Seeking advise on upgrades to my old Trek 5500

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by pranarun, Aug 2, 2014.

  1. pranarun

    pranarun New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi,
    I've read a couple threads here, but decided to request specifics.
    I bought a 1999 Trek 5500, (although it's equipped w/ mostly Ultregra, 6500 9 spd, don't know the history of bike).
    I'm middle-aged, fit, 160, 5'8, ride 2-4 times / wk, 1-3 hrs. I live in the desert with some hills, lots of wind, some rough roads. Looking for comfort & durability overall.
    So, got a good deal, because it has flat bars w Deore shifters.
    I want to put road bars on it, and have been looking at used options like 105 or Scram shifters).
    It has a "adapter sleeve" on fork steer to allow for 1 1/8 stem, making it a lot easier to find replacements, as it's actually a 1" steer).

    I want to modify the gearing to better climb, it has 53 / 39 - 12 / 23. After reading up, it seems I can either get a 38, (smallest available for my Ultegra 130 BCD crank), and possibly an 12 / 28 to save money. I've read that a 50 / 11 is taller / higher than a 53 / 12. But will a 38 / 28 give me good climb ability.
    If that isn't low enough for some climbs, (I prefer to spin in the saddle like many mt. bikers), I will need to go compact.
    Question: What are my options for BB's, since it has the Octalink V! I think. I think it's an English tread 68mm width.
    The Ultegra RD has a medium cage to (accept a larger cassette?).
    If I keep the current crank, can I bump up to a 10 spd, if I buy 10 spd shifters & chain, (and cassette[​IMG]

    Also, I was thinking of putting Cont Gatorskins, 25mm, though there's little chain-stay clearance.

    Any help or advise is appreciated to save me time & money, and get this bike into the shape I need it for happy miles.
    Jerry
     
    Tags:


  2. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    3,233
    Likes Received:
    95
    I'm surprised you haven't complained about front shifts with the Deore levers.

    Your rear derailleur will handle a 28t cog without trouble. I don't know where you're finding the 38t chain ring for 130 mm bcd, but I'd be careful with this. Getting a ring that small means cutting the teeth very close to the bolt holes, and I've know chains to skate over the the lips on the crank that separate the two rings, after things get worn down a little bit. Some guys work around this by filing the lips down. To me, it's only one tooth on a pretty large cog, so it's not worth the bother and risk.

    If you stick with 9-speed, your shifter choices are to find something used and in good condition on ebay or buy new Sora. Sora is Shimano's only remaining 9-speed road drivetrain, but the shifters are really quite decent, same lever profile and paddles as the older 10-speed stuff. Your current bottom bracket is Octalink V[ersion] 1, which refers to the width of the splined section. Replacements are still being made, although in some neighborhoods you might have to special order. Do not use V2 with this crank.

    If you go to 10-speed, the rear derailleur and chain rings should still work. You'll need levers, chain, cassette, and a front derailleur. The 9-speed cage is a bit too wide for crisp shifts with a 10-speed chain.

    If you decide to replace the crankset, there really isn't much reason for not going compact (110 mm bcd). The 34t inner ring will come in handy as you get older. If you stick with Shimano, it will take threaded outboard Hollowtech II bottom bracket bearings. Different brands of crank have their own BBs, but Shimano has the best bearings. Don't mix brands, like, say, Shimano bearings with FSA cranks. It will screw up the chain line.

    The difference between 53/12 and 50/11 is so small it's not worth talking about. About 27 cm of rollout per rev.

    I like the idea of shimming the steerer to 1-1/8". This will give you a good selection of stems and handlebars with 31.8 mm clamps. I don't like extensions that raise the handlebar, especially on bikes with head tubes this short. It introduces a lot of flex.

    And you should have no trouble fitting 25 mm tires. One thing Trek has always done right is making the frame gaps wide enough for fatter tires.

    And now here comes the pitch from alfeng on converting the whole rig to Campagnolo, or at least getting Campagnolo levers to work by hubbubbing the cables. I feel it coming.
     
