Re-building mavic ksyrium es wheels

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by 886014, Mar 31, 2016.

  1. 886014

    886014 New Member

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    I'm not sure where I should ask this, but figure I'll give it a go here.

    I have a couple of pairs of Mavic Ksyrium ES wheels, both are now worn out (I never mind wearing kit out!), but the hubs are fine. I'm considering rebuilding the hubs and lacing in some deep section carbon rims an one pair. While I have all the required gear to do so, I've only ever maintained wheels and never built a wheel from scratch. I've always wanted to, so it's as much for my own interest as anything.

    These hubs are 18/20 straight pull and I was considering a 50 mm x 25 full carbon rim (Chinese, Yoeleo) and lacing with CX-Ray spokes.

    I wonder if anyone can see any issues in being able to do this. Please no trolling about Chinese rims.

    The specific concerns I have are whether the Mavic hubs require specific spoke heads? Also whether the low spoke count is likely to present issues for the rims? I am 70 kg.

    Thanks
     
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  2. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    I presume you're talking about the Equipe S. That's the only "ES" I could find any info for.

    The Euipe S has 20 radial spokes in front and 24 spokes in "isopulse" pattern in the rear. The spokes are of a proprietary "nailhead" and bladed design. That means they're made by Mavic and available only in lengths required for this wheel set.

    "Isopulse" lacing means 8 radial spokes on one side (Mavic puts these on the drive side) and 16 tangentially laced spokes on the other. That means finding a rim having the same ERD (effective rim diameter) with a 16+8 drill pattern.

    If you enjoy the hunt, you might find Chinese rims of the same ERD whose manufacturer would be willing to drill to your spec.Or you might be able to simply send the wheels back to Mavic for rebuilding. While Mavic supplies spokes, bearings, casstte bodies, and hub small parts to its dealers, Mavic does not authorize rebuilding these wheels, so rims are not available.
     
  3. 886014

    886014 New Member

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    No, I'm talking about the Mavic Ksyrium ES, as mentioned. They are 18/20 spoke count. A search of that wheel bought up many matches. They were the anniversary edition of the Helium.

    I'm not interested in rebuilding this wheel back to the ES spec, I already have other climbing wheels and have replaced these with 2016 Shimano DA C24. The Ksyrium ES was absolutely bullet proof and I'm expecting the same from the DA; just ride them without fuss! However since my old hubs are just sitting there I was keen to try to use them for something other than landfill.

    Although it would probably be just as cheap to buy a ready built Chinese wheel, if that's all I was interested in, instead I think life is all about learning, and I'd like to have a go at building some wheels up from scratch without it costing a lot for the exercise. I've done everything but the actual lacing of a wheel in the past, and it's something I'd like to try. It would be good if I were able to throw some new bearings at the old Mavic hubs, and some cheap deep carbon rims, just to see how it all works out.
     
  4. dabac

    dabac Well-Known Member

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    Can't tell from the pic if those are steel spokes or not. If steel, read on....

    Since buying single Mavic spokes can be a PITA, I've tried using regular straight-pull in an old Ksyrium Elite, which worked w/o issues until I found some proper replacement spokes off Ebay.

    Won't cost much to pick one up and try.

    Or simply take a standard J-bend, heat it up and straighten it. Se if it'll engage in a reassuring manner.

    Or browse the Mavic spare parts catalogue, see what lengths there are, and if any of them seems to be a likely fit to any of the rims you're considering.

    I seem to remember that the CX-ray, while good in other perspectives, has a fairly small cross section, making it rather stretchy.
    Throwing some crude math on it, it's comparable to the DT Revolution 1.5 mm spoke

    Not what I'd choose for the DS on any wheel.
    And probably not what I'd choose for a 20-spoke either.
    i suspect you'd have trouble reaching the right spoke tension.

    If you find a rim with the right drilling, which hubs you use is not an issue. The rim doesn't care what's on the other end of the spoke.

    But 18/20-spoke is NOT a good first wheelset to build.

    My Mavics were 20/24 and had a recommended DS spoke tension in the 140-160 kg range.
    And that's a lot compared to "regular" wheels.
    Everything about the build gets more finicky. Trueing, dishing, simply getting up there w/o damaging anything.

    And since each spoke gets more important the fewer you have, a mid-ride failure becomes a bigger deal.

    Learn on some 32-36 wheels first.
     
  5. 886014

    886014 New Member

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    I should be able to have the rims drilled as required.

    As mentioned I have done plenty of wheel work before, and have all the required equipment to handle a scratch build. I've had hubs hanging loose in the spokes, just never had to lace up from scratch. I'm not going to build a 36 spoke wheel!

    What I was concerned about with the current Mavic hub was whether the spokes it uses has an unusually large head or some other reason that a regular spoke wouldn't fit in it. The Mavic spokes are alloy of some description, and unique to them. Incidentally they're a PIA as if they haven't been adjusted for a while and ridden in the rain, the alloy spoke and proprietary integrated nipple grows with corrosion and/or galls. However that's no longer a concern as all the original spokes will be binned. I can't recall what spoke tension they ran from new.

