Surges in races/group rides + crit training

[DancenMacabre]

1 - Mass start races are highly variable, jumpy, jittery, and a little like QM. I can see this randomness even from riding with groups recently - comfortably low power in sections followed by huge surges in other segments. My problem - dealing with the surges.

To handle these types of surges where power goes way over FT, what would you suggest?

a - Non-isopower work (ala 15s on/15s off microintervals)
b - Dedicated L6 training for the surges
c - Dedicated L5 training for the 5-10 minute climbs
d - More L4 training to raise FT, it is an aerobic sport after all.

My guess so far is D (boost FT with more L4) and that being able to handle the surges, lots of them that is, is more an aerobic issue than anerobic - assuming I am able to generate the 1 & 5 minute power required to hang with the pack. I figure as one goes through AWC that the hard efforts rely even more on aerobic sources, hence boosting aerobic fitness bodes well.

Opinions on this?

2 - A related question from the above and speaking of crits more specifically - it looks to me that there is a different pattern here than in other types of rides. I looked up some of the Coggan studies for Quadrant Analysis and can see the pedal speed/force plots are quite different than in other rides (like 40k TT's, or trainer isopower stuff).

This is from Andrew Coggan's page where he shows a plot of a typical flat criterium. The obvious attention getter: tons of high velocity pedaling, some at high force, some at low force.

(Besides the obvious bike handling & tactics angles) what is key to crit training from a physiological/metabolic standpoint?

a - Riding/training sessions which mimick the QA diagram above (specificity)
b - Better aerobic base (power - raising FT)
c - both?
d - other?

Seems to me that yes a 45-50 minute crit is overwhelmingly an aerobic event. That makes a good case for building a better aerobic base. I have to think though that high force/high velocity pedalling is going to be way above threshold, which sounds like dedicated L5/L6/L7 work or L3/SST with a high VI & NP > AP.

Guess this is sort of a specificity or power question (or other) regarding crits.

Then again, I could have this totally wrong.

Thoughts?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Personally I go with answer 'c'

Building FTP is important even for bursty events like crits.

- For one, the higher you raise your sustainable power the less often you have to exceed FTP and the 'height' of the bursts isn't so 'high' in a relative sense. IOW, bursts to 500 watts on an FTP of 200 watts does more damage than those same 500 watt bursts on an FTP of 300 watts.

- Recovery and the ability to do repeated and frequent high level bursts is dictated by sustainable power (FTP). Regardless of what energy systems you draw on to handle those short repeated bursts the recovery periods are primarily aerobic. Get your FTP up above that of your competition and not only will you recover faster for repeated hard efforts but at times when other riders are still having to ride above their thresholds you'll be recovering.

- Your total effort in terms of both Average and Normalized power is bounded by your MMP for the duration of the race. So if you do a 45 minute crit neither your AP nor NP can be above your best 45 minute MMP. AP is rarely anywhere near that limit in a technical crit, but NP can easily push right up there if there are a lot of high power bursts so you want your 45 minute (or whatever durations you race) to be as high as possible to give you NP headroom.

But the microinterval work is key as well. It trains you to repeatedly recruit muscle groups and accelerate on demand but also trains you to recover while still working relatively hard.

Personally I don't introduce microinterval work till mid winter as it's mentally taxing and I don't believe it's necessary year round but folks differ on this and some folks do a lot of HOP style microinterval work during early winter base building.

All that said, you've told us you don't do much group riding and haven't raced before. Specific physiological training for crits is great and smart, but just learning to ride well in a group, conserve energy, draft effectively in varying wind conditions, take clean and fast lines through the corners, stay off your brakes, anticipate surges to avoid unnecessary high power efforts, and knowing when to launch that killer sprint of yours will do far more for your crit racing than perfect microinterval training.

Do the work this winter, but get out on group rides, attend race clinics if you can, try to find a good local club and get out to the early season races and expect to learn a lot.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[DancenMacabre]

Personally I go with answer 'c'

Building FTP is important even for bursty events like crits.