  3. pranarun

    pranarun New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Oldbobcat,bars, the remaining
    I'm really thankful for the reply, your saving me even more research & possibly headaches by get incorrect replacements.
    I'm with you on the 38 / 130 BCD, I can mash pretty well, (I climb mtns.), and want as much meat on stress points of those rings.
    So, sounds like a compact is the way to go, especially if I'm able to use a replacement Hollowtech II (correct?) crank. Does this mean the Ocalink comes out, (which I'm assuming is the bottom bracket), and replaced with the Hollowtech?

    Since I would be dropping 5 teeth (39 to a 34), I wonder if I could leave me present cassette on. I'm thinking of just getting a longer spread cassette as mentioned, (11-26 maybe), which should give a wide range of climbing but good top end. If I go this route, I might as well bump to 10 spd, since I need shifters anyway.

    Regarding the steerer, I think with a 7 or 10 degree, 110 mm stem, I would be close. I'm ok with the seat height / bar heights that it has, but feel I need to stretch out a bit more. That's an old Control Tech set back post on there now, between that & the old saddle I'm unable to move it further back, (so I'm considering a carbon setback post). The Rickey stem is a 17 degree 105 on the bike, I flipped it to lower the bars.

    Would I need to jump to a high end range, fairly new stuff, to get the clean look of the internally routed shifters, (brakes & shift)? Otherwise, thanks for the advise on Sora, (although I don't want to hurt the bikes feelings, since it probably started it's like with DA).

    Thanks for covering the tire issue too.

    I also appreciate the importance of keeping fairly uniform, when mixing certain brands. There seems to be a decent selection of compact hollowtech, 172.5 for this typical 68mm English thread, correct).
    As nice looking & functioning Campy is, I need simple & easy, (I'm no mechanic, but am learning).

    I've actually located a few bikes for $300 - $500 with 105 & compact, and was thinking of taking the components & selling the frame. Now that I'm getting good info on what might be compatible, I'll keep looking.

    Thanks again for taking the time to respond. I think I'm like many, I want a nice, light, fairly fast bike, that's comportable, and does cost several thousand dollars. I also like an more old school look & vintage, (as I have road a 90's Klein for 20 yrs.).
    Jerry
     
  4. mpre53

    mpre53 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,098
    Likes Received:
    87
    The cheapest thing you can do is swap out the cassette for a 12-27 or 12-28. Before you spend more money than necessary. Without knowing your area, it's impossible to say whether 39/28 will get it done. I do know that even in my area, which is flat to rolling with most climbs under 200', 39/23 won't cut it for me. However, my winter bike is an ancient Schwinn LeTour with a 52/40 crank and a 6 cog 13-28 freewheel, and 40/28 gets me up anything, albeit more slowly than on a compact with 34/23. I'm running 12-25 on the rear on my compact, but I use 34/25 so rarely that I may eventually run 11-23 back there. The 25 is really my security blanket. :big-smile:
     
  5. pranarun

    pranarun New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Mpre53,

    We have a wide variety here around Palm Springs, Ca. rolling desert rds., gradual 3-6 % grades, many small hillside communities with steep (10 + grade), and then the famous Tram Rd., which the Amgen tour finished on a year ago (2nd day stage), with 15% at the top. I doubt I'll be riding this, but maybe.

    So, if I start with a compact up front, I can leave my present 12-23 & see how it goes. It seems it makes little difference, (maybe Oldbobcat can correct me on this), to the crank if I run a 9, or later bump to a 10 spd?

    It's good to know a 34 - 25 should be fairly good.

    j
     
  6. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    3,233
    Likes Received:
    95
    If you're replacing the crankset, bottom bracket, and levers, it makes more sense to get the front derailleur and cassette for 10-speed. Front derailleurs are fairly cheap, and cassettes are a disposables--they should be replaced when worn, generally at 4-8k mile intervals, depending on your chain hygiene and replacement schedule. But if you're trying to do this in steps, yes, a 10-speed crankset will handle 9-speed chains with no problem. I'll leave the calculation of final drive ratios to the student.

