Nailed by Hit and Run



On Feb 12, 11:48 am, Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> I'd guess you're right that hit & run cold cases are seldom solved.
> I'd add though that I doubt most fatal hit & runs ever achieve "cold
> case" status. Most that can be are solved well before that time.
>

....
[ and Zoot wrote:]
> > I'm not blaming systemic investigative lethargy, it's a desensitised
> > and automobile dependent society's mass shrug that's the true crime.
> > --
> > zk

>
> We must agree to disagree here because I don't see that "mass shrug"
> being given any more or less often in cases involving death by motor
> vehicle than I see it happening in any other type of homicide. I think
> it's more a matter of human nature- "It didn't happen to me or my
> loved one"- than any dependence on automobiles.


I think the "mass shrug" may occur before the fact. That is, I think
it's common for people to drive in a way that puts others at serious
risk, and not give much of a damn about it. I've certainly been put
in significant danger, purposely, by many drivers, while riding my
bike, riding my motorcycle and driving my car.

And I think those people are likely to run if they do hit someone.

But my question is, what, if anything, can be done about hit & run
drivers?

Riley Geary (an expert on bike safety data) has pointed out that a
very large percentage of bike fatalities involve hit & run motorists.
I know our last area bike fatality was a hit & run. This long-time
bike commuter was killed on a road with very wide lanes. He was
leaving work late at night as usual, well lit, riding properly. (And
his certified hat did not save his life.)

Our bike club offered a reward through the local police, but that's
made no difference.

What _can_ be done, either before or after the fact? Or must we
accept that the best way to murder someone is by motor vehicle?

- Frank Krygowski
 
Franks asks

>What _can_ be done, either before or after the fact?
>Or must we accept that the best way to murder
>someone is by motor vehicle?


Here's some thoughts;

Laws must be written to make government culpable.

Put the issuing of operator endorsements into the private sector.

Redefine impaired driving. Anyone maneuvering 2 tons with a Motorola
in one hand and a Big Mac in the other is operating impaired.

After so many points, literally flag an offenders car with a flag. Get
caught driving without your flag, bye bye, your pointed out.

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin
 
On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 18:27:53 -0500 in rec.bicycles.misc,
[email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:

> The Libertarian POV is simple, a government issued licenses, of any
> sort, isn't worth the paper it's printed on.


Ah, another libertarian crank for the killfile!

Libertarians: People who want to sink the lifeboat we all live
in because they think their political philosophy will enable them
to walk on water. --- Mike Doogan

PLONK.
 
Dennis P. Harris wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 18:27:53 -0500 in rec.bicycles.misc,
> [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:
>
>> The Libertarian POV is simple, a government issued licenses, of any
>> sort, isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

>
> Ah, another libertarian crank for the killfile!
>
> Libertarians: People who want to sink the lifeboat we all live
> in because they think their political philosophy will enable them
> to walk on water.


I will take a true libertarian any day over a fascist. Better to be
half-starving in the street but free, than to be half-starving in servitude.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:50:27 -0500 in rec.bicycles.misc, Luke
<[email protected]> wrote:

> One can still favor bicycling lanes and concede that they can be poorly
> designed.


They are always poorly designed, because they are designed to
segregate cyclists.
 
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:02:19 -0600, Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Dennis P. Harris wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 18:27:53 -0500 in rec.bicycles.misc,
>> [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:
>>
>>> The Libertarian POV is simple, a government issued licenses, of any
>>> sort, isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

>>
>> Ah, another libertarian crank for the killfile!
>>
>> Libertarians: People who want to sink the lifeboat we all live
>> in because they think their political philosophy will enable them
>> to walk on water.

>
>I will take a true libertarian any day over a fascist. Better to be
>half-starving in the street but free, than to be half-starving in servitude.


Well yes, but I'd rather have a third choice. Libertarians never seem
to realize that government is all we have to defend us from corporate
power. Of course, it almost never does that, but at least it has the
ablility.
 
