Stronger/faster MTB f.deraileur?

[Jose]

Hi All,

My FD is kind of weak/slow when it comes to downshift - from the
middle to the inner chainring, for instance. It's one of the first
Shimano Deore models, from back when 9 speed was the newest thing in
the market.

The FD having already been adjusted, several times, by several
diferent people, can I expect any improvement from any other model,
changing the FD only, not the shifter?

If so, what would a more recent/expensive model better than this one,
other than simply being more modern? (I feel that if only this device
had a stronger spring, it would the job much better.)

TIA,
Jose

 

[landotter]

On Mar 7, 2:52 pm, [email protected] (Jose) wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> My FD is kind of weak/slow when it comes to downshift - from the
> middle to the inner chainring, for instance. It's one of the first
> Shimano Deore models, from back when 9 speed was the newest thing in
> the market.
>

Top swing or bottom swing? Even the cheapest Shimano top swing should
dump you to the granny quickly if set up right. Deore model looks to
be around $25. Make sure to rule out dirty cables and shifters first.

 

[daveornee]

Hi All,

My FD is kind of weak/slow when it comes to downshift - from the
middle to the inner chainring, for instance. It's one of the first
Shimano Deore models, from back when 9 speed was the newest thing in
the market.

The FD having already been adjusted, several times, by several
diferent people, can I expect any improvement from any other model,
changing the FD only, not the shifter?

If so, what would a more recent/expensive model better than this one,
other than simply being more modern? (I feel that if only this device
had a stronger spring, it would the job much better.)

TIA,
Jose

What is the tooth count on the rings. Getting a close match on the large ring allows you to set the FD lower and often makes for better downshifting.
Are you using any device to protect from shifting past the smallest chain ring?
What is your cable routing?
Have you checked your cable, housing, housing ends, and how well the cable moves through the entire path when installed?

 

[Hank]

On Mar 7, 12:52 pm, [email protected] (Jose) wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> My FD is kind of weak/slow when it comes to downshift - from the
> middle to the inner chainring, for instance. It's one of the first
> Shimano Deore models, from back when 9 speed was the newest thing in
> the market.

Not to nitpick, but the 9-speed ones are about the most recent Deore
model. The first Deore FD was, what? 1982?

 

[A Muzi]

> [email protected] (Jose) wrote:
>> My FD is kind of weak/slow when it comes to downshift - from the
>> middle to the inner chainring, for instance. It's one of the first
>> Shimano Deore models, from back when 9 speed was the newest thing in
>> the market.

Hank wrote:
> Not to nitpick, but the 9-speed ones are about the most recent Deore
> model. The first Deore FD was, what? 1982?

Yeah, Hank, about then - when touring bikes were 5 or 6 speed, not 9.
Nice product, though. Cute with the little reindeer logo and all.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Jose]

On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 13:34:37 -0800 (PST), landotter
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Top swing or bottom swing? Even the cheapest Shimano top swing should
>dump you to the granny quickly if set up right. Deore model looks to
>be around $25. Make sure to rule out dirty cables and shifters first.

Mine is bottom swing. Cables and shifters seem fine, but I'll check
again.

Thank you!
Jose

 

[Jose]

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 09:16:30 +1100, daveornee
<[email protected]> wrote:

>What is the tooth count on the rings. Getting a close match on the
>large ring allows you to set the FD lower and often makes for better
>downshifting.

24-32-42


>Are you using any device to protect from shifting past the smallest
>chain ring?

None.


>What is your cable routing?

Bottom swing.


>Have you checked your cable, housing, housing ends, and how well the
>cable moves through the entire path when installed?

I'll check again.

Thank you,
Jose

 

[Jose]

On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 15:30:12 -0800 (PST), Hank <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Not to nitpick, but the 9-speed ones are about the most recent Deore
>model. The first Deore FD was, what? 1982?

I'm not going to swear on it, but I have the impression I've had that
bike/FD for at least 8 years.

Anyway, so far it seems that bottom vs. top swing makes a significant
diference; mine is bottom swing.

