Optimum crank length

[Frank Day]

Yesterday i was talking to a high ranking UCI rider who told me he had just been tested by one of
the cycling testing gurus. He indicated this testing guru suggested his crank length was too long
and through out this interesting fact to him: he said that their testing suggested that the optimum
crank length for sustained power generation is 162.5 although he realized that this may not be
optimum for the kind of racing this person does which requires a lot of pace changes.

Has anyone seen any data to support this short of a crank being "ideal"?

 

[Andy Coggan]

"Frank Day" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Yesterday i was talking to a high ranking UCI rider who told me he had just been tested by one of
> the cycling testing gurus. He indicated this testing guru suggested his crank length was too long
> and through out this interesting fact to him: he said that their testing suggested that the
> optimum crank length for sustained power generation is 162.5 although he realized that this may
> not be optimum for the kind of racing this person does which requires a lot of pace changes.
>
> Has anyone seen any data to support this short of a crank being "ideal"?

Jim Martin's data indicate that differences in crank length within the usual range have essentially
no affect on submaximal or maximal power (which if you think about it in terms of muscle physiology,
is precisely what you would expect):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10828327&dop-
t=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11417428&dop-
t=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11990729&dop-
t=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12183473&dop-
t=Abstract

Andy Coggan

 

[Jim Martin]

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in
> Jim Martin's data indicate that differences in crank length within the
usual
> range have essentially no affect on submaximal or maximal power

Guy must be total lab geek with no understanding of REAL bicycle racing!

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[Carl Sundquist]

"Davey Crockett" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:87llqddzuj.fsf@cpe0050da66e294-
>
> I use shorter on on the track personally, down as short as 162.5 but that is more to compensate
> for the transition from banking to straight on an ultra short velodrome.
>

Wouldn't that be straight to banking, as going from the banking to the straight, the track surface
is going away from you.

 

[Phil Holman]

"Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > Jim Martin's data indicate that differences in crank length within
the
> usual
> > range have essentially no affect on submaximal or maximal power
>
> Guy must be total lab geek with no understanding of REAL bicycle
racing!

Don't be bashful. What is your "on the bike" experience?

Phil Holman

 

[Andy Coggan]

"Phil Holman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > Jim Martin's data indicate that differences in crank length within
> the
> > usual
> > > range have essentially no affect on submaximal or maximal power
> >
> > Guy must be total lab geek with no understanding of REAL bicycle
> racing!
>
> Don't be bashful. What is your "on the bike" experience?

Jim is too modest to tout his own experience/accomplishments, so I'll do it for him:

Masters national champion, match sprint First director of the Alkek Velodrome, Houston, TX First
coach of Team EDS (before the hiring of Skip Cutting as a full-time coach) Director of Sports
Science for Team EDS Member of Project 96 (in charge of helmet and handlebar testing) Author of a
regular column on training for either Road Bike Action or Bicycle Guide (I don't remember which)
Presently advising at least one world-class athlete

And his most important accomplishment to date (drum roll, please).................

Was in the break at the Texas State Road Race in 1986! ;-)

Andy Coggan

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Phil Holman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > > > Jim Martin's data indicate that differences in crank length
within
> > the
> > > usual
> > > > range have essentially no affect on submaximal or maximal
power
> > >
> > > Guy must be total lab geek with no understanding of REAL bicycle
> > racing!
> >
> > Don't be bashful. What is your "on the bike" experience?
>
> Jim is too modest to tout his own experience/accomplishments, so
I'll do it
> for him:
>
> Masters national champion, match sprint First director of the Alkek Velodrome, Houston, TX First
> coach of Team EDS (before the hiring of Skip Cutting as a
full-time
> coach) Director of Sports Science for Team EDS Member of Project 96 (in charge of helmet and
> handlebar testing) Author of a regular column on training for either Road Bike Action
or
> Bicycle Guide (I don't remember which) Presently advising at least one world-class athlete
>
> And his most important accomplishment to date (drum roll, please).................
>
> Was in the break at the Texas State Road Race in 1986! ;-)

Wasn't that the race that big tri-geek was also in?

 

[Jim Martin]

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote
> Jim is too modest to tout his own experience/accomplishments, so I'll do
it for him:

Gee I look good.... on paper.

> the break at the Texas State Road Race in 1986! ;-)

1984, and yeah, that was real ground breaking research into dehydration, carbohydrate depletion, and
whole body cramping. Thanks for reminding me. Do you happen to remember who won? ;-)

Cheers,

Jim

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[Ilan Vardi]

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Frank Day" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Yesterday i was talking to a high ranking UCI rider who told me he had just been tested by one
> > of the cycling testing gurus. He indicated this testing guru suggested his crank length was too
> > long and through out this interesting fact to him: he said that their testing suggested that the
> > optimum crank length for sustained power generation is 162.5 although he realized that this may
> > not be optimum for the kind of racing this person does which requires a lot of pace changes.
> >
> > Has anyone seen any data to support this short of a crank being "ideal"?
>
> Jim Martin's data indicate that differences in crank length within the usual range have
> essentially no affect on submaximal or maximal power (which if you think about it in terms of
> muscle physiology, is precisely what you would expect):

The technical expression "submaximal or maximal power" can be replaced by the simple term
"power", since the values taken by any function are necessarily maximal or submaximal (assuming
it has a maximum).

-ilan

 

[Benjamin Weiner]

Carl Sundquist <[email protected]> wrote:

> > I use shorter on on the track personally, down as short as 162.5 but that is more to compensate
> > for the transition from banking to straight on an ultra short velodrome.

> Wouldn't that be straight to banking, as going from the banking to the straight, the track surface
> is going away from you.

Maybe he was riding clockwise.