- For one, the higher you raise your sustainable power the less often you have to exceed FTP and the 'height' of the bursts isn't so 'high' in a relative sense. IOW, bursts to 500 watts on an FTP of 200 watts does more damage than those same 500 watt bursts on an FTP of 300 watts.

That makes a lot of sense. As hard as 167% of FT may be, I'll take my chances with that number instead of 200%+ of FT for a 'burst' or 'surge'.

- Recovery and the ability to do repeated and frequent high level bursts is dictated by sustainable power (FTP). Regardless of what energy systems you draw on to handle those short repeated bursts the recovery periods are primarily aerobic. Get your FTP up above that of your competition and not only will you recover faster for repeated hard efforts but at times when other riders are still having to ride above their thresholds you'll be recovering.

Great explanation and seems quite clear. This is consistent with the whole idea of it being 'an aerobic sport'.

- Your total effort in terms of both Average and Normalized power is bounded by your MMP for the duration of the race. So if you do a 45 minute crit neither your AP nor NP can be above your best 45 minute MMP. AP is rarely anywhere near that limit in a technical crit, but NP can easily push right up there if there are a lot of high power bursts so you want your 45 minute (or whatever durations you race) to be as high as possible to give you NP headroom.

Ok. Ok, this seems most logical - you can't surpass your 45 MMP regardless of whether you measure it in AP or NP. One thing though, most people (i know that i do) use FTP as their benchmark and usually this is computed via a) routine, not maximal, power for long (20-30) minute intervals b) monod/cp method, or c) 60 min TT. Now I have to guess that few of us are doing lots of standing efforts or sprint bursts in any of the above methods (a-c). In a crit I would expect you do many bursts and go out of the seat, using arms/hands/back, to boost power generation.

Therefore - can NP for a 45 minute crit actually exceed 45 MMP generated through more isopower/seated efforts? My guess is yes?

........knowing when to launch that killer sprint of yours will do far more for your crit racing than perfect microinterval training.

Killer sprint? you are a generous man dave, 13.5ish w/kg is my 5sec number

 

[otb4evr]

Personally I go with answer 'c'
...
Good luck,
-Dave

Great stuff, Dave.

I would just throw in a couple more things:

1. Build your CTL. The higher the level of fitness, the better your recovery after surges.
2. Hit the high end stuff, but ensure that your CTL is high enough that you can do the work necessary. If the efforts are not repeatable, step back into subThreshold and Threshold work for a couple more weeks.

Jim

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...Therefore - can NP for a 45 minute crit actually exceed 45 MMP generated through more isopower/seated efforts? My guess is yes?...

You're right and one theory on so called NP Buster's (rides of an hour with NP more than 5% above a well established FTP) is that they happen more often on courses with repeated short out of the saddle efforts like a crit course with short steep hills one or more times per lap. But even then it's unlikely you'll be able to sustain an NP much greater than your AP based MMP for the duration. But any way you look at it a higher MMP for the duration is in your best interest so don't neglect the FTP development even for races characterized by relatively low AP and frequent high power bursts.

If you're riding a flat crit well the out of saddle efforts should be limited, especially if you're using your gears well and carrying speed through the corners. Get stuck at the back behind a lot of folks, do a lot of excess braking, slug away in an overly large gear or fail to look up the road and anticipate surges and attacks and you'll spend more time out of the saddle which is pretty common in lower category crits.

-Dave

 

[tonyzackery]

If you're riding a flat crit well the out of saddle efforts should be limited, especially if you're using your gears well and carrying speed through the corners. Get stuck at the back behind a lot of folks, do a lot of excess braking, slug away in an overly large gear or fail to look up the road and anticipate surges and attacks and you'll spend more time out of the saddle which is pretty common in lower category crits.

-Dave

Dave is making good sense as always.

