OT: ELQ student funding withdrawal



Please follow up on the e-mail below to ensure that this proposal is
quashed - I am sure that most of you will agree that it is a foolhardy
and ill-conceived idea and one that can do nothing but harm to our
educational institutions, individuals and society.

Sniper8052

Innovation, Universities and Skills Committee Inquiry

I am writing now to let you know that the Innovation, Universities and
Skills Committee has announced it is to conduct an inquiry into the
Government?s decision. The inquiry will focus on the arguments for and
against the Government?s decision, the timing of the decision and of
the implementation of the change; the exemptions from the withdrawal
of funding and the impact upon students and institutions.

The Committee has requested written evidence from interested
organisations and individuals, including from students studying for
ELQs, addressing these points by noon on Monday, 14 January 2008. The
University is already working on an institutional response. Guidelines
for the submission of evidence can be found at
http://www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/ius/ius_061207.cfm.

I would urge you either as an individual to make a submission, or if
you are connected to particular sectors or representing particular
groups that have an interest in the outcome of this matter to
encourage partners and others to make a submission to the Committee.

Why do we need your support?

If you are a student studying for your first degree and you are paying
your fees yourself, you may ask why you should support a campaign for
government funding for those studying for a second degree or similar.

At the moment, each university in the UK receives a grant from
Government that covers over two thirds of the costs of teaching.
Tuition fees cover the rest. In addition, and separately, Government
provides financial help to students on low incomes who are studying
for their first degree, and to those with disabilities.

>From 2008/09, the Government will stop funding English universities to teach ELQ students, apart from a few exceptions. As is already the case, financial support will not be available for ELQ students on low incomes. This effectively means that graduates who wish to continue their professional development at undergraduate level will in future have to meet the full costs of the course themselves. Government has withdrawn its support.


The OU will cease to receive funding for ELQ students resident in
England and also (uniquely) in Northern Ireland. Government expects
us to make up this lost funding by asking students and, more
particularly, employers to contribute more. This will not be easy and
we are currently considering whether and how it can be done.

We continue to believe that the Government?s decision to withdraw
funding from ELQ students in England runs counter to their ambition to
promote lifelong learning. We believe that Government should be
prepared to make its contribution to the reskilling of the nation?s
workforce and the development of a high skills economy.
That is why we are fighting this decision. We are fortunate that we
have considerable public support and powerful allies amongst our staff
and students. We hope we can count on your continued and active
support.

Professor B M Gourley
Vice-Chancellor

20 December 2007
 
According to nusonline.co.uk "universities and colleges in England
will lose £100m of public funding from September 2008 for the teaching
of students studying for qualifications equivalent to, or lower than,
qualifications (ELQs) for which they have previously received an
award."
So, depending upon your point of view,
either:
- you can't get funding if you retrain in another discipline
or:
- the government has decided to put the squeeze on perpetual students

Or am I missing something (quite likely, as I have only just woken
up)?
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Please follow up on the e-mail below to ensure that this proposal is
> quashed - I am sure that most of you will agree that it is a foolhardy
> and ill-conceived idea and one that can do nothing but harm to our
> educational institutions, individuals and society.


Sniper, do you think you could post,in English, a brief statement of what
the problem is, including, especially, what an 'ELQ' is? I probably support
your campaign, but, having carefully read your post through in full twice I
have no idea what it is about.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'there are no solutions, only precipitates'
 
"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> Please follow up on the e-mail below to ensure that this proposal is
>> quashed - I am sure that most of you will agree that it is a foolhardy
>> and ill-conceived idea and one that can do nothing but harm to our
>> educational institutions, individuals and society.

>
> Sniper, do you think you could post,in English, a brief statement of what
> the problem is, including, especially, what an 'ELQ' is? I probably
> support
> your campaign, but, having carefully read your post through in full twice
> I
> have no idea what it is about.
>

Basically it covers doing a course whose academic worth is the same or lower
than the one already possessed by the would be student.

It means that anyone studying for a second first degree would have to pay a
much higher course fee than those studying for a degree for the first time.

