My contribution to the no comp. helmets campaign - Esp. suited for MPs



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On 23/1/04 11:57 am, in article [email protected], "Peter
Fox" <[email protected]> wrote:

> 4 reasons why compulsory helmets are bad.
>
> <http://www.eminent.demon.co.uk/nohelmets.htm>
>
> It is made as simple as possible so you can send it to your MP.
>

I'd put them in the following order

3,2,1,4 and change 1 to be 'cycle use has dropped' rather than 'helmets don't work'

This gets the points across as:

1. It is trying to solve a small problem
2. It is ineffective at doing so
3. It is actually counterproductive in exacerbating a bigger problem
4. Even if it was brought in, it is unenforceable.
 
"Peter Fox" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> 4 reasons why compulsory helmets are bad.
>
> <http://www.eminent.demon.co.uk/nohelmets.htm>
>
> It is made as simple as possible so you can send it to your MP.
>
>
> --
> PETER FOX Not the same since the bolt company screwed up
> [email protected]

It seems to me like another "Law" that the Police will not enforce. How many people do you see
driving with fog lights on ? And how many of them get stopped and charged by the Police ?

Graham
 
> 4 reasons why compulsory helmets are bad.
>
> <http://www.eminent.demon.co.uk/nohelmets.htm>
>
> It is made as simple as possible so you can send it to your MP.

Wow, that was good. Do you remember any of the details about "A study of cycling accidents in London
shows no benefits from increased helmet use". Haven't come across it before.

Mark.
 
On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:34:12 +0000 (UTC), Graham
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> "Peter Fox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> 4 reasons why compulsory helmets are bad.
>>
>> <http://www.eminent.demon.co.uk/nohelmets.htm>
>>
>> It is made as simple as possible so you can send it to your MP.
>>
> It seems to me like another "Law" that the Police will not enforce. How many people do you see
> driving with fog lights on ? And how many of them get stopped and charged by the Police ?

The police may not enforce this law effectively but if the use of private security guards and
community support officers increases then children not wearing helmets which be much easier targets
than cars with foglights on.

Colin
--
 
Graham wrote:
> "Peter Fox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> 4 reasons why compulsory helmets are bad.
>>
>> <http://www.eminent.demon.co.uk/nohelmets.htm>
>>
>> It is made as simple as possible so you can send it to your MP.
>>
>>
>> --
>> PETER FOX Not the same since the bolt company screwed up
>> [email protected]

>
> It seems to me like another "Law" that the Police will not enforce. How many people do you see
> driving with fog lights on ? And how many of them get stopped and charged by the Police ?
>
> Graham

Or illegal number plates, going OT for a second Peter, have you ever heard of a cyclist from Witham
called Paul Waller ? He'd be in his early to mid thirties now. I haven't seen nor heard from him for
over 10 years.

--
The Reply & From email addresses are checked rarely. http://www.mseries.freeserve.co.uk
 
"Graham" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> It seems to me like another "Law" that the Police will not enforce. How many people do you see
> driving with fog lights on ? And how many of them
get
> stopped and charged by the Police ?

It won't be the police - it is one of the many extra penalties that the private "enforcers" will be
allowed to give out - along with lights checking and pavement cycling - and I think that they will
find it easier to get their quotas from cyclists than from cars.

Eddie Dubourg

--
Sigseg: trying to do normal exit
 
Following on from Mark Thompson's message. . .

>Wow, that was good. Do you remember any of the details about "A study of cycling accidents in
>London shows no benefits from increased helmet use". Haven't come across it before.
Go to John Franklin's page - It is his work.

--
PETER FOX Not the same since the bolt company screwed up
[email protected]
 
Greetings,

personally, since I have been regularly commuting through London traffic for the past 5 years or so,
I have always worn a helmet. I've been wiped out twice by cagers, and on each occasion (both times
over the handlebars) I am confident that a helmet has saved me from more serious injury.

Whilst, as a police officer myself, I feel that ticketing cyclists for a lack of helmets would be a
waste of time and resources, I feel the rabid hatred of helmets displayed by some posters to this NG
is wrong, and the encouragement of safe cycling should include a push for all to wear helmets.

