Sealed Cartridge Bearings



I am a fan of hubs, headsets and BB that use sealed cartridge bearings.
They are not that common most of the top range hubs etc use loose
balls. I find the minimum maintainence and easy adjustablity of sealed
cartridge bearings much easier to use and longer lasting.

I had some bombproof Specialised hubs over 20 years ago that had the
best seal in any hubs I have ever used and they say the cartridge
bearings in my Schmidt dynamo hub will last 40 -50,000km before
replacement.

Up until recently Shimano Ultegra 1" headset had replaceable cartidge
bearings, cheaper and easier to just replace them than the whole
headset when worn out.

I recently changed the front hub bearings in my mtn bike, pop the worn
ones out, $20 for two new ones at the bearing shop and pop them in.

Some high quality hubs such as Hope use such bearings.

Why is it not more common?

CC
 
C

Chalo

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
>
> I am a fan of hubs, headsets and BB that use sealed cartridge bearings.
> They are not that common most of the top range hubs etc use loose
> balls.
>
> Why is it not more common?


A few guesses:

It's probably less profitable to buy in cartridge bearings than to
stamp out cup & cone bearings that sell for as much or more.

It's certainly less profitable to sell expensive parts that are
indefinitely rebuildable than to sell similarly expensive parts that
deteriorate irreparably over time and require more frequent
replacement.

Many bike shops and end users are mystified and/or intimidated by
cartridge bearings and the procedures required to replace them.
"Adjusting" cartridges like cup & cone bearings often results in their
quick self-destruction, which deters further use.

Using decent quality cartridge bearings throughout a product line would
result in the cheap parts feeling exactly like the most expensive
parts, and also displaying equal longevity. A cheap cup & cone hub
(for example) feels noticeably different and deteriorates more quickly
than an expensive one, and this helps encourage buyers to discriminate
among different price levels and to "upgrade".

Chalo Colina
 
R

rs

Guest
Chalo's comments are well said. Sealed replaceable cartridge bearings make a
lot of sense, which is why they are not more common.


In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> I am a fan of hubs, headsets and BB that use sealed cartridge bearings.
>> They are not that common most of the top range hubs etc use loose
>> balls.
>>
>> Why is it not more common?

>
>A few guesses:
>
>It's probably less profitable to buy in cartridge bearings than to
>stamp out cup & cone bearings that sell for as much or more.
>
>It's certainly less profitable to sell expensive parts that are
>indefinitely rebuildable than to sell similarly expensive parts that
>deteriorate irreparably over time and require more frequent
>replacement.
>
>Many bike shops and end users are mystified and/or intimidated by
>cartridge bearings and the procedures required to replace them.
>"Adjusting" cartridges like cup & cone bearings often results in their
>quick self-destruction, which deters further use.
>
>Using decent quality cartridge bearings throughout a product line would
>result in the cheap parts feeling exactly like the most expensive
>parts, and also displaying equal longevity. A cheap cup & cone hub
>(for example) feels noticeably different and deteriorates more quickly
>than an expensive one, and this helps encourage buyers to discriminate
>among different price levels and to "upgrade".
>
>Chalo Colina
>
 
Z

Zog The Undeniable

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> I am a fan of hubs, headsets and BB that use sealed cartridge bearings.
> They are not that common most of the top range hubs etc use loose
> balls. I find the minimum maintainence and easy adjustablity of sealed
> cartridge bearings much easier to use and longer lasting.
>
> I had some bombproof Specialised hubs over 20 years ago that had the
> best seal in any hubs I have ever used and they say the cartridge
> bearings in my Schmidt dynamo hub will last 40 -50,000km before
> replacement.
>
> Up until recently Shimano Ultegra 1" headset had replaceable cartidge
> bearings, cheaper and easier to just replace them than the whole
> headset when worn out.
>
> I recently changed the front hub bearings in my mtn bike, pop the worn
> ones out, $20 for two new ones at the bearing shop and pop them in.
>
> Some high quality hubs such as Hope use such bearings.
>
> Why is it not more common?


Cup and cone bearings can take axial loads a bit better. They're also
more easily serviceable with basic tools, whereas with cartridge
bearings you need to obtain the correct type and the tools to fit them,
which is tricky in the wilds of Nepal.

Small-scale manufacturers don't normally have the machines to grind
cup-and-cone bearing surfaces; this is restricted to high volume
manufacturers, either quality like Shimano and Campag, or crapola like
the stuff you get on kids' bikes and department store specials.

I don't believe that cartridge/cup and cone is any indicator of quality,
though. **** bikes have both types, and so do good bikes.
 
C

Chalo

Guest
Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>
> Cup and cone bearings can take axial loads a bit better. They're also
> more easily serviceable with basic tools, whereas with cartridge
> bearings you need to obtain the correct type and the tools to fit them,
> which is tricky in the wilds of Nepal.