Potentially the Open University will be one of the biggest losers. Many of
its undergraduates already have a degree.
 
vernon wrote:
> "Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> Please follow up on the e-mail below to ensure that this proposal is
>>> quashed - I am sure that most of you will agree that it is a
>>> foolhardy and ill-conceived idea and one that can do nothing but
>>> harm to our educational institutions, individuals and society.

>>
>> Sniper, do you think you could post,in English, a brief statement of
>> what the problem is, including, especially, what an 'ELQ' is? I
>> probably support
>> your campaign, but, having carefully read your post through in full
>> twice I
>> have no idea what it is about.
>>

> Basically it covers doing a course whose academic worth is the same
> or lower than the one already possessed by the would be student.
>
> It means that anyone studying for a second first degree would have to
> pay a much higher course fee than those studying for a degree for the
> first time.
> Potentially the Open University will be one of the biggest losers. Many of
> its undergraduates already have a degree.



And it really stuffs anyone wanting to career change. If you have a degree,
masters or doctorate in one subject, its going to cost a lot more to get a
degree in a different subject.


Like the earlier post, I can't quite square the objective of stopping
perpetual students with the one of flexible careers, recognising that jobs
and qualifications are not for life, etc..





- Nigel


--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster at http://www.2mm.org.uk/
 
On Dec 23, 12:23 pm, "vernon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Basically it covers doing a course whose academic worth is the same or lower
> than the one already possessed by the would be student.
>
> It means that anyone studying for a second first degree would have to pay a
> much higher course fee than those studying for a degree for the first time.
>
> Potentially the Open University will be one of the biggest losers. Many of
> its undergraduates already have a degree.


For example I'm studying for a diploma in classical studies at the OU
at the moment. If I were to continue with it it could eventually lead
to a degree in either languages or humanities. But I already have a
degree in psychology so I would be looking at much higher fees. You
could argue with some justification that the country does not have a
desperate need for humanities graduates pushing sixty. That's OK, I'm
doing it just for my own satisfaction. However, the likely reduction
in students and therefore income will have an impact throughout the OU
and would therefore indirectly affect people with lower or non-
existant qualifications working their arses off against all the odds
to become Professors of Difficult Sums.

--
Dave....
 
"Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> vernon wrote:
>> "Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> Please follow up on the e-mail below to ensure that this proposal is
>>>> quashed - I am sure that most of you will agree that it is a
>>>> foolhardy and ill-conceived idea and one that can do nothing but
>>>> harm to our educational institutions, individuals and society.
>>>
>>> Sniper, do you think you could post,in English, a brief statement of
>>> what the problem is, including, especially, what an 'ELQ' is? I
>>> probably support
>>> your campaign, but, having carefully read your post through in full
>>> twice I
>>> have no idea what it is about.
>>>

>> Basically it covers doing a course whose academic worth is the same
>> or lower than the one already possessed by the would be student.
>>
>> It means that anyone studying for a second first degree would have to
>> pay a much higher course fee than those studying for a degree for the
>> first time.
>> Potentially the Open University will be one of the biggest losers. Many
>> of its undergraduates already have a degree.

>
>
> And it really stuffs anyone wanting to career change. If you have a
> degree, masters or doctorate in one subject, its going to cost a lot more
> to get a degree in a different subject.
>
>
> Like the earlier post, I can't quite square the objective of stopping
> perpetual students with the one of flexible careers, recognising that jobs
> and qualifications are not for life, etc..
>

The Labour Party's description of lifelong learning:
http://www.labour.org.uk/education seems to suggest that it applies to those
accessing lower grade qualifications for the first time irrespective of age
which doesn't square with what I considered life long learning to be i.e.
the acquisition of new/skills and knowledge throughout one's working and
retired life.

Another Labour Party policy that has not been thought through. I despair.
 
On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:23:37 -0000
"vernon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Basically it covers doing a course whose academic worth is the same
> or lower than the one already possessed by the would be student.
>
> It means that anyone studying for a second first degree would have to
> pay a much higher course fee than those studying for a degree for the
> first time.


That would seem to suggest that course fees are dictated by social
rather than market forces. That's just silly[1].

But apart from that, it doesn't sound so bad. If I want to study
a subject to degree level, I don't need a course leading to a degree
to do that.