    Regarding the bottom bracket, Octalink V1 is only for that 9-speed generation of Hollowtech road cranks, so if you change the crankset you'll need the corresponding bottom bracket. While I think FSA's cranks are good, I've found Shimano's bottom brackets more durable, and they're less expensive, too--around $24-30. Sticking with Shimano will make your life easier.

    To get under-the-tape shift cables for 10-speed, you need 5700 (105), 6700 (Ultegra), or 7900 (Dura-Ace) levers. 6700 and 7900 are already out of production, and 11-speed 105 is already in production for the 2015 model year. I don't know if Shimano has plans to keep producing 5700 levers, cranksets, and derailleurs, but chains, cassettes, and chain rings will be around a lot longer.

    And in case you're thinking about asking, 11-speed requires a wider cassette body so you'd be looking at a new rear wheel.
     
  7. pranarun

    pranarun New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks Oldbobcat,

    Am I able to purchase a Shimano crank Hollowtech II and have the bearing (external I guess is what they are?) fit ok on this bike, (i.e. a 10 spd?
    If so, then I have lots of options / choices to locate a compact set up.
    Quote: Regarding the bottom bracket, Octalink V1 is only for that 9-speed generation of Hollowtech road cranks, so if you change the crankset you'll need the corresponding bottom bracket.
    Is the above info if I'm am to find a Hollowtech II crank to bolt on to my exiting BB / "spindle", as opposed to a whole new crank & BB?

    I don't need 11 spd, and can probably be fine with 9, so I'll keep looking to see what kind of deals are out there, (whether it be 9 or 10).
    I know that chain, shifters & cassette have to be the same number, (9, 10 or 11), but the crank & derailleurs are interchangeable, for the most part.

    At least now, I have a good idea about what will work & fit, so I can get this bike the way I like it.

    j
     
  8. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    3,233
    Likes Received:
    95
    Yup. Outboard bearing bottom brackets were first designed to work seemlessly with traditional threaded bottom bracket shells--68 mm British threaded or 70 mm Italian threaded, and then later for 68 or 73 mm British threaded mountain bikes.

    It all got weird when manufacturers went to press-fit, but you don't have to worry about that. If it has English threads and says 105, Ultegra, or Dura-Ace, it will work on your Trek with a Hollowtech II road crankset. FSA, Truvative, SRAM, and the others have their own bottom brackets. If you buy from a local shop or a good online dealer, they will help with your selections.
     
  9. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,723
    Likes Received:
    126
    HMMMmmmmm ...

    About a decade ago, I put a 38t 130BCD Chainring on an FSA Gossamer Crankset whose large Chainring must have been a 53t ... and, there were no issues shifting when using Campagnolo shifters ...

    • FYI. As far as the amount of metal/("meat") on the Chainring, a 38t Chainring on a 130BCD crankset is essentially akin to a 39t Chainring on a 135BCD (aka Campagnolo) crankset.

    I do not know what issues YOU encountered with a 38t inner Chainring other than asking the Shimano shifters to move the chain even further than if the inner were a 39t Chainring ... I suppose THAT could certainly be problematic depending on the load on the drivetrain regardless of the Chainrings OTHERWISE Shimano would not have two ('A' & 'B') different Chainring designations

    Regardless, let me say that the Ultegra 6500/6503 crankset is still MY favorite Road crankset ...

    And, while Shimano may always be on the cutting edge of ramping-and-pinning development, the difference between the ramping-and-pinning on a 9-speed Ultegra or Dura Ace Chainring and the first generation 10-speed Ultegra & Dura Ace Chainrings wasn't that great (if at all perceivable -- I didn't put a micrometer on the Chainrings to compare them & my assessment is based on a visual glance at Chainrings from the two generations); so, unless the comparison is with one of the newer, super-duper Shimano Cranksets whose Chainrings are, themselves, Hollowtech (!?!), I don't think that the average person will notice a difference between 9-speed Shimano Ultegra Chainrings & any of the 10-speed Shimano Ultegra outer Chainrings.

    So, unless there is a physical problem with the Octalink BB and/or the change is not being made for cosmetic reasons, I would not bother changing the current Ultegra 6500 Crankset for a new one.