On Feb 9, 5:44 pm, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] top-moronic posted:
>
> > Man up dude. You took a hit and your boy needs to see walk it off.
> > Otherwise hemay be in danger of turning gay

>
> Little Jimmy Buttpacker sets the asswipe bar to a new high. LOL


I would argue that continuing to use a derogatory term for a gay man
to /describe/ this guy is actually much worse, particularly since you
do it on an ongoing basis.

But that's just me.
 
Mr. Doogan pokes me in the eye then "hides" behind killfile....or does
he?

>Ah, another libertarian crank for the killfile!
>Libertarians: People who want to sink the lifeboat we all
>live
>in because they think their political philosophy will enable them
>to walk on water. --- Mike Doogan
>PLONK.


Anyone see the irony? I really don't think anyone whose parable
includes a "lifeboat" is in a position to pick and choose their
rescuer! :)

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin
 
I'm tired...2 cups of coffee later and now I see (read) _Mr. Harris_
has killedfiled me and he was quoting one Mike Doogan.
Oh well, I don't always comprehend clearly but at least I can walk on
water! (I got that correct, right?)

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin
 
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:43:15 -0800 (PST), [email protected] wrote:

>What _can_ be done, either before or after the fact? Or must we
>accept that the best way to murder someone is by motor vehicle?


I think in the near future it will be trivial to be able to video all
your rides. We'll have probably inexpensive pencil video cams as one
of the helmet options.

Once that happens, and especially after it's caught a few drivers, and
more people wear them, then I suspect incidents will go down.

I'm not that high tech, and I video about half of my rides. I get
excellent resolution (able to read a license plate) with a cam that
goes for less than $130. I just duct tape it rather easily to a
'Gorilla-Pod'(tm)

<http://www.brmsstore.com/cgi-upload/ecomm4/ecomm4_product/65684_L.jpg>
 
Dennis P. Harris wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:50:27 -0500 in rec.bicycles.misc, Luke
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> One can still favor bicycling lanes and concede that they can be poorly
>> designed.

>
> They are always poorly designed, because they are designed to
> segregate cyclists.
>

Do not mention this to Bill Z! ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
On Feb 12, 6:43 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 12, 11:48 am, Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I'd guess you're right that hit & run cold cases are seldom solved.
> > I'd add though that I doubt most fatal hit & runs ever achieve "cold
> > case" status. Most that can be are solved well before that time.

>
> ...
>
> [ and Zoot wrote:]
> > > I'm not blaming systemic investigative lethargy, it's a desensitised
> > > and automobile dependent society's mass shrug that's the true crime.
> > > --
> > > zk

>
> > We must agree to disagree here because I don't see that "mass shrug"
> > being given any more or less often in cases involving death by motor
> > vehicle than I see it happening in any other type of homicide. I think
> > it's more a matter of human nature- "It didn't happen to me or my
> > loved one"- than any dependence on automobiles.

>
> I think the "mass shrug" may occur before the fact.  That is, I think
> it's common for people to drive in a way that puts others at serious
> risk, and not give much of a damn about it.  I've certainly been put
> in significant danger, purposely, by many drivers, while riding my
> bike, riding my motorcycle and driving my car.
>
> And I think those people are likely to run if they do hit someone.
>
> But my question is, what, if anything, can be done about hit & run
> drivers?
>
> Riley Geary (an expert on bike safety data) has pointed out that a
> very large percentage of bike fatalities involve hit & run motorists.
> I know our last area bike fatality was a hit & run.  This long-time
> bike commuter was killed on a road with very wide lanes.  He was
> leaving work late at night as usual, well lit, riding properly.  (And
> his certified hat did not save his life.)
>
> Our bike club offered a reward through the local police, but that's
> made no difference.
>
> What _can_ be done, either before or after the fact?  Or must we
> accept that the best way to murder someone is by motor vehicle?
>
> - Frank Krygowski


