Stress score for Giro?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Robert Chung, May 12, 2004.

  1. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    From the live commentary to today's stage:

    "The peloton isn't in a great hurry today, and is still
    together after 83 km of riding. As mentioned before, this is
    how the Italians race in the Giro. It's very different to
    the Tour or the Vuelta, when the attacks start from the gun
    and don't stop until at least one rider "breaks the elastic"
    and the peloton stops chasing for a while. In the Giro, the
    speed tends to increase as the stage goes on, and the
    overall average speed is generally lower than the other two
    Grand Tours.

    Although the racing can be slow at times, this style should
    put less stress on the riders"
     
    Tags:


  2. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Robert Chung
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > From the live commentary to today's stage:
    >
    > "The peloton isn't in a great hurry today, and is still
    > together after 83 km of riding. As mentioned before, this
    > is how the Italians race in the Giro. It's very different
    > to the Tour or the Vuelta, when the attacks start from the
    > gun and don't stop until at least one rider "breaks the
    > elastic" and the peloton stops chasing for a while. In the
    > Giro, the speed tends to increase as the stage goes on,
    > and the overall average speed is generally lower than the
    > other two Grand Tours.
    >
    > Although the racing can be slow at times, this style
    > should put less stress on the riders"

    So you think lower average speed equates to less stress?
    You'll need more information about the racing besides
    average speed to make an accurate estimate about the amount
    of stress on a rider.

    -WG
     
  3. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    warren wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, Robert Chung
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> From the live commentary to today's stage:
    >>
    >> "The peloton isn't in a great hurry today, and is still
    >> together after 83 km of riding. As mentioned before, this
    >> is how the Italians race in the Giro. It's very different
    >> to the Tour or the Vuelta, when the attacks start from
    >> the gun and don't stop until at least one rider "breaks
    >> the elastic" and the peloton stops chasing for a while.
    >> In the Giro, the speed tends to increase as the stage
    >> goes on, and the overall average speed is generally lower
    >> than the other two Grand Tours.
    >>
    >> Although the racing can be slow at times, this style
    >> should put less stress on the riders"
    >
    > So you think lower average speed equates to less stress?

    Nope, not me. Jeff does.
     
  4. Jeff Jones

    Jeff Jones Guest

    "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > warren wrote:
    > > In article <[email protected]>, Robert Chung
    > > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > > So you think lower average speed equates to less stress?
    >
    > Nope, not me. Jeff does.
    >
    ...and I didn't say lower average speed = less stress.

    It was more a comment on the fact that they do less "racing
    kilometres" in the Giro compared to the Tour/Vuelta.
    Analyse a typical stage and you'll see what I mean.
    Sometimes in the Tour they can be racing for the first
    100km at 50 km/h before it settles down, and it picks up at
    the end, the same as the Giro does. In the Vuelta the
    stages are shorter, but they're still generally flat out
    from the gun, maybe with an interlude in the middle before
    getting hard again at the end.

    The average speed in the Tour and Vuelta is typically higher
    than the Giro, which is a by-product of the style of racing.
    I guess my basic premise is that more racing kilometres =
    more stress on the body.

    Jeff
     
  5. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    Jeff Jones wrote:
    > "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > berlin.de...
    >> warren wrote:
    >>> In article <[email protected]>, Robert Chung
    >>> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> So you think lower average speed equates to less stress?
    >>
    >> Nope, not me. Jeff does.
    >>
    > ...and I didn't say lower average speed = less stress.
    >
    > It was more a comment on the fact that they do less
    > "racing kilometres" in the Giro compared to the
    > Tour/Vuelta. Analyse a typical stage and you'll see what I
    > mean. Sometimes in the Tour they can be racing for the
    > first 100km at 50 km/h before it settles down, and it
    > picks up at the end, the same as the Giro does. In the
    > Vuelta the stages are shorter, but they're still generally
    > flat out from the gun, maybe with an interlude in the
    > middle before getting hard again at the end.
    >
    > The average speed in the Tour and Vuelta is typically
    > higher than the Giro, which is a by-product of the style
    > of racing. I guess my basic premise is that more racing
    > kilometres = more stress on the body.
    >
    > Jeff

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&-
    db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14514543
     
  6. Jeff Jones

    Jeff Jones Guest

    "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&-
    db=pubmed&dopt=Ab stract&list_uids=14514543
    >
    OK, but I'm not sure if that's quite the same thing
    (it's close).