I don't note the same people arguing for the removal of the requirement for a helmet on a motorbike.
I know it can be argued that a motorbike can go far faster then a bicycle, but even with my low
level of fitness I can manage 20+ mph on the way to work, and don't think a close encounter of the
pavement kind with my head is survivable without protection.

T.T.F.N.

SPENNY

"Peter Fox" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> 4 reasons why compulsory helmets are bad.
>
> <http://www.eminent.demon.co.uk/nohelmets.htm>
>
> It is made as simple as possible so you can send it to your MP.
>
>
> --
> PETER FOX Not the same since the bolt company screwed up
> [email protected]
 
Spencer Bullen wrote:

> even with my low level of fitness I can manage 20+ mph on the way to work, and don't think a close
> encounter of the pavement kind with my head is survivable without protection.

The current relatively low death rate of cyclists suggests that your opinion is somewhat at
variariace with reality.

James
 
Colin Blackburn wrote:

> The police may not enforce this law effectively but

but it will be used by schools and petty bureaucrats to effectively outlaw cycling by
children anyway.

James
 
Spencer Bullen wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> personally, since I have been regularly commuting through London traffic for the past 5 years or
> so, I have always worn a helmet. I've been wiped out twice by cagers, and on each occasion (both
> times over the handlebars) I am confident that a helmet has saved me from more serious injury.
>
> Whilst, as a police officer myself, I feel that ticketing cyclists for a lack of helmets would be
> a waste of time and resources, I feel the rabid hatred of helmets displayed by some posters to
> this NG is wrong, and the encouragement of safe cycling should include a push for all to wear
> helmets.

Please read the data presented at www.cyclehelmets.org and then consider whether *compulsion* is a
good thing.

Voluntary wearing of helmets isn't an issue. The majority of the "anti compulsion" regulars on the
newsgroup are helmet wearers, but they know the limited protection that the helmet offers.

> I don't note the same people arguing for the removal of the requirement for a helmet on a
> motorbike.

Irrelevant to the debate. Children can't legally ride a motorcycle on the road, helmet or not.

> I know it
can be argued
> that a motorbike can go far faster then a bicycle, but even with my low level of fitness I can
> manage 20+ mph on the way to work, and don't think a close encounter of the pavement kind with my
> head is survivable without protection.

Firstly, the accident statistics do not suggest there is a problem which needs fixing. The
statistics which do exist suggest that as a cyclist your life expectancy is raised by several years,
even taking into account the miniscule chance that you'll die in an accident.

Secondly, a cycle helmet isn't designed to protect in a 20+mph accident.

Thirdly, making cycling appear to be a dangerous activity, requiring compulsory safety
clothing, will deter many casual cyclists. Consequences for the population's health as a whole
is bad. (British Medical Association support that view - hardly an organisation with an axe to
grind on helmets).
 
On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 22:41:08 -0000, "Spencer Bullen"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Whilst, as a police officer myself, I feel that ticketing cyclists for a lack of helmets would be a
>waste of time and resources, I feel the rabid hatred of helmets displayed by some posters to this
>NG is wrong, and the encouragement of safe cycling should include a push for all to wear helmets.

First, who displays rabid hatred of helmets? Most of us are strongly opposed ot the idea of
compulsion, for goiod and sufficient reasons, but I don't know anybody who wastes energy actually
hating the plastic hats, only the imbeciles who pretend they are a fantastically effective solution
to the (greatly exaggerated) danger of cycling.

Second, you have to be very careful promoting helmets. There is good evidence that poeple ride
less carefully when helmeted, and are more ikely to experience precisely the kind of crash about
which they are worried. Helmets are designed for low-speed falls, the way to rpotect youself
against cagers is nothing to do with plastic hats and everythign to do with roadcraft, maintenance
and the like.

>I don't note the same people arguing for the removal of the requirement for a helmet on a
>motorbike.

Have you asked? In some states in the US they repealed the helmet law for motorcyclists. Guess what?
Head injury and death rates went down. There is also a huge difference between the actual protective
effect of a motorcycle helmet and a cycle helmet.

>I know it can be argued that a motorbike can go far faster then a bicycle, but even with my low
>level of fitness I can manage 20+ mph on the way to work, and don't think a close encounter of the
>pavement kind with my head is survivable without protection.