As a pretty damn good flat crit racer (if I say so myself), I've highlighted the MOST important aspects of what to avoid like the plague if you aspire to be a reasonably successful crit racer or maintain contact during a fast group ride. Getting stuck in the back (because you're not aerobically strong enough to stay up near the front, or sundry other reasons) and the resulting braking and sprinting out of corners to make up lost ground will kill your legs like nothing other. Think of each out-of-the-saddle effort to make contact being like an insidious nail in your coffin. Reach a certain number and your coffin gets lowered into the ground...

Train your aerobic fitness, definitely, but most importantly do everything humanly possible to STAY UP NEAR THE FRONT. Front 1/3 will suffice. The yo-yo that is a peloton can/will spit you out the back at the earliest opportunity, and I'm speaking with some personal experience here...

One more thing, L4 is my bread-and-butter base training, but working in some L6 1min. efforts ~1 month before you start racing would be very wise.

My $0.02CAN worth...

 

[frenchyge]

My problem - dealing with the surges.

To handle these types of surges where power goes way over FT, what would you suggest?

I fully agree with everything Dave said -- textbook answer, really.

Question #1: In the interest of giving another perspective, I'm going to suggest C for group riding surges (not crit related). The reason I suggest L5 work is that the purpose of the surging is to break the will of the other riders as much as weaken them physically. L5 intervals train the mind as well as the body to resist and persist through the pain, recover quickly, and repeat. They teach us exactly how much pain can be endured without a loss of performance and toughen us up more than L4 or SST work can.

Some riders are easier to break than their training numbers would lead one to believe, and it's because they lack the mental toughness to hang for the last 30-60 seconds in a surge. If that's a weakness for you, then I think some L5 work may payoff quicker than L4 work. It might be as quick as 1 week you're getting dropped, and the next week you're suddenly hanging on through the entire group ride. Eventually you're going to have to go back to FTP work though, to continue your gains (albeit with more confidence now...).

If none of that sounds like you, then just go with what Dave said.

 

[DancenMacabre]

Great stuff, Dave.

I would just throw in a couple more things:

1. Build your CTL. The higher the level of fitness, the better your recovery after surges.
2. Hit the high end stuff, but ensure that your CTL is high enough that you can do the work necessary. If the efforts are not repeatable, step back into subThreshold and Threshold work for a couple more weeks.

Jim

Thanks Jim for your post.

Agree with the CTL suggestion. By now I have read some of the really smart posters here say "FTP is how fast you go & CTL is how long you go fast".

I believe this and can see it for myself. Recently at the end of a 4 hour ride (if = .83) I was able to still do 20 minutes at FT. No way that happens when my CTL was lower.

I'm up to CTL of mid-70's and on pace to eventually get to 90 CTL in a few weeks (avg week = 650 TSS).

Dave is making good sense as always.

As a pretty damn good flat crit racer (if I say so myself), I've highlighted the MOST important aspects of what to avoid like the plague if you aspire to be a reasonably successful crit racer or maintain contact during a fast group ride. Getting stuck in the back (because you're not aerobically strong enough to stay up near the front, or sundry other reasons) and the resulting braking and sprinting out of corners to make up lost ground will kill your legs like nothing other. Think of each out-of-the-saddle effort to make contact being like an insidious nail in your coffin. Reach a certain number and your coffin gets lowered into the ground...

Train your aerobic fitness, definitely, but most importantly do everything humanly possible to STAY UP NEAR THE FRONT. Front 1/3 will suffice. The yo-yo that is a peloton can/will spit you out the back at the earliest opportunity, and I'm speaking with some personal experience here...

One more thing, L4 is my bread-and-butter base training, but working in some L6 1min. efforts ~1 month before you start racing would be very wise.

My $0.02CAN worth...

Tony - your $0.02 is most welcome.

I might have a similar profile in terms of what kind of rider I am: bigger, good bit more buff than average, and not a spindly whippet/climber type.