Regards,
Jose

 

[[email protected]]

On Mar 8, 6:44 am, [email protected] (Jose) wrote:
> On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 15:30:12 -0800 (PST), Hank <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Not to nitpick, but the 9-speed ones are about the most recent Deore
> >model. The first Deore FD was, what? 1982?
>
> I'm not going to swear on it, but I have the impression I've had that
> bike/FD for at least 8 years.
>
> Anyway, so far it seems that bottom vs. top swing makes a significant
> diference; mine is bottom swing.
>
> Regards,
> Jose

Before you get a new FD make sure that it is not sticking somewhere
along the way. Remove it, soak it in cleaner, rinse it and oil the
spring and pivot points really well. Play with the deraillerur to make
sure that the spring pulls the dérailleur with enough force. Also put
a new shifter cable. Once you've done that, if the derailleur is
working properly, it should shift no problem. I have a deore front
derailleur since 93, when I bought my bike. It still shifts without
hesitation both up and down. I don't do much maintenance on my bikes,
but FDs are relatively simple mechanisms that should work forever w/o
problems. Yours is likely sticking somewhere.

Andres

 

[Tom Sherman]

Andrew Muzi wrote:
>> [email protected] (Jose) wrote:
>>> My FD is kind of weak/slow when it comes to downshift - from the
>>> middle to the inner chainring, for instance. It's one of the first
>>> Shimano Deore models, from back when 9 speed was the newest thing in
>>> the market.
>
> Hank wrote:
>> Not to nitpick, but the 9-speed ones are about the most recent Deore
>> model. The first Deore FD was, what? 1982?
>
> Yeah, Hank, about then - when touring bikes were 5 or 6 speed, not 9.
> Nice product, though. Cute with the little reindeer logo and all.

As in <http://www.firstflightbikes.com/Fder61.JPG>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[Jose]

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 07:12:49 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Before you get a new FD make sure that it is not sticking somewhere
>along the way. Remove it, soak it in cleaner, rinse it and oil the
>spring and pivot points really well. Play with the deraillerur to make
>sure that the spring pulls the dérailleur with enough force. Also put
>a new shifter cable. Once you've done that, if the derailleur is
>working properly, it should shift no problem. I have a deore front
>derailleur since 93, when I bought my bike. It still shifts without
>hesitation both up and down. I don't do much maintenance on my bikes,
>but FDs are relatively simple mechanisms that should work forever w/o
>problems. Yours is likely sticking somewhere.

Hi Andres,

Thank you for the sugestions!

I'll likelly start with what's easier for me - cleaning and lubing. If
that fails, I'll install a new shifter cable.

I've just return from a cofee break, and guess what? I passed a bike
locked at the end of my street, with a top pull FD - it seemed so more
obvious and frictionless!

I can clean the path of my shifter cable beneath the bike, since it's
a bottom pull model FD, and lube it, but I guess I'll be dirty and dry
again rather soon ;-P

Is there any way to adjust - increase - chain tension in the area
where it goes through the FD? I was thinking about reducing chain
flexing when it's pushed inwards by the FD ...


Thanks,
Jose

 

[Lou Holtman]

Jose wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 07:12:49 -0800 (PST), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Before you get a new FD make sure that it is not sticking somewhere
>> along the way. Remove it, soak it in cleaner, rinse it and oil the
>> spring and pivot points really well. Play with the deraillerur to make
>> sure that the spring pulls the dérailleur with enough force. Also put
>> a new shifter cable. Once you've done that, if the derailleur is
>> working properly, it should shift no problem. I have a deore front
>> derailleur since 93, when I bought my bike. It still shifts without
>> hesitation both up and down. I don't do much maintenance on my bikes,
>> but FDs are relatively simple mechanisms that should work forever w/o
>> problems. Yours is likely sticking somewhere.
>
> Hi Andres,
>
> Thank you for the sugestions!
>
> I'll likelly start with what's easier for me - cleaning and lubing. If
> that fails, I'll install a new shifter cable.
>
> I've just return from a cofee break, and guess what? I passed a bike
> locked at the end of my street, with a top pull FD - it seemed so more
> obvious and frictionless!
>
> I can clean the path of my shifter cable beneath the bike, since it's
> a bottom pull model FD, and lube it, but I guess I'll be dirty and dry
> again rather soon ;-P
>
> Is there any way to adjust - increase - chain tension in the area
> where it goes through the FD? I was thinking about reducing chain
> flexing when it's pushed inwards by the FD ...
>
>
> Thanks,
> Jose


