new Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheel buckled after 1 week

[ScienceIsCool]

Yeah, it does sound kind of weak... But the question is why do some wheels arrive in the shop with poor tension/out of true after shipping. From what I know of vibration, this is one possible mechanism and I was just trying to explain what the mechanism is. Heck, vibration loosens off bolts all the time.

However, there could be other explanations. It could be that the wheel left the factory true, but in poor tension because the rim isn't straight. In this case, the wheel will never be right no matter how much tensioning and truing you do. Poor quality.

Or, maybe the wheel wasn't trued properly before it left the factory. I doubt this explanation though.

And perhaps there's some other mechanism at play during shipping? I don't think it's enough to simply say "poor quality". We need to define what that quality is and why it creates a poor wheel. For example, the rim that isn't straight, which leads to poor tension, which leads to an out of true wheel and frequent truing. That's poor quality.

John Swanson
www.bikephysics.com

 

[SynapseGH]

Or, maybe the wheel wasn't trued properly before it left the factory. I doubt this explanation though.

Just a few thoughts / observations based on my personal experience...

I used to work in a bike shop as a mechanic and their wheelbuilder and now build wheels for myself, my wife (a triathlete) and friends... and I have to say that assuming a wheel will come from the factory perfectly tensioned and trued is a huge assumption.

Case in point, we just bought a set of Zipp 606 wheels for my wife and for that price you would think they would be perfect. Out of habit, before riding on them I checked the spokes for uniform tension and while the wheel was true, the spokes were almost wildly uneven in tension and I can guarantee that after a couple of rides (if not the first ride) the wheel would have been out of true. And don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with the wheels... I think they are fantastic. They just needed some tweaking but in my opinion almost all new wheels do.

Second case in point, I recently bought a Cannondale Synapse that came with Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels and I checked them right after I bought it. While vastly better in terms of overall tension, the spokes overall were significantly under-tensioned based on Mavic's recommended tension for this wheel. Again, while true at the time I can guarantee that if I hadn't increased the tension to close to the maximum recommended the wheel would have come out of true in short order, especially given that I weigh about 230 lbs. and can put some stress on a wheel.

To minimize costs, most wheels are machine built and while the machine will do a decent job, my experience is that machine-built wheels tend to focus on wheels being true and almost completely ignore the evenness of spoke tension (insofar as you can get them even... the spokes in every wheel will be tensioned differently due to slight differences in rims and spokes used in each wheel). It is common to find machine built wheels with one or two spokes on a side at a significantly higher tension and the others on that same side undertensioned to make up for it (though this is less common in low spoke count wheels).

So, unless your wheels are HANDBUILT or hand-checked (and by someone that knows what they are doing at that), I would take nothing for granted with respect to spoke tension or wheel true-ness. Even a handbuilt wheel built by someone with a hangover or just having a bad day may not be built perfectly... your best bet is to find someone that knows what they are doing and have them go over your wheels. That is really the the only way you can guarantee your wheels will perform to their full potential.

 

[artemidorus]

Do wheel-building machines provide adequate stress relief? In addition to retensioning, should all elbow-type spokes on a machine-built wheel be stress-relieved, and the wheel retrued, before use?

 

[SynapseGH]

Do wheel-building machines provide adequate stress relief? In addition to retensioning, should all elbow-type spokes on a machine-built wheel be stress-relieved, and the wheel retrued, before use?

I have heard of wheel-building machines that apply pressure to the rims (in the same way riding a wheel applies pressure) to help seat the spokes and remove spoke twist but I have not heard of a machine that actually stress-relieves the spokes as we think of stress relieving them. I personally do exactly what you suggest and stress relieve and retrue any wheels before I use them, and that is how I found the Mavic wheels I mentioned earlier to be undertensioned.

 

[johnlvs2run]

All these comments are very interesting. I don't know much about wheel building except have built a few of my own and liked to have all my wheels very true. I didn't have a trueing stand so turned the bicycle upside down, with an elastic shoelace tight across the frame just touching the rim for a guide. Then I'd spin the wheel and make adjustments to make sure the rim was even all the way around the perimeters and both sides. This worked very well and my wheels stayed in true.

A fellow I rode with a few times and who used to race motorcross asked if I balanced the wheels. I said no, how do you do that. He showed me the metal he had soldered at the ends of some of the spokes.

I thought this was a great idea and, back home with the bike upside down again, used some thick copper wire and balanced my wheels. I bent the copper wire around the ends of the spokes where needed and it stayed right in place. Believe it or not I could tell the difference with a much smoother ride on the bike.