You say you are a pretty darn good flat crit racer? Well I wanna be get there and be an excellent crit racer too.

Group and handling skills are paramount as you say and I am seeing it now that I ride with others. Tons of wasted energy when you lose a wheel or let a gap open.

L4 is the core of your training, with a dash of L6 - sounds good - might I ask do you do any microinterval work or any similar training to prep for your crits as Dave and I were discussing?

P.S. - the nail in the coffin analogy is very vivid. That one will stick with me - conserve energy, stay up front, and save those out of the saddle efforts for race winning moves and/or final sprints.

 

[DancenMacabre]

I fully agree with everything Dave said -- textbook answer, really.

Question #1: In the interest of giving another perspective, I'm going to suggest C for group riding surges (not crit related). The reason I suggest L5 work is that the purpose of the surging is to break the will of the other riders as much as weaken them physically. L5 intervals train the mind as well as the body to resist and persist through the pain, recover quickly, and repeat. They teach us exactly how much pain can be endured without a loss of performance and toughen us up more than L4 or SST work can.

Some riders are easier to break than their training numbers would lead one to believe, and it's because they lack the mental toughness to hang for the last 30-60 seconds in a surge. If that's a weakness for you, then I think some L5 work may payoff quicker than L4 work. It might be as quick as 1 week you're getting dropped, and the next week you're suddenly hanging on through the entire group ride. Eventually you're going to have to go back to FTP work though, to continue your gains (albeit with more confidence now...).

If none of that sounds like you, then just go with what Dave said.

LOL @ if none sounds like you!!!

I think the big challenge with these group rides is that I had never done 4, 5, even 6 hours rides before. So you know, you are maybe 1.5 hours into it and come up on a hill - and you think, if I go hard now to keep up, will i have anything left....3 hours from now?

That has been happening and maybe I will improve my ability to gauge my aerobic fuel tank on these long rides, the more I do them.

Case in point: did a 5 hour (IF = .8) ride and still managed a steady 10+ minute effort at the end that was FT + 5 watts. Halfway through that ride I would not have done that, for fear of blowing up.

THink I will keep track of the 5 minute/60 minute (vo2max power/FTP power) ratio with regular testing and work on vo2max if/when vo2max <= 120% FTP

You're right and one theory on so called NP Buster's (rides of an hour with NP more than 5% above a well established FTP) is that they happen more often on courses with repeated short out of the saddle efforts like a crit course with short steep hills one or more times per lap. But even then it's unlikely you'll be able to sustain an NP much greater than your AP based MMP for the duration. But any way you look at it a higher MMP for the duration is in your best interest so don't neglect the FTP development even for races characterized by relatively low AP and frequent high power bursts.

If you're riding a flat crit well the out of saddle efforts should be limited, especially if you're using your gears well and carrying speed through the corners. Get stuck at the back behind a lot of folks, do a lot of excess braking, slug away in an overly large gear or fail to look up the road and anticipate surges and attacks and you'll spend more time out of the saddle which is pretty common in lower category crits.

-Dave

Excellent stuff Dave, thanks for sharing the details of how AP/NP/MMP can work in an event like a crit.

You and Tony have convinced me that many out of saddle efforts in a crit are a bad sign.

I am doing the group rides now like many of you have encouraged. Little by little, I know it is and will help. Early season races are now 2 months away so I have mucho work to do!

 

[frenchyge]

I think the big challenge with these group rides is that I had never done 4, 5, even 6 hours rides before.

Those are serious group rides. You're not kidding around.

 

[Alex Simmons]

To get better at crits, you also need to ride more crits. Group rides may or may not help.

Raise FTP, and work on anything specific to your target races/events.

One should also do neuromuscular power/sprint work for crits. Often an L5/6 effort is not required if you jump quickly enough to either get that wheel or negate the attack.

 

[Alex Simmons]

You and Tony have convinced me that many out of saddle efforts in a crit are a bad sign.