FD are simple devices though hard to setup correct. The spring tension
is huge compared to the friction of the cable. If it hesitates to move
there is something serious wrong. The filth abuse the FD can take on my
MTB is very large. Actually it never fails.

Lou; downswing, top pull.

 

[A Muzi]

> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Before you get a new FD make sure that it is not sticking somewhere
>> along the way. Remove it, soak it in cleaner, rinse it and oil the
>> spring and pivot points really well. Play with the deraillerur to make
>> sure that the spring pulls the dérailleur with enough force. Also put
>> a new shifter cable. Once you've done that, if the derailleur is
>> working properly, it should shift no problem. I have a deore front
>> derailleur since 93, when I bought my bike. It still shifts without
>> hesitation both up and down. I don't do much maintenance on my bikes,
>> but FDs are relatively simple mechanisms that should work forever w/o
>> problems. Yours is likely sticking somewhere.

Jose wrote:
> I'll likelly start with what's easier for me - cleaning and lubing. If
> that fails, I'll install a new shifter cable.
>
> I've just return from a cofee break, and guess what? I passed a bike
> locked at the end of my street, with a top pull FD - it seemed so more
> obvious and frictionless!
>
> I can clean the path of my shifter cable beneath the bike, since it's
> a bottom pull model FD, and lube it, but I guess I'll be dirty and dry
> again rather soon ;-P
>
> Is there any way to adjust - increase - chain tension in the area
> where it goes through the FD? I was thinking about reducing chain
> flexing when it's pushed inwards by the FD ...

Top pull front changers have their own problems; generally stiffer
action to the outside and a different set of cable issues.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Jose]

On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:52:06 +0100, Lou Holtman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>If it hesitates to move
>there is something serious wrong.

I wouldn't say it hesitates; it just doesn't move inwards enough. It
presses the chain, but it's only when I'm using the 3rd larger cog, or
bigger, that it actually changes into the granny chainring.

I tried to adjust the FD to move the chain inwards *past* the granny
ring (and then work opposite from there to point where it would land
on the granny ring) and simply couldn't achieve that misaglinement :-(


It will work "acceptably" beside me in the garage, but not so well
when I'm riding it outside ;-P


>Lou; downswing, top pull.

Say again? Does your FD cable go below the frame and pulls the FD
spring downwards - like mine - or does it pull the spring upwards??

 

[Jose]

On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 12:04:11 -0600, A Muzi <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Top pull front changers have their own problems; generally stiffer
>action to the outside and a different set of cable issues.

Being a slow rider, I think I might live better with slower
outward/upward/fasterward chainring shifts, than the opposite.

Nevertheless, I'd still prefer to keep my present FD and be able to
improve its functioning.

Other than getting a longer BB, is there any way to move your chainset
slight outwards?

I've bee reading specs of FDs, and admit I don't understand what's
meant by "Chainstay angle 63 to 66 degrees", for instance?
How does this difer to another one, for 66-69 degrees?

And in the same context, what is an "Applicable chain line of 50mm"
supposed to mean?