    Maybe I'm using the wrong definition of "stress" but I'd say
    that a 40 km ride done in 50 minutes is harder on the body
    than a 40 km ride done in 1hr20min, even though the time on
    the bike for the latter is considerably longer. Or taken to
    an extreme, doing 1 km in 1 minute will knock you around
    more than doing 1 km in 2 minutes.

    Jeff
     
  7. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    Jeff Jones wrote:
    > "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > berlin.de...
    >>
    >>
    >
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&-
    db=pubmed&dopt=Ab
    > stract&list_uids=14514543
    >>
    > OK, but I'm not sure if that's quite the same thing
    > (it's close).
    >
    > Maybe I'm using the wrong definition of "stress" but I'd
    > say that a 40 km ride done in 50 minutes is harder on the
    > body than a 40 km ride done in 1hr20min, even though the
    > time on the bike for the latter is considerably longer.

    Well, in general I'd agree, but is a 40km ride done in 50
    minutes harder than a 1hr20min ride where you cover 22km in
    the first hour and 18km in the last 20? I don't know, and
    that's why I was wondering whether the piano beginnings of
    Giro stages really compensated for the fortissimo endings.

    BTW, here's a related study, same authors, for only the Tour
    and Vuelta: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?c-
    md=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12750600
     
  8. Jeff Jones

    Jeff Jones Guest

    "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > Well, in general I'd agree, but is a 40km ride done in 50
    > minutes harder than a 1hr20min ride where you cover 22km
    > in the first hour and 18km in the last 20? I don't know,
    > and that's why I was wondering whether the piano
    > beginnings of Giro stages really compensated for the
    > fortissimo endings.
    >
    To me, a Giro stage goes like: piano - crescendo -
    fortissmo, whereas a Tour stage starts fortissimo (or forte)
    with a lot of sforzandos, has a short piano interlude in the
    middle, then crescendos to fortissimo punctuated by the odd
    sforzando at the end. I don't know whether they go faster at
    the end of a Giro stage than a Tour stage, but to me it
    seems to be similar. The main difference is the piano
    beginning at the Giro.

    > BTW, here's a related study, same authors, for only the
    > Tour and Vuelta:
    >
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&-
    db=pubmed&dopt=Ab stract&list_uids=12750600
    >
    Interesting as well. Has anyone compared the Giro and the
    Tour like this? I guess the previous study did, although it
    was only n = 1. And is using only three ventilatory
    thresholds a good measure of workload on the body?

    Jeff
     
  9. Robert Chung

    Robert Chung Guest

    Jeff Jones wrote:
    >>
    <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve-
    &db=pubmed&dopt =Abstract&list_uids=12750600>
    >>
    > Interesting as well. Has anyone compared the Giro and the
    > Tour like this? I guess the previous study did, although
    > it was only n = 1. And is using only three ventilatory
    > thresholds a good measure of workload on the body?

    I don't know of anyone else who has, mostly 'cuz the data
    would be hard to come by. These guys had access to HRM data.
    One of the things you'll notice is that the data were
    supplied by Spanish teams, and the Spanish don't send many
    teams to the Giro. There must be data hiding in the Mapei
    vaults somewhere that one could use to compare the Giro and
    the Tour. Use your cyclingnews.com leverage to get Squinzi
    to open up. One of the coauthors of these two studies told
    me they were trying to get a couple of riders to use SRMs on
    the Tour and the Vuelta, but the riders balked. I wondered
    myself about the three interval weighting scheme and my
    rough estimate was that if one used a more finely graduated
    (or continuous) scale the Vuelta was no less "stressful"
    than the Tour (using HR load; Coggan has developed a stress
    scale based on power but, alas, we don't have power data).

    I didn't know the word "sforzando." I like it, and anxiously
    await its use in the live commentary.
     