That depends a lot on the type of course you are riding.
viz this sort of crit, where lots of out of saddle effort was necessary:

 

[Fightin Boba]

To handle these types of surges where power goes way over FT, what would you suggest?

a - Non-isopower work (ala 15s on/15s off microintervals)
b - Dedicated L6 training for the surges
c - Dedicated L5 training for the 5-10 minute climbs
d - More L4 training to raise FT, it is an aerobic sport after all.

(Besides the obvious bike handling & tactics angles) what is key to crit training from a physiological/metabolic standpoint?

a - Riding/training sessions which mimick the QA diagram above (specificity)
b - Better aerobic base (power - raising FT)
c - both?
d - other?

This is sorta like asking 'which trumps - raising FTP or specificity?'. For crits (and most other road bike racing), they go hand in hand, come race day. Of course, the key is how mix the two in the weeks and months prior (periodization of composition).

The answers on this thread have been spot on. Keep in mind that raising FTP may involve more than just 'all L4, all the time'. Similarly, specificity (for a crit) is more than hitting L5, L6, and L7 from a physiologic perspective, but also includes QA specificity from the neuromuscular perspective, and actually racing crits from the mental/tactical perspective.

Having said that, I'll throw in one more training tool that I employed last season with some success: motopacing. Our local Tuesday night crit series was not offered last season, and I needed some crit experience going into our district championships, given that most of my training had gone towards TT. I had the opportunity to use a local pro's motopace guy and found that I could replicate crit-specific training quite well. Not something that is readily available, but certainly can be specific in the absence of actual crits (and much safer than actual crits, I might add).

 

[lanierb]

All good answers so far. I would only add one thing, and that is that right now, it being November, I would emphasize d with some odd c in there and no b. Later on, when you get closer to real riding you can add more c and even b.

 

[DancenMacabre]

Those are serious group rides. You're not kidding around.

For you and the other ultra fit riders here, I'm sure these rides I've been on would be epic..............(recovery)....rides

To get better at crits, you also need to ride more crits. Group rides may or may not help.

Raise FTP, and work on anything specific to your target races/events.

One should also do neuromuscular power/sprint work for crits. Often an L5/6 effort is not required if you jump quickly enough to either get that wheel or negate the attack.

Alex - I read your comment 'to get better at A, you must do A', as specificity and practice/repetition.

You mention one should do L7/sprint work for crits. This makes sense. My newbie hunch is that the best tools for 'getting into the final bunch sprint' are raising FTP and having deft bike skills and spot on tactics.
Now assuming you get to the final sprint - what is the best training to win it?

I ask because again I am thinking of the specificity/power paradigm.
-Specificity - crit sprints taking place after 45 minutes of very hard riding and might last 15-30 seconds. training would mimic this by doing longer sprints after some hard riding.
-Power - training would focus on improving 5s power (jump) and take place while still relatively fresh.

So if you are at liberty to say - which methods work best for crit/road type sprints?

1 - standing starts (Andrew Coggan says several days/week * 6 weeks improved 5 second power in his track cycling slideshow).
2 - Build the speed up to 40km/h (for me, meaning getting deep into L6 first) and then sprint. Kind of a pre-fatigue sprint.
3 - Using a downhill, strong tailwind (or some other 'free speed' aid) to easily get up to 36+ km/h, then max sprint for 10 seconds. no pre-fatigue here and full (5+ minute) recovery after.
4 - other? combination?

My hunch is one must first train to get 'fast' via short, maximal (<< 10 second) bursts. Then later extend the sprints as peak power improves. Otherwise one trains to go long, but slow?

Pre-fatigue sprints sound specific but perhaps do not train the right systems? From what I read the energy systems work in a continuum and if one is trying to train their sprint immediately after 30s of hard L6 (used to get up to 40km/h or more), then wouldn't that suggest that the fast twitch fibers used for sprinting are already fatigued and thus will not obtain positive adaptations?