In which supposition you are, I'm afraid, demonstrably wrong. Cyclists have been surviving these
crashes for a century and more. A friend of mine aged 70 did a header after hitting a pothole at
speed, and survived thanks to the protective effect of his Mk. 1 standard-issue skull. Another 70-year-
old, in Reading, died in a similar crash despite wearing a helmet. In higher speed crashes helmets
do not make the difference between life and death. The reasons are discussed in recent reports like
that by Curnow, you can read about it on <http://www.cyclehelmets.org>

Focus on this, though: wherever you go in the world, increasing helmet use has not resulted in
reduced head injury rates, whether the increase is through compulsion or not. If we acknoweledge
that helmets do prevent some injuries, then we must account for the mechanism by which this benefit
evaporates at the popualtion level. Or at least, if we intend to compel people to wear helmets, we
have to account for it and come up with a mechanism to prevent it. Otherwise all we get is a massive
reduction in cycling for no benefit at all, as they have in Australia, New Zealand and parts of
Canada and the US.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
 
I agree with the sentiments that it is a daft law and unenforceable. I will continue to wear my helmet whenever I ride my bike though. If nothing else it keeps all the **** from the road out of my hair ;-)

cheers, dave
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"NC" <[email protected]> writes:

> Please read the data presented at www.cyclehelmets.org and then consider whether *compulsion* is a
> good thing.

Other issues: different riding positions (much more upright on a normal motorbike), and hot/sweaty
(working hard) on a bike vs cold (sitting still + windchill) on a motorbike. Both are materially
relevant to helmet wearing.

--
Nick Kew
 
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:53:54 GMT, davebee
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I agree with the sentiments that it is a daft law and unenforceable. I will continue to wear my
>helmet whenever I ride my bike though. If nothing else it keeps all the **** from the road out of
>my hair ;-)
>
>cheers, dave

That's what mudguards were invented for.
 
On 24/1/04 8:09 pm, in article [email protected],
"[Not Responding]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:53:54 GMT, davebee <[email protected]> wrote:

>> I agree with the sentiments that it is a daft law and unenforceable. I will continue to wear my
>> helmet whenever I ride my bike though. If nothing else it keeps all the **** from the road out of
>> my hair ;-)

> That's what mudguards were invented for.

Cue vision of N-R cycling along with a pair of best SKS on his head to keep the **** out of
his hair ;-)
 
Spencer Bullen thought it would be good to say:

> Greetings,
>
> personally, since I have been regularly commuting through London traffic for the past 5 years or
> so, I have always worn a helmet. I've been wiped out twice by cagers, and on each occasion (both
> times over the handlebars) I am confident that a helmet has saved me from more serious injury.

Helmets do protect you from minor injuries. I hope there's no-one arguing against that.

> Whilst, as a police officer myself, I feel that ticketing cyclists for a lack of helmets would be
> a waste of time and resources, I feel the rabid hatred of helmets displayed by some posters to
> this NG is wrong, and the encouragement of safe cycling should include a push for all to wear
> helmets.

I don't actually have a problem with that. Any push towards greater safety is wonderful. It's the
fact that people are pushing it as a way to save lives (which, as far as I can tell from personal
experience, is false) and as something that should be compulsory (which would make cycling even less
popular, hence increasing injury/fatality by increasing cars/pedestrians).

> I don't note the same people arguing for the removal of the requirement for a helmet on a
> motorbike. I know it can be argued that a motorbike can go far faster then a bicycle, but even
> with my low level of fitness I can manage 20+ mph on the way to work, and don't think a close
> encounter of the pavement kind with my head is survivable without protection.

It's not survivable with protection either, due to momentum issues, which gave me brain damage on
the rebound, not on impact. Wear helmets, if you want. Wonderful for protection against cuts and
bruises. Just don't get that confused with "life-protecting". And, by the way, I wish the compulsory
use of helmets for motorbikes would go as well: I was so looking forward to riding on a motorbike
along the coast of North West Wales - the quiet roads, of course. Anyone deciding to take that route
should, of course, be willing to be low on the list of hospital treatment for head injury. But it
should be their choice: they don't hurt anyone else by making it.

Pip
 
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