  10. "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Jeff Jones wrote:
    > >>
    > <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrie-
    > ve&db=pubmed&dopt =Abstract&list_uids=12750600>
    > >>
    [Snippitysnap]
    >
    > I didn't know the word "sforzando." I like it, and
    > anxiously await its use in the live commentary.
    >

    Ditto.

    sfor·zan·do (sfôrt-sän"d½) also for·zan·do (fôrt-sän"d½) --
    adv. --adj. Abbr. sf., sfz. Music. 1. Suddenly and strongly
    accented. Used chiefly as a direction. --n., pl.
    sfor·zan·dos or sfor·zan·di (-d¶). A sforzando tone or
    chord. [Italian, gerund of sforzare, to use force : s-,
    intensive pref. (from Latin ex-; see EX-) + forzare, to
    force (from Vulgar Latin *forti³re, from Latin fortis,
    strong; see FORTIS).] --sfor·zan"do adv.
     
  11. Jeff Jones

    Jeff Jones Guest

    "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > I didn't know the word "sforzando." I like it, and
    > anxiously await its use in the live commentary.
    >
    Just going with the music dynamics analogy. Sforzando =
    attack!
     
  12. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Robert Chung
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Jeff Jones wrote:
    > >>
    > <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrie-
    > ve&db=pubmed&dopt =Abstract&list_uids=12750600>
    > >>
    > > Interesting as well. Has anyone compared the Giro and
    > > the Tour like this? I guess the previous study did,
    > > although it was only n = 1. And is using only three
    > > ventilatory thresholds a good measure of workload on
    > > the body?
    >
    > I don't know of anyone else who has, mostly 'cuz the data
    > would be hard to come by. These guys had access to HRM
    > data. One of the things you'll notice is that the data
    > were supplied by Spanish teams, and the Spanish don't send
    > many teams to the Giro. There must be data hiding in the
    > Mapei vaults somewhere that one could use to compare the
    > Giro and the Tour. Use your cyclingnews.com leverage to
    > get Squinzi to open up.

    Squinzi? How about one of the coaches? I made a comment to
    one that I thought the Tour was harder than the Giro but he
    said the Giro was physically harder than the Tour, in large
    part because the clmbs tend to be harder, mostly because
    they tend to be steeper.

    Even though it's mostly Italian teams in the Giro they race
    very hard (overall) because they care so much about it. The
    Italians don't care nearly as much about racing well in the
    Tour and most other countries don't care as much about the
    Giro as they do the Tour.

    -WG
     
  13. Sonarrat

    Sonarrat Guest

    "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Jeff Jones wrote:
    > >>
    > <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrie-
    > ve&db=pubmed&dopt =Abstract&list_uids=12750600>
    > >>
    > > Interesting as well. Has anyone compared the Giro and
    > > the Tour like this? I guess the previous study did,
    > > although it was only n = 1. And is using only three
    > > ventilatory thresholds a good measure of workload on
    > > the body?
    >
    > I don't know of anyone else who has, mostly 'cuz the data
    > would be hard to come by. These guys had access to HRM
    > data. One of the things you'll notice is that the data
    > were supplied by Spanish teams, and the Spanish don't send
    > many teams to the Giro. There must be data hiding in the
    > Mapei vaults somewhere that one could use to compare the
    > Giro and the Tour. Use your cyclingnews.com leverage to
    > get Squinzi to open up. One of the coauthors of these two
    > studies told me they were trying to get a couple of riders
    > to use SRMs on the Tour and the Vuelta, but the riders
    > balked. I wondered myself about the three interval
    > weighting scheme and my rough estimate was that if one
    > used a more finely graduated (or continuous) scale the
    > Vuelta was no less "stressful" than the Tour (using HR
    > load; Coggan has developed a stress scale based on power
    > but, alas, we don't have power data).
    >
    > I didn't know the word "sforzando." I like it, and
    > anxiously await its use in the live commentary.

    I'm disagree somewhat, because terms like "fortissimo,"
    "piano," "crescendo," etc. refer to volume, not speed. (A
    sforzando is like an exclamation point on a single note
    or chord.)

    There are perfectly acceptable Italian terms in music which
    DO refer to speed and which could be applied in commentary -
    'adagio' or 'lento' for slow, 'andante' for a casual but not
    draggy speed, 'vivace' or 'presto' for fast, and
    'accelerando,' 'stretto' or my favorite, 'stringendo,' for
    the final mad sprint to the line.

    -Sonarrat.
     