See my earlier comment about many people being mystified by cartridge
bearings. To service and adjust a cup & cone hub, you'll at least need
cone wrenches, but for many cartridge bearing hubs you can get away
with just a couple of adjustable wrenches and a mallet (sometimes
skipping the mallet). Phil Wood hubs can be serviced with just a pair
of 5mm hex keys.

If you're trekking Nepal (and don't we all?) then it's probably a good
idea to tote a spare set of bearings with you. But they will take up
less space in your panniers than the cone wrenches you'd need to adjust
the bearings in cup & cone hubs-- which need occasional adjusting,
while cartridge hubs generally don't. It's also worth noting that
you'll have an easier time finding 6001 bearing cartridges in Kathmandu
than you will XTR drive side rear cones, for example. Precision
bearing cartridges are used in electric motors, which are used in lots
of things.

> I don't believe that cartridge/cup and cone is any indicator of quality,
> though. **** bikes have both types, and so do good bikes.


I've never seen a cartridge bearing in a department store BSO. And
I've never seen a set of cartridge bearing hubs in an OEM bike arrive
from the manufacturer grossly overtightened like practically all cheap
cup & cone hubs. It's true that some cartridge bearing components are
inexpensive, but most of them work as well as, or better than, their
expensive cup & cone counterparts.

To be fair, I have seen some pretty crummy-looking non-precision
bearings fitted to trailers and adult trikes. But even those seem to
last for the lifespans of their machines without replacement,
adjustment, or even supplementary lubrication.

Chalo Colina
 
P

Phil, Squid-in-Training

Guest
Chalo wrote:
> Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>>
>> Cup and cone bearings can take axial loads a bit better. They're
>> also more easily serviceable with basic tools, whereas with cartridge
>> bearings you need to obtain the correct type and the tools to fit
>> them, which is tricky in the wilds of Nepal.

>
> See my earlier comment about many people being mystified by cartridge
> bearings. To service and adjust a cup & cone hub, you'll at least
> need cone wrenches, but for many cartridge bearing hubs you can get
> away with just a couple of adjustable wrenches and a mallet (sometimes
> skipping the mallet).


Could you explain the procedure to this one? How can you push the bearing
out without a fluted-end shaft like on the Park headset cup remover, or a
bearing puller?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training
 
D

Dave Mayer

Guest
CC: truth below:

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>I am a fan of hubs, headsets and BB that use sealed cartridge bearings.
> They are not that common most of the top range hubs etc use loose
> balls. I find the minimum maintainence and easy adjustablity of sealed
> cartridge bearings much easier to use and longer lasting.


The top-end hubs like Campagnolo Record, Shimano Dura-Ace and XTR used
sealed cup and cone bearings. These manufacterers do this because it is a
superior design that handles lateral loads well (as in the force of the
quick release). The small fry hub makers depend on cartridge bearings
because they cannot afford the tooling to mass-produce custom-made forged
parts, such as cones and cups. As far as sealing, the mid-range + Shimano
hubs are sealed very well indeed, and will outlast the high-priced bouthique
junk. Most cartridge bearing hubs are poorly sealed, as a single rubber
gasket exposed to the environment is guaranteed to let water in.

>
> I had some bombproof Specialised hubs over 20 years ago that had the
> best seal in any hubs I have ever used and they say the cartridge
> bearings in my Schmidt dynamo hub will last 40 -50,000km before
> replacement.
>

These were made by Sanshin, and were the same as the Suntour hubs of the
same era. This was one of the best implementations of a cartridge bearing
hub, but I have destroyed two of them. One due to an ovalized hub shell in
which the cartridge bearing would no longer seat correctly, and another in
which the cartridge bearing corroded into the shell, and would not come when
it needed replacement. As far as longevity, I recently sold my old wheels
that used 1972 Campagnolo Tipo hubs. These hubs were on their 4th set of
rims - no impacts, the rims just wore out from '000's of miles of braking.
Original cones, cups and bearings.

> Up until recently Shimano Ultegra 1" headset had replaceable cartidge
> bearings, cheaper and easier to just replace them than the whole
> headset when worn out.


The current generation of Shimano headsets uses angular contact cartridges
not for ease of replacement, but to allow a design that avoids brinelling,
which kills most headsets. And to allow the bearings to float within the
cups - which allows this headset to accomodate poorly faced headtubes. A
brilliant design. Best headset ever.
>
> I recently changed the front hub bearings in my mtn bike, pop the worn
> ones out, $20 for two new ones at the bearing shop and pop them in.


Sure, if you can find these. I spent several hours and 5 bike shops the
last time I tried to find standard-issue 6001 cartridge replacments. And
the shop wanted $25 for a pair of cartridge bearings that you should be able
to source wholesale for $3. If you were willing to order 1000....