Thanks a lot!
Jose

 

[Lou Holtman]

Jose wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:52:06 +0100, Lou Holtman
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> If it hesitates to move
>> there is something serious wrong.
>
> I wouldn't say it hesitates; it just doesn't move inwards enough. It
> presses the chain, but it's only when I'm using the 3rd larger cog, or
> bigger, that it actually changes into the granny chainring.
>
> I tried to adjust the FD to move the chain inwards *past* the granny
> ring (and then work opposite from there to point where it would land
> on the granny ring) and simply couldn't achieve that misaglinement :-(
>
>
> It will work "acceptably" beside me in the garage, but not so well
> when I'm riding it outside ;-P
>
>
>> Lou; downswing, top pull.
>
> Say again? Does your FD cable go below the frame

No, on all my ATB's the cable come from above. Only my road bikes have
bottom pull and even there I never have any trouble reaching the inner
ring on my triple crankset unless of course it hits something like the
limit screw ;-)

Lou
and pulls the FD
> spring downwards - like mine - or does it pull the spring upwards??
>

 

[Ben C]

On 2008-03-08, Lou Holtman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jose wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 18:52:06 +0100, Lou Holtman
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> If it hesitates to move
>>> there is something serious wrong.
>>
>> I wouldn't say it hesitates; it just doesn't move inwards enough. It
>> presses the chain, but it's only when I'm using the 3rd larger cog, or
>> bigger, that it actually changes into the granny chainring.
>>
>> I tried to adjust the FD to move the chain inwards *past* the granny
>> ring (and then work opposite from there to point where it would land
>> on the granny ring) and simply couldn't achieve that misaglinement :-(
>>
>>
>> It will work "acceptably" beside me in the garage, but not so well
>> when I'm riding it outside ;-P
>>
>>
>>> Lou; downswing, top pull.
>>
>> Say again? Does your FD cable go below the frame
>
> No, on all my ATB's the cable come from above. Only my road bikes have
> bottom pull and even there I never have any trouble reaching the inner
> ring on my triple crankset unless of course it hits something like the
> limit screw ;-)

I get them sticking quite often with all the mud around in the winter.
I've developed a knack of just giving the FD a gentle inwards kick with
my heel without taking my feet off the pedals.

 

[Jose]

On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 20:58:58 GMT, [email protected] (Jose) wrote:

>I've bee reading specs of FDs, and admit I don't understand what's
>meant by "Chainstay angle 63 to 66 degrees", for instance?
>How does this difer to another one, for 66-69 degrees?

I already know what this is, but I'm sure what diference it makes...



>And in the same context, what is an "Applicable chain line of 50mm"
>supposed to mean?

Again, I now know what a chainline is, although I still don't what
would happen when:
a)fitting a FD as speced above to a bike with a larger chainline - I
haven't measured mine yet;
b) fitting a FD as speced above to a bike with a smaller chainline;
c) fitting a FD which has no spec at all about chainline.

Best,
Jose

 

[landotter]

On Mar 8, 12:04 pm, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

> Top pull front changers have their own problems; generally stiffer
> action to the outside and a different set of cable issues.

I'm new to top-pull, but it seems they provide a nice snappy shift to
granny under load--other than that, I find them ugly, and they clutter
the cluster, making mounting fenders a hassle. I'm assuming their
existence is some sort FS mtb clearance issue. Action to the outside
seems fine with RF shifters, might be a bit hard with GS.

 

[Hank]

On Mar 8, 9:29 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Andrew Muzi wrote:
> >>  [email protected] (Jose) wrote:
> >>> My FD is kind of weak/slow when it comes to downshift - from the
> >>> middle to the inner chainring, for instance.  It's one of the first
> >>> Shimano Deore models, from back when 9 speed was the newest thing in
> >>> the market.
>
> > Hank wrote:
> >> Not to nitpick, but the 9-speed ones are about the most recent Deore
> >> model. The first Deore FD was, what? 1982?
>
> > Yeah, Hank, about then - when touring bikes were 5 or 6 speed, not 9.
> > Nice product, though. Cute with the little reindeer logo and all.
>
> As in <http://www.firstflightbikes.com/Fder61.JPG>.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

That's the original Deore XT, which was introduced in 1983. Remember,
the Deore XT M770 group is the 25th anniversary edition! The Deore
came out earlier and had like a blue & teal square as its logo.