  14. Sonarrat

    Sonarrat Guest

    "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Jeff Jones wrote:
    > >>
    > <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrie-
    > ve&db=pubmed&dopt =Abstract&list_uids=12750600>
    > >>
    > > Interesting as well. Has anyone compared the Giro and
    > > the Tour like this? I guess the previous study did,
    > > although it was only n = 1. And is using only three
    > > ventilatory thresholds a good measure of workload on
    > > the body?
    >
    > I don't know of anyone else who has, mostly 'cuz the data
    > would be hard to come by. These guys had access to HRM
    > data. One of the things you'll notice is that the data
    > were supplied by Spanish teams, and the Spanish don't send
    > many teams to the Giro. There must be data hiding in the
    > Mapei vaults somewhere that one could use to compare the
    > Giro and the Tour. Use your cyclingnews.com leverage to
    > get Squinzi to open up. One of the coauthors of these two
    > studies told me they were trying to get a couple of riders
    > to use SRMs on the Tour and the Vuelta, but the riders
    > balked. I wondered myself about the three interval
    > weighting scheme and my rough estimate was that if one
    > used a more finely graduated (or continuous) scale the
    > Vuelta was no less "stressful" than the Tour (using HR
    > load; Coggan has developed a stress scale based on power
    > but, alas, we don't have power data).
    >
    > I didn't know the word "sforzando." I like it, and
    > anxiously await its use in the live commentary.

    I'm disagree somewhat, because terms like "fortissimo,"
    "piano," "crescendo," etc. refer to volume, not speed. (A
    sforzando is like an exclamation point on a single note
    or chord.)

    There are perfectly acceptable Italian terms in music which
    DO refer to speed and which could be applied in commentary -
    'adagio' or 'lento' for slow, 'andante' for a casual but not
    draggy speed, 'vivace' or 'presto' for fast, and
    'accelerando,' 'stretto' or my favorite, 'stringendo,' for
    the final mad sprint to the line.

    -Sonarrat.
     
  15. Jeff Jones

    Jeff Jones Guest

    "Sonarrat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > >
    > > I didn't know the word "sforzando." I like it, and
    > > anxiously await its
    use
    > > in the live commentary.
    >
    > I'm disagree somewhat, because terms like "fortissimo,"
    > "piano," "crescendo," etc. refer to volume, not speed. (A
    > sforzando is like an exclamation point on a single note
    > or chord.)
    >
    I know they refer to volume and not speed, but I didn't
    think up the "piano" analogy in the first place. Robert and
    I merely extended it - probably beyond its capacity. Of
    course it would make more sense to use a speed analogy, but
    that's the beauty of the subtle differences in language.

    Jeff (thinks Crescenzo d'Amore is a pretty cool name for an
    Italian, but that's another thread)
     
  16. Jeff Jones wrote:

    > To me, a Giro stage goes like: piano - crescendo -
    > fortissmo, whereas a Tour stage starts fortissimo (or
    > forte) with a lot of sforzandos, has a short piano
    > interlude in the middle, then crescendos to fortissimo
    > punctuated by the odd sforzando at the end. I don't know
    > whether they go faster at the end of a Giro stage than a
    > Tour stage, but to me it seems to be similar. The main
    > difference is the piano beginning at the Giro.

    I hadn't realized that this was the meaning of the word
    "score" that you were using in the subject line...
     
  17. Sonarrat

    Sonarrat Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "Jeff Jones" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Sonarrat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "Robert Chung" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > > >
    > > > I didn't know the word "sforzando." I like it, and
    > > > anxiously await its
    > use
    > > > in the live commentary.
    > >
    > > I'm disagree somewhat, because terms like "fortissimo,"
    > > "piano," "crescendo," etc. refer to volume, not speed.
    > > (A sforzando is like an exclamation point on a single
    > > note or chord.)
    > >
    > I know they refer to volume and not speed, but I didn't
    > think up the "piano" analogy in the first place. Robert
    > and I merely extended it - probably beyond its capacity.
    > Of course it would make more sense to use a speed analogy,
    > but that's the beauty of the subtle differences in
    > language.
    >
    > Jeff (thinks Crescenzo d'Amore is a pretty cool name for
    > an Italian, but that's another thread)

    I think it's probably a "stage" name, but I agree and he's
    on my LessYourImage fantasy team...

    -Sonarrat.
     
Loading...
Loading...