    Normally the spokes need to be replaced with original Mavic ones, since they have a wierd integrated nipple. IIRC the integrated spoke screws into the rim with a 7 mm LH thread. However the rim end of the equation will no longer be a concern, and all I'm worried about at this stage is whether they did anything weird down at the hub too.
     
  6. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    With the understanding that I don't know what the spokes on your ES wheels look like ...

    FYI. If your current MAVIC spokes are round, then the rim-end can be readily threaded by a person/shop which has a spoke "threader" which will roll the threads onto the ends of the spokes ...

    If the spokes are their bladed Zircal spokes, then you have to measure to ensure that there is enough "round" portion on the spoke to be threaded to create the proper length spoke ...

    Of course, in the latter instance (i.e., bladed/aero spokes) THAT means that you will need to know the ERD of your replacement rims + do some figurin' with a spoke calculator.
    IF the spokes are other than the T-headed spokes which are on some MAVIC wheels ... BUT they have an over-sized round head, THEN you can possible add a small washer to that end of the spoke when you are lacing the hubs.
     
  7. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    OK, I found photose of Heliums. So tell me if I have this right. The Ksyrium ES spokes are nailhead at the hub end and use standard nipples at the rim. And there are 18 radial in front and 20 tangential (probably cross-2) in the rear.

    QBP offers traight-pull (nailhead) spokes by DT Swiss. You'll have to confirm that these will work with your hubs. Bontrager has a standard-spaced Race Lite clincher rim with 18 holes. MSRP is $80. Their standard spaced rear rims use 24 spokes, and their 20-spoke rim is for the paired pattern, so you're out of luck for the back end. DT Swiss makes a rim available for 20 spokes, the RR 585, but QBP offers it only down to 28 holes. I don't know how you can get your local shop to special order QPB to special order DT Swiss for one of these rims. Trek markets the Bontrager for shops rebuilding Bontrager wheels, and those special DT Swiss components are for OEMs and custom wheel builders, not end users. Your better bet might be to browse eBay and Alibaba for Chinese carbon rims.

    Frankly, the best project for learning wheelbuilding is with 32- or 36- spoke alloy rims and J-bend spokes. You're learning to swim in open water.
     
  8. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

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    Ignore my last post. I found your Ksyrium ES wheels.
    [​IMG]
    They look like an embrionic Ksyrium SL. Really, a picture is worth a thousand words.

    So you need either a straight pull spoke that has the Ksyrium SL head but a standard nipple at the other end, or a rim that is threaded to take a Ksyrium SL spoke and has the same ERD, but isn't a Ksyrium SL. You might be able dig up Chinese carbon rims somewhere.

    But I don't think you'll find spokes that will work with that hub and any rims you find.
     
  9. cyclintom

    cyclintom Well-Known Member

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    It probably isn't a good idea to build a carbon rim up as your first try at wheel building. And it probably isn't a good idea to use low spoke count wheels either. I can almost guarantee you will over-tighten the spokes incorrectly and rapidly break the rims between the spoke holes.

    If you want to buy a spoke tension gauge and take the chance of losing your investment in the rims have at it.
     
  10. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    EXCEPT for the part about learning to build a standard 32h or 36h wheelset ...

    FWIW. My recollection is that Heliums were MAVIC's first ready-to-ride wheelset ... basically, using red anodized OPEN 4 rims (622-13) ... a 28h rear rim/hub + a WTF 23h front rim/hub ...

    So, the original Helium wheelset could certainly be described as being "embryonic" ...

    Whether someone wants to consider the current iteration as "embryonic" is up to them ...

    As pictured, I reckon the "Helium" name was more for marketing purposes ...

    With whatever actual differences the wheelset has vs a non-Helium iteration (¿the bladed spokes?) of the wheelset.​

    A picture is worth a thousand words -- well, at least one hundred ...

    Because the ES spokes appear to have a sufficient non-bladed portion, what the OP needs to determine is:

    1. what the ERD is for the rims s/he is considering
      • AND, the rim's actual profile
    2. whether-or-not s/he can get the rims with the custom 18h drilling for the front
    As long as the proposed CF rims do NOT have a profile which is so deep that it there would be a conflict with the FLAT portion of the bladed spoke, s/he should be good-to-go AFTER she finds a shop which can cut the spokes to the proper length and roll the threads onto the ends.

    Despite Spoke Threaders being REALLY expensive, depending on how much the shop would charge per spoke, it might actually be worth buying a spoke threader & re-selling it after-the-fact ...

    While a spoke threader is NOT difficult to use, the only thing which I think a person needs to know is that the end cannot be perfectly smooth before you begin ...

    Practice on an old/(an "extra" regular spoke) ... you could probably use a wire coathanger!?!
    To state what may be obvious, GREAT care should be taken in measuring the new length of the spoke before cutting it.

    BTW. It might be possible to snip the end of the spoke off with a pair of Lineman's Pliers ... THAT may-or-may-not give you the imperfect end which a spoke threader needs to grab the spoke.
     
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