I wonder if anyone else here has done this.

 

[artemidorus]

All these comments are very interesting. I don't know much about wheel building except have built a few of my own and liked to have all my wheels very true. I didn't have a trueing stand so turned the bicycle upside down, with an elastic shoelace tight across the frame just touching the rim for a guide. Then I'd spin the wheel and make adjustments to make sure the rim was even all the way around the perimeters and both sides. This worked very well and my wheels stayed in true.

A fellow I rode with a few times and who used to race motorcross asked if I balanced the wheels. I said no, how do you do that. He showed me the metal he had soldered at the ends of some of the spokes.

I thought this was a great idea and, back home with the bike upside down again, used some thick copper wire and balanced my wheels. I bent the copper wire around the ends of the spokes where needed and it stayed right in place. Believe it or not I could tell the difference with a much smoother ride on the bike.

I wonder if anyone else here has done this.

How did you work out where to put the weights?

 

[johnlvs2run]

By spinning the wheel around slowly.

Usually one part or another goes to the bottom, for example where the stem is.

So then you put the weight opposite.

When the wheel spins slow and keeps going smoothly it is balanced.

 

[johnlvs2run]

It has been quite awhile, but think I taped the wire to the rim to make sure of the weight before winding it on the spoke.

 

[Phill P]

Usually one part or another goes to the bottom, for example where the stem is.

So then you put the weight opposite.

When the wheel spins slow and keeps going smoothly it is balanced.

Campy/Fulcrum does this on the wheels that have material removed between each spoke. They leave some extra material directly opposite the valve stem. They say it improves smoothness and stability at high speed.

As far as out of true Mavics, I think the wheels complained about here were duds. The more you build of sometihng in mass production the more out of spec products get produced.
I doubt vibration plays much part, or you'd be seeing this more often and not just on mavics. If spokes destressed or unwound because of shipping all pre built wheels would be requiring trueing and checking in the shop as a manufacturers warrenty requirement etc.

 

[daveornee]

Do wheel-building machines provide adequate stress relief? In addition to retensioning, should all elbow-type spokes on a machine-built wheel be stress-relieved, and the wheel retrued, before use?

In a discussion led by Jobst Brandt at:
http://yarchive.net/bike/machine_built_wheels.html
he seems to think so.
I saw both BMD and Holland machines at work and they are quite something.
I think that it is possible, but the understanding and willingness to spend the extra time and machine cycles seems to prevent the additional investment.
It is hard, if not impossible, to look at a wheel to determine if stress relief has been performed. I think that stress relieving again, just to make sure, is a good practice.
Marketing feaures that are discernable (Weight, Low spoke count, etc.) seems to satisfy most in the marketplace.
There are good wheels out there coming from big suppliers. It certainly doesn't hurt to buy from someone whose reputation comes from building consistanly quality wheels or to take "mass made" (machine built) and but the finishing touches on them.
I like building wheels. The time investment to make them durable takes a few hours. Those few hours pay back in riding them for thousands of hours without any need to tend the spokes.

 

[backtobiking]

Last week I splashed out 450Euros on a new set of Mavic Ksyrium Elite's because I was informed of their great durability!!

After 7 days (one 50mile road race and one 16KM TT) the back wheel now has a small (but extremely annoying) wabble/buckle

I did not crash or ride over any pot-holes and I only weight 70KG's.The wheel is going straight back to the shop. Maybe the spoke tension wasn’t correct when they came out of the box?? I spun the wheels around when I bought them but sometimes its hard to spot a wabble unless the wheel is on the bike (using brake pads as a reference)

Anyone else feel that Mavic's are a bit over-rated?
They have yet to earn my confidence!

I'm buying a set soon. I'm purchasing the 2 year free repair or replacement warranty from my authorised dealer. It is ridiculously cheap insurance to have. I take it you didn't get the warranty?

 

[clonsingle]

I'm buying a set soon. I'm purchasing the 2 year free repair or replacement warranty from my authorised dealer. It is ridiculously cheap insurance to have. I take it you didn't get the warranty?

I got a one year warranty, but the problem is the wheel has to go back to the shop to be repared and I have to race on a training wheel while I'm waiting.

 

[backtobiking]

I got a one year warranty, but the problem is the wheel has to go back to the shop to be repaired and I have to race on a training wheel while I'm waiting.

That is a bummer. My LBS store has different mavic wheels set up to try out on your bike before you buy. In a case like yours I'm sure my store would bend over backwards to help a guy out. Maybe your store can find a way to make it right for you?