    Now, as far as choosing-and-using Campagnolo shifters ...

    Why not?

    I guess that it needs to be stated that unlike paid reviewers OR retail outlets for whom the sale of groups-or-bikes-with-OEM-groups can have a greater profit, I do not benefit from any rider choosing-and-using Campagnolo shifters ...

    • BTW. If I were a paid shill OR if I worked at an LBS then I would probably push Shimano & SRAM, too ...

    Campagnolo shifters are:

    1. functionally better
      • NOT handicapped by "dwell" function well with UN-ramped/UN-pinned Chainrings!!!
    2. NOT handicapped by either SRAM's elegantly-designed but handicapped-by-lack-of-trim ("fixed" with "Yaw") front shifter or SRAM's poor customer service (in North America)
      • WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE?
    3. less expensive, even at retail, for a comparable component level shifters from those 'S' brands
      • the problem with Campagnolo is that EVERYTHING else emblazoned with the name usually costs MORE
      • but, it is not necessary to use Campagnolo chains (I prefer Shimano chains), derailleurs (!?!), hubs/etc. with Campagnolo shifters WHY PAY MORE?
        ​
    Is it really that smart to think that the emperor's new clothes looks THAT good just because the paid reviewers say so?

    Is it wrong to be a wise shopper if the cyclist is a non-sponsored rider?!?
     
  10. oldbobcat

    oldbobcat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    3,233
    Likes Received:
    95
    It's not about the shifter, alf. It's the space between the valleys of the teeth and the mounting hardware. You got lucky, I guess.
     
  11. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,680
    Likes Received:
    377
    I too would stick with what you have, no sense to going out and spending a boatload of money just to change things to a different groupset.

    For easier hill climbing you need a compact gearing for the chainrings like 50/34 but the crank will need to be a 110 mm PCD not a 130 so you may need to get a new crank, 105 represents a great value for what you get, not as light as Ultegra but a lot cheaper by at least a $100. A gear cluster of 12/28 would work great too. You might be able to "mash" really well, which is good thing by the way, but spinning at higher cadences is better for your knees and ankles than mashing.

    I think your research did you well, the gear choices are right on the money.

    I'm not so sure I agree with the Sora recommendation, my opinion is that you can find new old stock or gently used 9 speed in 105 for just about $25 at the most above the cost of Sora new old stock and be way ahead on durability and functionality. OR you can get a brand new 9 speed shifter made for Performance called Forte, probably made by Microshift; see: http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1080516_-1_400194__400194 Here is a another forum discussing using a 10 speed shifter on a 9 speed system: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=11635 HOWEVER as Alfeng said the Campy is a better shifter and will work according to everything I read on the internet. OR, another option, howbeit a quite weird one, is to simply go with bar end shifters and non integrated brake levers...ok, now I'm ducking from the stones being thrown at me.
     
  12. pranarun

    pranarun New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Alfeng & Froze,

    Thanks for these comments, more good info to hone in on this fix.
    I really like the crank that's on the bike now too, I usually prefer ol skool look. I can't detect any issues with the BB the way it is, no telling how many miles on it, as I'm 3rd owner.
    I might as well begin with a 12-28, but depending on what I find, (been looking),in the way of shifters, may switch over to 10 spd, (but it's not a necessity.

    Olsbobcat notified me I'd be hearing about Campy shifters, ha!
    I not against them, IF, they convert right across, are same or less than some used 105's, and work as good or better, (which you stated they are).
    I'm no mechanic, but know & do most stuff on my bike, I just don't want problems with dialing them in, or re-curing adjustments. Alfeng, you do bring up good points about campy shifters, (I wouldn't know

    I've always like the looks of campy, and heard great things, (a friend has several high-end Pinerello's with campy record, a couple being elec.).

    And Froze, I'm with you, I rarely mash, prefer the mt. bike climbers spin in the saddle, with spurts out of saddle, on climbs.

    Thanks for the other info too.