Standing starts sound interesting but not especially specific or relevant to road races. So my guess is there would not be employed (unless one is doing track cycling such as kilo/200m).

 

[tonyzackery]

That depends a lot on the type of course you are riding.
viz this sort of crit, where lots of out of saddle effort was necessary:

That's a pretty nasty course - with that nice little hill and all; and a damn hard race considering the duration.

My weekly Tuesday night crit course has a somewhat similar profile but the hill is more gradual such that I don't have to get out of the saddle unless there is a really hard surge or prime. Usually it's 8.5-9w/kg (750-800w for me being a heavy guy and all) for about 30secs, then a short flat stretch and then downhill for about 20 secs.

Needless to say, I don't fare so well in the finale as I do on my Thursday night crit which is totally flat. Tuesday has an uphill finish and my relative power at the end puts me in the middle of the pack. Thursday's flat finish has me in the top 3 almost every week.

 

[tonyzackery]

Tony - your $0.02 is most welcome.

I might have a similar profile in terms of what kind of rider I am: bigger, good bit more buff than average, and not a spindly whippet/climber type.

You say you are a pretty darn good flat crit racer? Well I wanna be get there and be an excellent crit racer too.

Group and handling skills are paramount as you say and I am seeing it now that I ride with others. Tons of wasted energy when you lose a wheel or let a gap open.

L4 is the core of your training, with a dash of L6 - sounds good - might I ask do you do any microinterval work or any similar training to prep for your crits as Dave and I were discussing?

P.S. - the nail in the coffin analogy is very vivid. That one will stick with me - conserve energy, stay up front, and save those out of the saddle efforts for race winning moves and/or final sprints.

I've done some Tabata intervals in the past, but I've found just doing L6 1min. intervals (with limited recovery between reps) covers all the bases for the crits I compete in. Maybe if my crits were more technical I would do more micro-intervals as the techy crits require that aggressive acceleration out of the corners regardless if you're in the front or back. The crits around here are a little more sedate.

L5 work, as mentioned by others, is also a major component of my training - although regulars to this forum know how much I just LOVE doing L5 intervals; well with ibuprofen anyway...

Good luck (not really luck, but you know what I mean) with your training...

 

[Alex Simmons]

For you and the other ultra fit riders here, I'm sure these rides I've been on would be epic..............(recovery)....rides




Alex - I read your comment 'to get better at A, you must do A', as specificity and practice/repetition.

You mention one should do L7/sprint work for crits. This makes sense. My newbie hunch is that the best tools for 'getting into the final bunch sprint' are raising FTP and having deft bike skills and spot on tactics.
Now assuming you get to the final sprint - what is the best training to win it?

I ask because again I am thinking of the specificity/power paradigm.
-Specificity - crit sprints taking place after 45 minutes of very hard riding and might last 15-30 seconds. training would mimic this by doing longer sprints after some hard riding.
-Power - training would focus on improving 5s power (jump) and take place while still relatively fresh.

So if you are at liberty to say - which methods work best for crit/road type sprints?

1 - standing starts (Andrew Coggan says several days/week * 6 weeks improved 5 second power in his track cycling slideshow).
2 - Build the speed up to 40km/h (for me, meaning getting deep into L6 first) and then sprint. Kind of a pre-fatigue sprint.
3 - Using a downhill, strong tailwind (or some other 'free speed' aid) to easily get up to 36+ km/h, then max sprint for 10 seconds. no pre-fatigue here and full (5+ minute) recovery after.
4 - other? combination?

My hunch is one must first train to get 'fast' via short, maximal (<< 10 second) bursts. Then later extend the sprints as peak power improves. Otherwise one trains to go long, but slow?

Pre-fatigue sprints sound specific but perhaps do not train the right systems? From what I read the energy systems work in a continuum and if one is trying to train their sprint immediately after 30s of hard L6 (used to get up to 40km/h or more), then wouldn't that suggest that the fast twitch fibers used for sprinting are already fatigued and thus will not obtain positive adaptations?

