Sprinting and/or anaerobic training.

Discussion in 'Power Training' started by Peter11, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. Peter11

    Peter11 New Member

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    I started this topic because my 5sec and 1min power are my weakness. So i would like to train my weakness for next season. So if you guys have some tips for training, i would like to hear it. Im not sure how should i plan my training. I can train about 10-25 hours a week so i have the time. But if i do z6-z7 intervals, can i still mix it up with quantity or should the quantity be lower? I have good base and FTP and 5min power so i think it would be good to focus on my weakness now. Both of the 5sec and 1min power and very short efforts, so if i just want to improve 5sec power i also improve my 1min a little. Couple of questions:

    - I guess for 5sec power it would be example: 10x6-10sec with full recovery (5min-10min?)
    - If i want to train 1min power, should i do first efforts below the 1min power and with full recovery (5-10min?)
    - Any maxium efforts between 5sec-1min will help?
    - How many sessions per week? With a lot of quantity or not?
    - Sprinting with turbo trainer? If using only turbotrainer, should i focus on 1min power only?
    - How much YOU have improved those powers and how (what did you do, how much, how long, weeks/months?)
     
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  2. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    If I was training my 5 and 60 second power, I would do it at the end of my day's training. Finish up with 20 minutes at FTP and then do the intervals. I want to be tired and have my heart rate near LT. To set the duration of the work and rest intervals I would use my heart rate. Work until my heart rate is at its max. Rest until my heart rate is at LT. Set the effort to make the duration work out.

    I would do as many as I could every day. That number should go up over time. But sometimes the number is 0 repeats.
     
  3. pedalbiker

    pedalbiker New Member

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    I tend not to work on these things in the winter time as they're very race specific and I like to do more general work in the winter, meaning tempo and threshold stuff.

    Later, though (or whenever you'd like to try), I would do them when completely fresh, early on in the ride after a solid warm up. I would do them once or twice a week as a structured workout. I also tend to do them a lot more on group rides (especially sprints and up KOMs) so I wouldn't do any structured stuff if I were doing a lot of group rides or races. But still, that wouldn't be more than 2-3x a week and maybe only 2-3 really, really hard 1min efforts in any given ride. Sprints you can do lots more of.

    I like to mix things up for sprinting, though. I'll do dead-stop big gear sprints in a 53x14-15 where I'm kicking as hard as I can from the start and just winding it up until I'm pedaling 120+ by the end. I'd also do flying starts where I jump in a bigger gear (53x13 maybe) from about 20 mph. I'd also do jumps on hills for 5-10 secs. All of those things help a bit with my jump. I've never had a huge jump, but from the beginning of the season until the end this year I went from about 1200 to just over 1400. That's fairly typical for me, though, and I think is more of a specificity thing than any actual improvements.

    One minute power is a little different, though, and for that I found that full-out 45-90 sec intervals a couple of times a week (again, either structured or just in a group ride) help with those, but really only help the most when I'm approaching race shape and already have a good bunch of fitness.

    I wouldn't do anything on the turbo trainer as there's no possible way you can replicate the bike wrenching, puke-inducing forces you'd need to really go full out for 5s-1min. I'd use hills for the one minute as that will probably be easiest to generate the most power.
     
  4. gavinfree

    gavinfree Member

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    I know this is pretty late, but this is probably the best advice I've heard in a long time relating to cycling and training for power. For future reference. :3
     
  5. fergie

    fergie Member

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  6. Vickeree

    Vickeree Member

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    I've read in another article that it's best to have a 1:4-6 ratio of work and active recovery when training anaerobic capacity (for example, 10 sec max effort with 50 active recovery. Training this way where you do sprint efforts with active aerobic rest will help build mitochondria in your fast twitch muscle ( which interestingly comes pre-equipped with slow twitch muscles. The key is the active long rest in between as too much anaerobic sprints with little rest in between would burn out those mitochondria due to high amounts of lactic acid.
     
  7. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    You do understand that there is a genetic test that will tell how effective training is on short duration performance.

    Only a few percent of racers respond to the training methods suggested here.
     
  8. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    I'd say completely the opposite of Old Guy.

    Do sprint training when fresh. Sprint at the speeds to intend to sprint at - if you're a roadie then 30+mph is reasonable, if needs be use a slight downhill to get you up to speed without having to smash yourself and leave yourself in a position to actually use your phosphate stores on sprinting at 30+ mph and not getting there in the first place.

    30 second efforts at full gas are also effective - if you're predominantly a slow twitcher like me. Do a set of 6 to 10 and rest fully in between.

    None of this is about heart rate. It's about lower and coordination at high revs and high power, which is why you need to be able to sprint full gas from a fairly high speed and not from 10mph in a big gear.
     
  9. kylerlittle

    kylerlittle Member

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    That's really interesting, I agree with swampy.
     
  10. ZXD22

    ZXD22 Member

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    How come you agree with him and what do you like about his idea?