As bleak as it may sound, there really isn't much that *can* be done
to apprehend those hit & run drivers that aren't already being caught.
Technology isn't the answer. A suggestion to always carry a camera is
floated here from time to time. If the victim of a hit & run is able
to focus a camera and take a picture of the fleeing vehicle they would
certainly be able to just read the darned plate. Some have suggested
continuously running videocams. Ever see a video shot from inside a
3000 lb. vehicle as it is struck by another 3000 pounder? Even when
the video keeps rolling the images are next to useless. Imagine how
much more scrambled the video from a camera mounted on a 30 lb bike
with a 170 lb rider will be. Kill switches and fuel cutoffs on all
vehicles could conceivably eliminate the "run" in hit & run but they
also have unintended safety consequences. Vehicles disabled in
property damage crashes can and do cause other more serious
accidents.
More cops aren't the answer either unless one is willing to live with
a cop on every corner. Even if one is willing to live like that, where
are we going to recruit all these millions of new police and how will
we pay their salaries?
Tougher sentences for those that are caught won't help catch those
that get away.
The best we can do is pay close attention to our surroundings whenever
we're on the road.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

P.S.- As an aside and not trying to be contentious, it's hyperbole to
say using a motor vehicle is the "best way to murder someone".
Intentional murder by car is so rare that when it happens it makes
national headlines, witness the woman in Texas a few years ago that
used her Mercedes to shortcut a nasty divorce proceeding.
 
On Feb 12, 9:27 pm, [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:
> Franks asks
>
> >What _can_ be done, either before or after the fact?
> >Or must we accept that the best way to murder
> >someone is by motor vehicle?

>
> Here's some thoughts;
>
>  Laws must be written to make government culpable.
>
>  Put the issuing of operator endorsements into the private sector.
>
>  Redefine impaired driving.   Anyone maneuvering 2 tons with a Motorola
> in one hand and a Big Mac in the other is operating impaired.  
>
>  After so many points, literally flag an offenders car with a flag.  Get
> caught driving without your flag, bye bye, your pointed out.  
>
> Best Regards - Mike Baldwin


Assume you have your new laws, driver's licenses are being issued by
private companies, and you have a huge stockpile of flags. How is any
of that going to keep the unlicensed driver from getting behind the
wheel?

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:25:39 -0600 in rec.bicycles.misc, Tom
Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

> They are always poorly designed, because they are designed to
> > segregate cyclists.
> >

> Do not mention this to Bill Z! ;)
>

doesn't matter, he's in my killfile for that reason.
 
On Feb 14, 12:15 am, Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> If the victim of a hit & run is able
> to focus a camera and take a picture of the fleeing vehicle they would
> certainly be able to just read the darned plate.


<sigh> It's worse than that.

Once, many years ago, I was purposely "brushed" by a car. It was a
deserted road, no buildings, no other traffic, and the car approaching
from behind blared his horn loud and long before grazing me and my
bike. It was obviously deliberate (and the _only_ really bad
experience I've ever had in 35 years of biking).

I kept control of the bike and got most of the license plate number.
I said it over out loud a few times to burn it into my brain - then,
astonishingly, I saw the next building (about 1/4 mile from the
impact) was a State Highway Patrol station!

Naturally I pulled in. The patrolmen took it _very_ seriously, and
were very sympathetic. (In fact, one guy's son was on a bike racing
team.) They immediately radioed out my description of the car...

.... but no plate number. In just that 1/4 mile, the number was gone
from my brain. The cop who spent the most time with me (the one with
the racer son) even tried jogging my memory by asking about shapes of
letters, letters vs. numbers, etc., all to no avail.

I was uninjured, except for a slight scratch and some torn lycra, but
the shock of the situation was enough to destroy my memory of the
most important detail. I sympathize with anyone who's had to deal
with worse.

Part of the problem, in a sense, is that such incidents are so
incredibly rare. Nobody gets practice in dealing with it. No
technological system would be worth the cost or hassle, because it
would go unused until it died.

But the flip side of that coin is: Fortunately, such incidents are
incredibly rare. It doesn't pay to worry about them unless it
actually happens to you.