Standing starts sound interesting but not especially specific or relevant to road races. So my guess is there would not be employed (unless one is doing track cycling such as kilo/200m).

Yes.

Don't discount standing starts although I never like doing them on a road bike.

And remember, you don't need to be the fastest/smartest sprinter of the bunch, just the fastest/smartest in your break-away group

 

[DancenMacabre]

Yes.

Don't discount standing starts although I never like doing them on a road bike.

And remember, you don't need to be the fastest/smartest sprinter of the bunch, just the fastest/smartest in your break-away group

Ok. Tried to be a good grasshopper and follow up with some more research.

Here's what I found, from Alex himself:

Just quickly for now.

**** snip snip ****
Do all types as Dave mentioned. Standing starts are great - they have a tremendous benefits, especially helping to manage pack surges.

Invaluable for crit riders.

Sounds from what Coach Alex said there, a few years ago it seems, is that I best make standing starts a big part of my sprint training for crits! Though he says 'do all as Dave suggests'.

I tend to group neuromuscular work in to three general categories:

* NM Strength- Peak strength building which implies low speed, high force. IOW, standing starts. Not a lot of direct application to general road racing unless you're seriously strength limited which is pretty unusual for a healthy rider. But if you're riding kilos or pursuits or very short prologue type time trials(but more so in a fixed gear) these are pretty important.
* NM Speed- IOW, classic sprint workouts. Typically done from a moderate to high starting speed and focused on top speed and aceleration to the line. Good stuff for a roadie or crit racer and something most of us should work on since an awful lot of mass start events end in a sprint. There are lots of variations on these(uphill, flat, with a lead out, etc.) but they should emphasize quick aceleration and top speed over strength.
* NM, snap or neuro acelerations, microintervals and other workouts intended to develop your ability to quickly recruit muscle groups on demand for quick repetitive submaximal acelerations. IOW, getting used to jumping out of crit corners and responding to or launching repeated attacks. It's still NM work, but with more emphasis on the neuro side of things and less on the pure muscular.

-Dave

Dave explains the different types of sprint focus very concisely here.

One thing I am unclear on though. I found some posts from Dr. Andrew Coggan where he more or less says skills are best practiced as a whole - not piecemeal. Kind of like the best way to learn to serve in tennis isn't by practicing tossing the ball by itself or footwork, but by doing the whole thing at once.

So if I understand that right, it would mean you practice sprinting in the situations you will race in (kind of specificity) rather than breaking it down in parts (like strength, speed, repeatability).

Maybe I have misunderstood Dr. Coggan (or Alex or Dave or all )

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...Maybe I have misunderstood Dr. Coggan (or Alex or Dave or all )

Well, I can't speak for Andy or Alex, but in terms of the stuff I posted I'd say all three of those are valuable skills and each is a complete skill that should be practiced in a sport specific way.

IOW, I can't think of a good way to do a standing start/peak speed sprint/repeatability acceleration drill. The standing starts and peak speed race sprints should be done with full focus and near complete recovery between individual efforts. The repeatability NM acceleration work is best done in a complete and sport specific way such as Bill Black's Hour of Power work or other sustained microinterval efforts that emphasize repeated high power bursts and recovery at race pace.

I guess I don't see a contradiction between the varying types of NM work and specificity as opposed to someone urging weight room work for the low velocity high force work, plyometrics for the acceleration aspects or maybe one legged uphill cycling drills to build leg strength.

Maybe I don't understand your confusion, but identifying a few varieties of bike specific NM work doesn't mean they're overly broken down and don't represent the fully integrated skill. It's just that NM work isn't expressed in just one way for all bike racing situations.

BTW, I don't even remember posting that thread or having those thoughts, but I agree with them and was probably steered towards those thoughts by someone else. There's that regurgitating info thing again

-Dave