    Also would say these sprinting trainings are pretty well. It is especially useful for going up and attacking hills at an angle. It teaches your muscle to work fast and productive which is nice. Maybe for a beginner start out at,15 second sprints and 60 second slow to normal speeds then up that to 30 seconds to 60 and so on. That would be a great sprint program. Maybe 5-10 sets depending on how you feel.
     
  11. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    It's because I bring the awesome. :p

    60 seconds is a duration I personally would steer clear of if going for a 'full gas' effort. It's a place of nightmares and much, much pain. If you're a kilo TT God then have at time but 60 seconds sucks.

    30 to 35 seconds would be a much happier place but would also allow you to keep the effort higher and allow for some recovery afterwards.

    Ever wonder why even the best roadies like Cav go from ~200 meters out - it's because the effort is normally around 10 seconds. If there's anything left in the phosphate stores then that'll give you about half of that duration and the rest if hang on and suffer fueled by pride, adrenaline and a desire to win.

    Hill sprints are a different beast but the timing is about the same - that's why you see people that leave the sprint late on the Mur de Huy in the Fleche Wallone often taking the win. Mur de Huy - sounds remarkably similar to Murder We.
     
  12. kylerlittle

    kylerlittle Member

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    I agree with you as well though.
     
  13. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    Do you want to train pure sprint ability or lactate tolerance? Pick one or the other... It sounds like you're going for the latter.

    In a race there'll be many moments where you will have to go above threshold for a sprint. I was never a sprinter when I raced (5'11 and ~143lb give or take a few pounds either way) but I can't recall a time where I wasn't hoping for a last gasp effort at the points and I hadn't gone through anaerobic death several times during the final mile. If there was 20 guys in front of me then I'd go fast enough to stay safe and keep up with folk - a 1 in 10 chance of a point on my license, then I'd be giving it everything.

    That was back in the 90's. What I know now is that there's a difference between doing a ton of intervals with minimal rest in between and doing sprints at absolutely best effort with all the rest that you need in between. I could have probably done with the latter rather than more of the former.

    The pure sprinters on the track obviously focus more on the single effort, full recovery when they're in the speed phase of their training. A 5 to 10 second effort at absolutely full gas and that's it for quite a while. Max effort or nothing. For a very well seasoned road guy that may not be the way to go but if you sucked ass at sprinting like I did, then maybe a few weeks of that may not be a bad thing.
     
  14. Vickeree

    Vickeree Member

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    I agree. All out effort bursts followed by long periods of active rest until you feel recovered to develop sprinting power. This will also develop mitochondria in your fast twitch muscles ( as opposed to your slow twitch which comes pre-equipped with it). The key is the intensity as some people get stuck training in the middle, where you train for long periods and the intensity is neither too easy or hard, not enough to make you recover or train or develop aerobic power but not also enough to develop anaerobic power. Also important to do them at the beginning while your central nervous system is still fresh.
     
  15. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Very few people sprint in races. Those who do sprint toward the end - when they are not fresh.

    The best training to win sprints is one that improves your ability to leave the good sprinters out of the sprint.
     
  16. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    It's all well and good to say that it's best to drop the sprinters but lets face it, how many guys solo off the front in a crit? Crits seemingly make up about 1/2 the road races over here. Of the races that are left, most of those really don't have hills big enough to drop the big guys that could have a halfway good sprint. The lumpy races often help those with massive VO2 max abilities - the local wannabe Tom Boonen's of this world rather than someone that has no kick but can climb like a boss.

    The majority of road training does need a massive element of L2/3 work but when you're really hitting L5/6/7 you need to be fresh in order to do it right. Test your ability to do those shorter efforts at the end of long rides to see how you're progressing but to to make big advances, especially if you're a 'slow twitcher' you need to have fresh legs and a full tank of gas.
     
  17. Vickeree

    Vickeree Member

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    well said... Most of sprinting is training your CNS and neuromuscular adaptations and in order to do that properly you need to do it when your fresh otherwise you will adapt and learn poor form and technique when you do them in a fatigued state. Although An Old Guy does have a point, it's important to train yourself to push hard when in a fatigued state but this is more of a mental toughness kind of thing.
     
  18. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    You either have the will to win or you don't. Pushing a bit harder when you're tired doesn't cut the mustard when your f**ked out your brains and ready to barf at the end of a race.

    Doing L4 or L5 at the end of rides sure but specific sprint training? I'd say no...
     
  19. An old Guy

    An old Guy Member

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    Most of response to training is genetic not due to a specific type of training. Unless one has the specific set of genes that makes one a sprinter and makes specific training effective, there are much easier ways to win the "sprint."

    The last time I watched a series of Cat1-pro crits: 4 pros on a pro team set up their lead out train and cruised to the win. The Cat1s were too beat up to sprint. Working with friends seems to work for amateurs as well.
     
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