- Frank Krygowski
 
On Feb 14, 12:15 am, Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 12, 6:43 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 12, 11:48 am, Bob <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > I'd guess you're right that hit & run cold cases are seldom solved.
> > > I'd add though that I doubt most fatal hit & runs ever achieve "cold
> > > case" status. Most that can be are solved well before that time.

>
> > ...

>
> > [ and Zoot wrote:]
> > > > I'm not blaming systemic investigative lethargy, it's a desensitised
> > > > and automobile dependent society's mass shrug that's the true crime.
> > > > --
> > > > zk

>
> > > We must agree to disagree here because I don't see that "mass shrug"
> > > being given any more or less often in cases involving death by motor
> > > vehicle than I see it happening in any other type of homicide. I think
> > > it's more a matter of human nature- "It didn't happen to me or my
> > > loved one"- than any dependence on automobiles.

>
> > I think the "mass shrug" may occur before the fact. That is, I think
> > it's common for people to drive in a way that puts others at serious
> > risk, and not give much of a damn about it. I've certainly been put
> > in significant danger, purposely, by many drivers, while riding my
> > bike, riding my motorcycle and driving my car.

>
> > And I think those people are likely to run if they do hit someone.

>
> > But my question is, what, if anything, can be done about hit & run
> > drivers?

>
> > Riley Geary (an expert on bike safety data) has pointed out that a
> > very large percentage of bike fatalities involve hit & run motorists....

>
> > What _can_ be done, either before or after the fact? Or must we
> > accept that the best way to murder someone is by motor vehicle?

>


>
> P.S.- As an aside and not trying to be contentious, it's hyperbole to
> say using a motor vehicle is the "best way to murder someone".
> Intentional murder by car is so rare that when it happens it makes
> national headlines, witness the woman in Texas a few years ago that
> used her Mercedes to shortcut a nasty divorce proceeding.


First, I don't want to overstate the problem. I recently found more
data on miles ridden between bike fatalities, ranging from 5.6 million
miles riding (Italy) to 38.8 million mile riding (Netherlands) for
every bike fatality. The median value is about 17 million miles.
Death while cycling is VERY rare.

But ISTR that Riley Geary found about half of US bike fatalities are
by hit & runs, never caught. (His site's down right now.) Even for
those that are not hit & runs, the driver gets to tell his story, and
most people in the system are primed to be sympathetic with a poor
motorist who had a crazy bicyclist "weave all over the road right in
front of me"... or words to that effect.

I agree murder by car is rare. But compared to gunshot, stabbing,
bludgeoning, beating, strangling, poisoning, etc. I think murder by
car has the greatest chance of getting off either completely free, or
with a small fine an ineffectual suspension of a driver's license.

- Frank Krygowski
 
Mr. Hunt had to ask

>Assume you have your new laws, driver's licenses are being
>issued by private companies, and you have a huge stockpile
>of flags. How is any of that going to keep
>the unlicensed driver from getting behind the wheel?


...gee, maybe they should be executed when their license is originally
revoked...

Again I'll state, the "reward of freedom is responsibility". So that
we may all preserve what freedoms we still enjoy today, we should
recognize the immediate need for stiffer penalties for those among us
who choose the lesser path.

We need to somehow convince the overwhelming majority of potential
first time offenders (of any crime) that there's no future in becoming a
repeat offender.

We've all seen the stories. A school principal gets tough, graduation
rates go up, drop-out rate goes down. A county sheriff gets tough,
crime drops (perps move)

Some may suggest getting tough shows little compassion. I disagree.
What could possibly be more compassionate than saving a mis-guided
individuals from themselves and a life spent in and out of prison?

Best Regards - Mike Baldwin
 
On Feb 14, 5:13 pm, [email protected] (Michael Baldwin) wrote:
> Mr. Hunt had to ask
>
> >Assume you have your new laws, driver's licenses are being
> >issued by private companies, and you have a huge stockpile
> >of flags. How is any of that going to keep
> >the unlicensed driver from getting behind the wheel?

