleats allow for sideways adjustment,
> effectively increasing or decreasing "Q". It's an individual thing- I
> adjust my (SPD) cleats so my shoes barely clear the crankarm, but your
> particular anatomy may require a different setup.

Yes, you can adjust the lateral position of the cleat a little, but I
always position the cleat for the best balance. Even though I'm
obsessing a little over Q-factor now, I would rather sacrifice that than
a balanced, natural feel.

> The ATAC pedals have 3mm lateral float, which makes your assertion
> about low "Q" tougher to understand.

Some others have said that too, but I never considered float to have
much to do with Q-factor. I always considered it a comfort issue,
although if you could stop your feet from sliding around I guess you
could use it that way.

> Speedplay sells spindles in several lengths, to allow for more radical
> rotational adjustment (i.e. to compensate for duck feet). I believe
> the "standard" spindles are the shortest.

I talked with Speedplay today and they said there is 1mm difference in
Q-factor between the Frog and the X/2s, so basically there is none.

> > Use the standard Look system and carry rubber cleat covers.
> >
>
> You'll still walk like a duck.

Yep, I love riding bikes, but there are some extremes I won't go to.

> Right- The cleats use the Look three-bolt pattern. With the exception
> of the Lake CX 115 shoes
> ( http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?brand=1170&sku=6359 )
> no Look-compatible shoes are "walkable", IMO.

That shoe actually looks interesting. I wonder why more shoes aren't
like it. Does anybody really enjoy the clog walking syndrome?

> I was on a supported tour last week and saw many very-high-end road
> bikes (including a couple Serotta Ottrotts) with MTB-style SPD pedals.
> I'd guess that the owners preferred walking comfort and double-sided
> entry over other factors.
>
> (FWIW: I use Shimano PD-M737 pedals- now 13 years old and still
> working perfectly.)
>
> Jeff Wills

I knew I couldn't be the only one who saw that the Emperor had no
clothes. I just really don't understand why we should have to give up
walking just to ride a high performance bike. Actually, the more I think
about it, the more I think I may just stay with SPDs. For one thing, I
don't understand the need for a lot of lateral float. I have never had
knee problems and I think if you take the time to get the cleat
positioned just right you shouldn't need float. But I could be wrong.
Maybe some people really do need it. What I don't like about SPDs is
that they can be picky to get in and sticky to get out. They also have
shin seeking protrusions that can be painful if you misstep. But high
quality and reasonably priced SPDs are widely available, like the
Shimano 540s.

 

[Peter Cole]

"Biff Stephens" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:XS9Uc.37933$wo.12682@okepread06...
> I have a Road bike and a MTB and they both have Eggbeaters on them. Freddy
> Rodriguez uses Eggbeaters on his bike to race with. Eggbeater now have a
> Road specific pedal with a platform. The spindle length is the same (they
> weight more by the way).
>
> I would say that is you are thinking of Touring and even possibly wearing
> MTB Shoes you will have not issues with Eggbeaters. If it is for racing then
> to each his own but Freddy seems to not have a problem with them and I never
> have....

A friend recently had a mishap that resulted in a serious injury. He suffered
a low speed endo while riding an off-road trail on his MTB. He had a twisting
fall that broke his lower leg bone in several places just below the knee,
requiring surgery to reconstruct things. His impression was that his
Eggbeaters didn't release on one side, trapping his leg and perhaps causing
the injury. He says that he has heard others make this complaint about
Eggbeaters and is interested in any other similar stories.

 

[S o r n i]

Peter Cole wrote:
> "Biff Stephens" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:XS9Uc.37933$wo.12682@okepread06...
>> I have a Road bike and a MTB and they both have Eggbeaters on them.
>> Freddy Rodriguez uses Eggbeaters on his bike to race with. Eggbeater
>> now have a Road specific pedal with a platform. The spindle length
>> is the same (they weight more by the way).
>>
>> I would say that is you are thinking of Touring and even possibly
>> wearing MTB Shoes you will have not issues with Eggbeaters. If it is
>> for racing then to each his own but Freddy seems to not have a
>> problem with them and I never have....
>
> A friend recently had a mishap that resulted in a serious injury. He
> suffered a low speed endo while riding an off-road trail on his MTB.
> He had a twisting fall that broke his lower leg bone in several
> places just below the knee, requiring surgery to reconstruct things.
> His impression was that his Eggbeaters didn't release on one side,
> trapping his leg and perhaps causing the injury. He says that he has
> heard others make this complaint about Eggbeaters and is interested
> in any other similar stories.

/ANY/ clipless pedal can do that in an off-balance, panic-type situation.
Eggbeaters can be a little bit "sticky" when the cleats are brand-new, but
not nearly as much as SPD-type pedals IME. (Looks can be hard to disengage,
too -- they'd be death-traps off-road!)

Bill "sorry, but your friend's fall was pilot error (IMO)" S.

 

[SuperSlinky]

SuperSlinky said...