In contrast, when you have a problem with a Shimano hub your options are
open with respect to replacement parts. Generally bearings and cones are
the things to need replacment. If I need parts, I scavenge from other hubs
left behind by folks who destroyed their rims, and left everything behind at
the shop. Most shops will have buckets of replacement parts. And as a last
resort, stuff can be catalogue ordered. I inherited a thrashed set of
Campagnolo wheels last year. The owner must have been using these for
underwater bicycle polo. Without rebuilding the wheel, I was able to
replace the cones, the balls and even the cups. Knocking out the cups was
as difficult as removing cartridge bearings - same tool. I used replacement
cups from a cheap set of Shimano hubs - almost all old-style hubs have the
same cup dimensions.
>
> Some high quality hubs such as Hope use such bearings.


I've got some Hope hubs. And SRAM, Specialized, Suntour, Sanshin, Ringle,
Syncros, Hugi, WTB and a bunch of others. They sit in boxes because $25
Shimano hubs are better made, and will last longer.
>
> Why is it not more common?
>
> CC
>

Because they are a poor design and flogged by hand-to-mouth manufacturers.
These hubs are inexplicably supported by elitists that think that uncommon
or expensive stuff is always better, or are running some vindictive crusade
against Shimano. Sometimes big manufacturers with market power just make
good stuff.
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
>>Zog The Undeniable wrote:
>>>Cup and cone bearings can take axial loads a bit better. They're
>>>also more easily serviceable with basic tools, whereas with cartridge
>>>bearings you need to obtain the correct type and the tools to fit
>>>them, which is tricky in the wilds of Nepal.


> Chalo wrote:
>>See my earlier comment about many people being mystified by cartridge
>>bearings. To service and adjust a cup & cone hub, you'll at least
>>need cone wrenches, but for many cartridge bearing hubs you can get
>>away with just a couple of adjustable wrenches and a mallet (sometimes
>>skipping the mallet).


Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
> Could you explain the procedure to this one? How can you push the bearing
> out without a fluted-end shaft like on the Park headset cup remover, or a
> bearing puller?


Chalo's right on. Remove an end nut and whack the axle.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
J

JeffWills

Guest
Dave Mayer wrote:
<snip>
>
> Sure, if you can find these. I spent several hours and 5 bike shops the
> last time I tried to find standard-issue 6001 cartridge replacments. And
> the shop wanted $25 for a pair of cartridge bearings that you should be able
> to source wholesale for $3. If you were willing to order 1000....
>


Next time, look in the Yellow Pages under "bearings". Most medium-size
cities have an industrial bearing supplier. If that's too tough, take
your 6001 bearing to the nearest auto parts store- many automotive
alternators use standard-size sealed cartridge bearings. I'd bet
there's 5 auto parts stores for each bike shop.

Jeff
 
C

Chalo

Guest
Dave Mayer wrote:
>
> I spent several hours and 5 bike shops the
> last time I tried to find standard-issue 6001 cartridge replacments. And
> the shop wanted $25 for a pair of cartridge bearings that you should be able
> to source wholesale for $3. If you were willing to order 1000....


How 'bout ten for a buck apiece?

http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/MBB/Kit682

Cartridge bearings are easier to find, and cheaper to buy, than hub
cones. Replace them, and a hub runs like new-- unlike some warmed-over
piece of Shimano junk with pitted cups and replacement cones that cost
$50 per set.

http://harriscyclery.net/site/page.cfm?PageID=49&SKU=HU3561
http://harriscyclery.net/site/page.cfm?PageID=49&SKU=HU3562

Chalo Colina
 
B

Bruce Jackson

Guest
Chalo wrote:

> It's certainly less profitable to sell expensive parts that are
> indefinitely rebuildable than to sell similarly expensive parts that
> deteriorate irreparably over time and require more frequent
> replacement.


Bearings of both types will last as long as you care to use them
with sufficient maintenance.

I own cup and cone Campagnolo hubs from the '70's that still
work perfectly with the original cups and cones and I have
cartridge bearing hubs (Bullseye) from the '80's that still spin
smoothly on their original cartridges.

I overhaul them when necessary. I clean and regrease the cup
and cone bearnings the typical way; to overhaul the cartridges
I carefully pry the seal off with the tip of a knife, clean with
solvent, then repack with grease and press the seal back on.
I suppose I could be lazy and replace the cartridges rather than
overhaul them. I have some old SunTour sealed bearing hubs
and while better sealed than the Bullseyes they are a PITA to
overhaul so I never rode them much; also the SunTour axles
seem to be a rather odd threading so it always takes a lot of
searching for the right one whenever I need a new axle. The
axles in Bullseye hubs are indestructable so they never need
replacement.
 

Similar threads

J
Replies
1
Views
389
J
A
Replies
4
Views
541
A