>
>  ...gee,  maybe they should be executed when their license is originally
> revoked...
>
>  Again I'll state, the "reward of freedom is responsibility".  So that
> we may all preserve what freedoms we still enjoy today, we should
> recognize the immediate need for stiffer penalties for those among us
> who choose the lesser path.
>
>   We need to somehow convince the overwhelming majority of potential
> first time offenders (of any crime) that there's no future in becoming a
> repeat offender.
>
>  We've all seen the stories.  A school principal gets tough,  graduation
> rates go up, drop-out rate goes down.  A county sheriff gets tough,
> crime drops (perps move)  
>
>  Some may suggest getting tough shows little compassion.  I disagree.
> What could possibly be more compassionate than saving a mis-guided
> individuals from themselves and a life spent in and out of prison?
>
> Best Regards - Mike Baldwin


I agree with all that you've said, at least that part after you
removed your tongue from your cheek. What I still don't understand
though is how "passing laws to make government culpable" or
privatizing the licensing process is going to make an iota of
difference. Heck, I'm not even sure what you mean by "making
government culpable". ISTM that if one increases the responsibility of
government one simultaneously *decreases* personal responsibility.
That seems an odd position for a professed libertarian.

Regards,
Bob Hunt
 
Michael Baldwin writes:

>> Assume you have your new laws, driver's licenses are being issued
>> by private companies, and you have a huge stockpile of flags. How
>> is any of that going to keep the unlicensed driver from getting
>> behind the wheel?


> ...gee, maybe they should be executed when their license is
> originally revoked...


> Again I'll state, the "reward of freedom is responsibility". So
> that we may all preserve what freedoms we still enjoy today, we
> should recognize the immediate need for stiffer penalties for those
> among us who choose the lesser path.


I don't believe that is the answer. Stiffer penalties does not do
much. What we need is better enforcement of the laws we have. As it
is, they are often enforced where they make the biggest news, to make
people feel they are safe.

> We need to somehow convince the overwhelming majority of potential
> first time offenders (of any crime) that there's no future in
> becoming a repeat offender.


Enforcement!

> We've all seen the stories. A school principal gets tough,
> graduation rates go up, drop-out rate goes down. A county sheriff
> gets tough, crime drops (perps move)


What means "tough"? I think the correlation is more with enforcement
than stiffer penalties.

> Some may suggest getting tough shows little compassion. I disagree.
> What could possibly be more compassionate than saving a mis-guided
> individuals from themselves and a life spent in and out of prison?


I believe otherwise and have seen the effects. The same goes for
management where personal management presence produces more positive
effects than incentive programs and penalties.

> Best Regards - Mike Baldwin


Your "best regards" seem to be about punishment rather than leadership.

Jobst Brandt
 
In article
<eadc4599-ecf7-46ea-90f2-69039087f592@d70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
[email protected] wrote:

> On Feb 14, 12:15 am, Bob <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > If the victim of a hit & run is able
> > to focus a camera and take a picture of the fleeing vehicle they would
> > certainly be able to just read the darned plate.

>
> <sigh> It's worse than that.
>
> Once, many years ago, I was purposely "brushed" by a car. It was a
> deserted road, no buildings, no other traffic, and the car approaching
> from behind blared his horn loud and long before grazing me and my
> bike. It was obviously deliberate (and the _only_ really bad
> experience I've ever had in 35 years of biking).
>
> I kept control of the bike and got most of the license plate number.
> I said it over out loud a few times to burn it into my brain - then,
> astonishingly, I saw the next building (about 1/4 mile from the
> impact) was a State Highway Patrol station!
>
> Naturally I pulled in. The patrolmen took it _very_ seriously, and
> were very sympathetic. (In fact, one guy's son was on a bike racing
> team.) They immediately radioed out my description of the car...
>
> ... but no plate number. In just that 1/4 mile, the number was gone
> from my brain. The cop who spent the most time with me (the one with
> the racer son) even tried jogging my memory by asking about shapes of
> letters, letters vs. numbers, etc., all to no avail.


situaton like that: gouge it into your skin with a fingernail. I'm
serious. You'll get a nice alphanumeric welt that'll last long enough to
be useful.