 

[Phil Holman]

"Ilan Vardi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Frank Day" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Yesterday i was talking to a high ranking UCI rider who told me he
had
> > > just been tested by one of the cycling testing gurus. He indicated this testing guru suggested
> > > his crank length was too long and
through
> > > out this interesting fact to him: he said that their testing
suggested
> > > that the optimum crank length for sustained power generation is
162.5
> > > although he realized that this may not be optimum for the kind
of
> > > racing this person does which requires a lot of pace changes.
> > >
> > > Has anyone seen any data to support this short of a crank being "ideal"?
> >
> > Jim Martin's data indicate that differences in crank length within
the usual
> > range have essentially no affect on submaximal or maximal power
(which if
> > you think about it in terms of muscle physiology, is precisely what
you
> > would expect):
>
> The technical expression "submaximal or maximal power" can be replaced
by the
> simple term "power", since the values taken by any function are
necessarily
> maximal or submaximal (assuming it has a maximum).

Now you're starting to annoy me.

Phil Holman

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Jim is too modest to tout his own experience/accomplishments, so I'll do it for him:
>
<< palmares snipped >>
>
> Was in the break at the Texas State Road Race in 1986! ;-)
>
> Andy Coggan
>
>

He competed in the 1985 National Sports Festival.

 

[Andy Coggan]

"Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote
> > Jim is too modest to tout his own experience/accomplishments, so I'll do
> it for him:
>
> Gee I look good.... on paper.
>
> > the break at the Texas State Road Race in 1986! ;-)
>
> 1984, and yeah, that was real ground breaking research into dehydration, carbohydrate depletion,
> and whole body cramping. Thanks for reminding me.
Do
> you happen to remember who won? ;-)

Remember who won? S***, I can't even get the year right! ;-)

I do recall that Stan Blanton was 2nd, Scott Dickson was 3rd, and Bob Lowe finished somewhere in
the top 6...

Andy Coggan

 

[Jim Martin]

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in
> Remember who won? S***, I can't even get the year right! ;-)
>
> I do recall that Stan Blanton was 2nd, Scott Dickson was 3rd, and Bob Lowe finished somewhere in
> the top 6...

Yeah, you remember those finishes because you were waiting at the finish line ;-) How many times
have you been state champion? And in how many states?

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[Andy Coggan]

"Jim Martin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > Remember who won? S***, I can't even get the year right! ;-)
> >
> > I do recall that Stan Blanton was 2nd, Scott Dickson was 3rd, and Bob
Lowe
> > finished somewhere in the top 6...
>
> Yeah, you remember those finishes because you were waiting at the finish line ;-)

Hey, I'll have you (and everyone else) know that I had to outsprint Blanton to win that race!

> How many times have you been state champion? And in how many states?

I'd trade them all for one stars-and-stripes jersey...even one of the master fatties versions.

Andy Coggan

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > How many times have you been state champion? And in how many states?
>
> I'd trade them all for one stars-and-stripes jersey...even one of the master fatties versions.
>
> Andy Coggan
>
>

If Henry doesn't give you **** for that comment, I'd be surprised.

 

[Andy Coggan]

"Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > > How many times have you been state champion? And in how many states?
> >
> > I'd trade them all for one stars-and-stripes jersey...even one of the
master
> > fatties versions.
> >
> > Andy Coggan
> >
> If Henry doesn't give you **** for that comment, I'd be surprised.

Henry who?

Andy Coggan

 

[Ewoud Dronkert]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 06:06:28 GMT, Davey Crockett wrote:
> Benjamin Weiner <[email protected]> writes:
>> Maybe he was riding clockwise.
>
> That's the way folks normally ride around tracks isn't it?

Before my first crit ever this fall, I was a little apprehensive because when I saw the course (1 km
tarmac, 1 km cobbles, 2 180 deg turns) I realised it was going to be clockwise. Somehow I thought
I'd suck at doing righthand turns. After 2 rounds it was OK though.

 

[Andy Coggan]

"Ilan Vardi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Frank Day" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Yesterday i was talking to a high ranking UCI rider who told me he had just been tested by one
> > > of the cycling testing gurus. He indicated this testing guru suggested his crank length was
> > > too long and through out this interesting fact to him: he said that their testing suggested
> > > that the optimum crank length for sustained power generation is 162.5 although he realized
> > > that this may not be optimum for the kind of racing this person does which requires a lot of
> > > pace changes.
> > >
> > > Has anyone seen any data to support this short of a crank being "ideal"?
> >
> > Jim Martin's data indicate that differences in crank length within the
usual
> > range have essentially no affect on submaximal or maximal power (which
if
> > you think about it in terms of muscle physiology, is precisely what you would expect):
>
> The technical expression "submaximal or maximal power" can be replaced by
the
> simple term "power", since the values taken by any function are
necessarily
> maximal or submaximal (assuming it has a maximum).

Submaximal = measured at an exercise intensity eliciting less than VO2max Maximal = maximal
(not peak, not at 100% of VO2max, not at the end of an incremental or ramp exercise test to
determine VO2max)

Thus, if I'd simply said "power" when describing Jim's data, you wouldn't know that he'd looked at
the effect of crank length on the physiology/performance of both very short duration, very high
intensity exercise and longer duration, lower intensity exercise. The addition of the adjectives
"submaximal and maximal" makes this clear (at least if you are versed in the field, which obviously
you are not).

Andy Coggan

 

[Andy Coggan]

"Davey Crockett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:87he10sxi4.fsf@cpe0050da66e294-cm0f2069983361.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Benjamin Weiner <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >
> > Maybe he was riding clockwise.
>
> That's the way folks normally ride around tracks isn't it?

Only in the southern hemisphere - it helps to counter the opposite Coriolis force.

Andy Coggan