    I'll be hitting the web for replacements tomorrow, after I climb San Jacinto, (10,834 ft.), but I cheat, & ride the tram to 8,500 ft. to start.
    j
     
  13. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,723
    Likes Received:
    126
    Quote:Originally Posted by pranarun .Olsbobcat notified me I'd be hearing about Campy shifters, ha!
    I not against them, IF, they convert right across, are same or less than some used 105's, and work as good or better, (which you stated they are).
    I'm no mechanic, but know & do most stuff on my bike, I just don't want problems with dialing them in, or re-curing adjustments. ...

    FWIW. IMO, you will probably spend MORE time wrapping your handlebar tape than doing anything else when converting over to Campagnolo shifters vs. any other brand of shifter BECAUSE ...
    • ... it's pretty much a straight forward disconnect-the-old & reconnect-the-new process vs. with Shimano (where you will also need to buy a 10-speed Cassette + new 10-speed front derailleur & 10-speed chain) & SRAM (where you may need everything).
    For those who need the "math" ... here it is .... [IMG ALT=""]http://www.cyclingforums.com/content/type/61/id/269520/width/350/height/700[/IMG] In other words, with a set of 11-speed Campagnolo shifters + YOUR current Shimano derailleurs, the NET is 9-speed Shimano-indexing ... With a set of 10-speed Campagnolo shifters, you would want to hubbub the rear derailleur's cable attachment to create 9-speed Shimano-indexing ... FYI. This is how THE really-not-that-hard-but-apparently-mentally-daunting-for-some [COLOR=FF00AA]hubbbub[/COLOR] connection looks ... [IMG ALT=""]http://www.cyclingforums.com/content/type/61/id/278045/width/350/height/700[/IMG]
     
  14. Froze

    Froze Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    4,680
    Likes Received:
    377
    Alfeng, that is an extremely good explanation of how to get all of that to work, I could not find how to do it just read it could be done. You should post this on other forums because I can guarantee you this has come up before and will continue to come up because there are still millions of 9 speed bikes around with people thinking they have to trash either the bike or the system and pay big bucks to have it converted or get a new bike, and I doubt very many LBS's either know about this or don't want others to find out.
     
  15. pranarun

    pranarun New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the info Alfeng,

    My understanding, is a person do Not need to change front or rear derailleur to accommodate 9,10 or 11 spd with Shimano, (chain / shifters & cassette yes).

    Also, I don't really undertand that chart, so I would be taking your word, (and hopefully, direct experience), that this Hubbub replacement will work, and not create problems, either during installation, or afterwards.
    I appreciate your going to the length you have, and I'm still interested. The photo is most helpful.

    But, if I have to purchase 11 spd Campy, which is the latest / greatest of their line, I'm not up for spending over $200, (I've check Univ Cycles, Nasbar, Ebay & others), when I can most likely find 105 for a lot less.
    I like campy, always felt their products reflected more detail & style, and maybe functionality.

    If you have a connection for resonable priced campy shifters, I may be willing to give it a go.
    Can you explain how that cable routing in the photo works, which you mention, can "change" the 10 spd campy shifters into only shifting 9 times?

    Thanks again, Jerry
     
  16. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,723
    Likes Received:
    126
    Well, you CAN certainly buy a set of 105 shifters ... But, IMO, they will not work as well for the fore mentioned reason (i.e., "dwell"). I very much believe that you are misinformed and that you will need a 10-speed Shimano front derailleur if you want to use 10-speed Shimano shifters + 10-speed Shimano chain OTHERWISE you will have dodgy shifting between chainrings. You can buy (new) Campagnolo shifters on eBay for less than $200 ... less than $150 if you are a wise shopper. Used Campagnolo shifters (except for Record 11-speed) generally cost less. FYI. In theory, if you change the cable anchoring then you change the geometry of the parallelogram's PULL RATE ... With most 8-/9-speed (and supposedly 10-speed Road) Shimano rear derailleurs, there are THREE cable anchoring options ... the "normal postion at 6 o'clock, the position at 9 o'clock ("old Dura Ace") and the position at 3 o'clock ("hubbub").
     
Loading...
Loading...