> I was on the phone with Crank Bros tech support today and they gave me
> all the details. The Quattro has a narrower Q by 2.5mm per pedal. The
> MTB Eggbeater has a Q of 55mm, so a difference of about 5%. Not enough
> to notice, IMO. The Quattros aren't available yet, but will be soon.
> Freddy R. used and won with MTB Eggbeater Triple Ti's but later on
> switched to a narrower spindle, a prototype I assume. I was told this
> narrower spindle will be made available soon as well.

Oops, that should read 'shorter' spindle.

 

[SuperSlinky]

Peter Cole said...

> A friend recently had a mishap that resulted in a serious injury. He suffered
> a low speed endo while riding an off-road trail on his MTB. He had a twisting
> fall that broke his lower leg bone in several places just below the knee,
> requiring surgery to reconstruct things. His impression was that his
> Eggbeaters didn't release on one side, trapping his leg and perhaps causing
> the injury. He says that he has heard others make this complaint about
> Eggbeaters and is interested in any other similar stories.

That is one thing that scares me about Time and Eggbeater type
mechanisms. If your foot doesn't somehow get to the release angle, the
pedal may not disengage in a fall. I'm still not completely sold on
clipless for off-road. Racers may need them, but I'm not so sure about
the rest of us.

 

[Trevor Jeffrey]

SuperSlinky wrote in message ...
>
>design? IMO, a platform is dead weight if you have a tiny cleat like an
>Eggbeater, Time ATAC or SPD.

It is not dead weight on a road bike if it aerodynamically better.

Trevor

 

[Peter Cole]

"SuperSlinky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Peter Cole said...
>
> > A friend recently had a mishap that resulted in a serious injury. He
suffered
> > a low speed endo while riding an off-road trail on his MTB. He had a
twisting
> > fall that broke his lower leg bone in several places just below the knee,
> > requiring surgery to reconstruct things. His impression was that his
> > Eggbeaters didn't release on one side, trapping his leg and perhaps
causing
> > the injury. He says that he has heard others make this complaint about
> > Eggbeaters and is interested in any other similar stories.
>
> That is one thing that scares me about Time and Eggbeater type
> mechanisms. If your foot doesn't somehow get to the release angle, the
> pedal may not disengage in a fall. I'm still not completely sold on
> clipless for off-road. Racers may need them, but I'm not so sure about
> the rest of us.

Sometimes apparently shoe tread can hinder release. I read at least one report
of a guy who felt his large feet created problems with Eggbeaters when his
toes hitting the crank prevented reaching release angle. I don't know how
likely this is, but my friend has large feet (48). I use SPD type only, always
"multi-release" and have never trapped a foot in a crash except for the brief
ride I took with "single-release" cleats. I have even larger feet (51).
Perhaps it was a toe interference issue for me as well, I didn't experiment
further. I suppose, upon reflection, that, given the right circumstances: foot
twisting in the right direction, crank in the right (wrong) spot, the heel
could be prevented from rotating to release by the crank. Eggbeaters
supposedly have a 15-20 deg release angle. Multi-release SPD have a "roll"
release as well as the twist release, perhaps that prevents this kind of
thing?

 

[SuperSlinky]

Peter Cole said...

> Sometimes apparently shoe tread can hinder release. I read at least one report
> of a guy who felt his large feet created problems with Eggbeaters when his
> toes hitting the crank prevented reaching release angle. I don't know how
> likely this is, but my friend has large feet (48). I use SPD type only, always
> "multi-release" and have never trapped a foot in a crash except for the brief
> ride I took with "single-release" cleats. I have even larger feet (51).
> Perhaps it was a toe interference issue for me as well, I didn't experiment
> further. I suppose, upon reflection, that, given the right circumstances: foot
> twisting in the right direction, crank in the right (wrong) spot, the heel
> could be prevented from rotating to release by the crank. Eggbeaters
> supposedly have a 15-20 deg release angle. Multi-release SPD have a "roll"
> release as well as the twist release, perhaps that prevents this kind of
> thing?

That would be my guess, but the knock against multi-release cleats is
that they sometimes release when you don't want them to.

 

[Booker C. Bense]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <TIqUc.140415$8_6.36967@attbi_s04>,
Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
>"SuperSlinky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Peter Cole said...
>>
>> > A friend recently had a mishap that resulted in a serious injury. He
>suffered
>> > a low speed endo while riding an off-road trail on his MTB.

[snip]

>>
>> That is one thing that scares me about Time and Eggbeater type
>> mechanisms. If your foot doesn't somehow get to the release angle, the
>> pedal may not disengage in a fall.

_ That's the big difference in my experience between Eggbeaters
and SPD's. If you pull hard enough you can rip straight out
of SPD's, but you can't with eggbeaters. You have to twist
to release. It took me a few rides and falls to unlearn my SPD habits.
In my case once the "twist to release" became an unthinking habit I
stopped having problems. If you've been riding SPD's a long time
and switch to eggbeaters this is something to keep in mind.

_ Booker C. Bense



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