> Potentially the Open University will be one of the biggest losers.
> Many of its undergraduates already have a degree.


The OU could also be a big gainer. They've got all those course
materials they could make available for self-study. Just introduce
two-tier access: one (as now) for students working for a degree,
and a much cheaper option for people who just want to learn a subject
but don't sign up for the qualification.

[1] Having *grants* dictated by social factors is a different issue.

--
not me guv
 
"Nick Kew" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 12:23:37 -0000
> "vernon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Basically it covers doing a course whose academic worth is the same
>> or lower than the one already possessed by the would be student.
>>
>> It means that anyone studying for a second first degree would have to
>> pay a much higher course fee than those studying for a degree for the
>> first time.

>
> That would seem to suggest that course fees are dictated by social
> rather than market forces. That's just silly[1].
>
> But apart from that, it doesn't sound so bad. If I want to study
> a subject to degree level, I don't need a course leading to a degree
> to do that.
>
>> Potentially the Open University will be one of the biggest losers.
>> Many of its undergraduates already have a degree.

>
> The OU could also be a big gainer. They've got all those course
> materials they could make available for self-study. Just introduce
> two-tier access: one (as now) for students working for a degree,
> and a much cheaper option for people who just want to learn a subject
> but don't sign up for the qualification.


The folk with degrees who would have studied for the degree at the lower
fees will not necessarily be replaced by the 'learning for fun'. I for one
would not pay out for a course that has academic status without obtaining
assessment/certification that's recognised by employers/professional bodies.
Assessment is a vehicle for monitoring progress and unless the work is
assessed there's little worth in the self study option.

The degree certificate offers a lot of motivation though not enough for me
to give up enough time to complete a second degree ;-)
 
Quoting Simon Brooke <[email protected]>:
>[email protected] wrote:
>>Please follow up on the e-mail below to ensure that this proposal is
>>quashed - I am sure that most of you will agree that it is a foolhardy
>>and ill-conceived idea and one that can do nothing but harm to our
>>educational institutions, individuals and society.

>Sniper, do you think you could post,in English, a brief statement of what
>the problem is, including, especially, what an 'ELQ' is?


To an education-related newsgroup, ideally.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
Today is First Chedday, December - a public holiday.
 
vernon wrote:
> "Nigel Cliffe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> vernon wrote:
>>> "Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Please follow up on the e-mail below to ensure that this proposal is
>>>>> quashed - I am sure that most of you will agree that it is a
>>>>> foolhardy and ill-conceived idea and one that can do nothing but
>>>>> harm to our educational institutions, individuals and society.
>>>> Sniper, do you think you could post,in English, a brief statement of
>>>> what the problem is, including, especially, what an 'ELQ' is? I
>>>> probably support
>>>> your campaign, but, having carefully read your post through in full
>>>> twice I
>>>> have no idea what it is about.
>>>>
>>> Basically it covers doing a course whose academic worth is the same
>>> or lower than the one already possessed by the would be student.
>>>
>>> It means that anyone studying for a second first degree would have to
>>> pay a much higher course fee than those studying for a degree for the
>>> first time.
>>> Potentially the Open University will be one of the biggest losers. Many
>>> of its undergraduates already have a degree.

>>
>> And it really stuffs anyone wanting to career change. If you have a
>> degree, masters or doctorate in one subject, its going to cost a lot more
>> to get a degree in a different subject.
>>
>>
>> Like the earlier post, I can't quite square the objective of stopping
>> perpetual students with the one of flexible careers, recognising that jobs
>> and qualifications are not for life, etc..
>>

> The Labour Party's description of lifelong learning:
> http://www.labour.org.uk/education seems to suggest that it applies to those
> accessing lower grade qualifications for the first time irrespective of age
> which doesn't square with what I considered life long learning to be i.e.
> the acquisition of new/skills and knowledge throughout one's working and
> retired life.
>
> Another Labour Party policy that has not been thought through. I despair.
>
>

I think they have thought it through.

The have decided to place the emphasis on forcing young people to stay
in eduction to 18 and need to find the money to pay for it.

Now I think it is a bad idea but there you go.