The relationship of 5 min power to FT
- Thread starter objective
- Start date
WarrenG said:
But we're not talking about winning or losing by tenth's or hundredth's of a second, we're talking about the difference between riding a 35 s or a 40 s 500 m (e.g., Becky Conzelman vs. Angie Vargas), or a 68 s vs. a 78 s kilometer (e.g., any decent master track vs. me). In both cases, average power (in W/kg) is comparable, but being able to generate a high peak power coming off the line is critical (obviously).
acoggan said:
Nope. There is no one factor that determines success in the event, nor should predictions for success be made based on just one factor.
The original poster had very high numbers for 5s and 1m power, so unless he's very small (relatively low absolute power) he'd probably do well in the kilo.
WarrenG said:
Non-sequitur: nobody ever said that only one factor determined success, or that predictions should be based upon only one factor. The issue at hand, and the only issue at hand, is whether performance is more closely related to absolute power, or to power/mass. You've claimed the former (although in your recent post you seem to have changed tunes?), when in fact it is really the latter (which is why, e.g., Anna Meares would kick your a** in a 500 m
).WarrenG said:
His neuromuscular power is decent, but I don't think it is really all that exceptional...many masters racers can top 20 W/kg for 5 s. As for his 1 min power, it's actually lower than mine...
acoggan said:
"We are talking about" what? I think you're distracted by this one, extreme example, and 5s in a 500mTT or 10s in a kilo is very extreme. And btw, I've seen some really big, strong guys ride poor kilos because of what happened after they got up to speed.
Look closer at what lots of people do when trying to change their times by a half second to 1.5 seconds when they're already at least somewhat close to their potential. For some, it will be neuromuscular power. For others it will be their ability over the last third or so of the event.
In your case, you are extremely weak, but very good aerobically. Increasing neuromuscular ability would be an area where you could focus to make the largest improvement, at least intitially. For myself, I'm not weak, so the most likely way for me to improve my kilo time would be things unrelated (directly) to neuromuscular power.
So, what training do you think I'm using to go from being the starter for team sprint (in most of my previous rides) to being the second lap rider for this year?
WarrenG said:
Jim Martin, for one (and he doesn't even train or race anymore). There were also three or four road cyclists in this study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=10843350&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum
who would qualify as masters and who topped the 20 W/kg benchmark.
WarrenG said:
Once again you illustrate your apparent ignorance of quantitative matters, such as correlation, prediction, etc. To wit: when multiple variables are involved, you need a large range in X values (e.g., power, in W/kg) to detect the relationship of X to Y (e.g., performance). The inability to detect such a relationship over a more restricted range is in no way evidence that it does not exist.
acoggan said:Non-sequitur: nobody ever said that only one factor determined success, or that predictions should be based upon only one factor. The issue at hand, and the only issue at hand, is whether performance is more closely related to absolute power, or to power/mass. You've claimed the former (although in your recent post you seem to have changed tunes?), when in fact it is really the latter (which is why, e.g., Anna Meares would kick your a** in a 500 m
Again, you have used an extreme difference in size to make support your opinion.
Your mis-characterizations of my opinion are silly in light of the fact that I'm around good (masters nat's winners and podium) kilo/500mTT riders every week. We exchange ideas and information about what matters most and measure it the best way possible, with a stopwatch and sometimes a speedometer. The stuff you're going on about is of some use, moreso initially, but it's of minor importance to those of us that are seeking to improve our abilities for track races. No medals are awarded for the best watts/kg.
acoggan said:
Your inability to apply what you've read somewhere about very small samples of riders, to the real world application for various individuals and their needs and abilities really does border on humorous sometimes. When you go on like this you inspire smiles and head-shaking among the riders who already know what's real. It detracts from your credibility and is a distraction from what you actually do know.
If you really want to be involved in helping track riders you owe it to them and to yourself to spend much more time out in the real world learning from others. Spend a few hundred hours at various tracks LISTENING to dozens of riders. It is obvious that your understanding would benefit from this experience. If you could add some significant real-world learning experience to your physiology background you could be far more helpful than you are now.
I went right to my limit the first time up the finish hill at Wente. My friends told me it was about the same the next two times up. My limit is higher now, but still, dang.objective said:
At Pescadero, the first two little climbs take about three minutes IIRC, and the big climb only about eight minutes, you may be able to get by if you can resort to your vo2max, and just think about what you can do with that, and don't do any work you don't have to do. Also, it's conceivable you could catch back on after each of the significant climbs, a lot of times nobody wants to do any work on the flat stretches.
Even though we are only cat 4's, it seems like some of the road races in particular demand a lot more time at FTP for me than I was training at earlier this year ~40 to 44 @L4 minutes so I've been trying to push that up to 60 minutes, but the next road races I plan to do are in August.
WarrenG said:
What, you think Jim is an exception? Yeah, he won master nationals as a match sprinter, but he had to come through the repechage to do it. IOW, while he is (or was) a decent sprinter, his power isn't (or wasn't) head-and-shoulders above everybody else.
Here's another way to think of it: for a young man, a power of = or >22 W/kg for 5 s would make you competitive at the international level as a match sprinter (all else, e.g., tactical ability) being equal. Note that that would only make you competitive, not have you on the podium. Now consider that neuromuscular power falls about 5% per decade, starting at about age 30 (per Jim's study)...how long would it take for such an individual to fall below the 20 W/kg value that I mentioned? The answer, of course, is that it would take nearly 20 y. IOW, somebody who is merely competitive at the international level when they are young could still generate 20 W/kg at age 50. Thus, for somebody 40+ to do it isn't all that exceptional.
WarrenG said:
Oh, so you can tell somebody's neuromuscular power just from watching them, can you?
acoggan said:
Way back then, 1988, the rules encouraged success for a rider with a quick jump (high watts/kg). The lead rider was allowed to block the following rider from passing during virtually any point in the race. Hold your opponent against the wall, and then jump hard at 200m to go. Best jump wins. Now, that limited ability won't get you to the top 3 in most age groups because the sprints are generally longer and the jump is far less important. This is easy to see in world-class elite races too.
acoggan said:Here's another way to think of it: for a young man, a power of = or >22 W/kg for 5 s would make you competitive at the international level as a match sprinter (all else, e.g., tactical ability) being equal. Note that that would only make you competitive, not have you on the podium. Now consider that neuromuscular power falls about 5% per decade, starting at about age 30 (per Jim's study)...how long would it take for such an individual to fall below the 20 W/kg value that I mentioned? The answer, of course, is that it would take nearly 20 y. IOW, somebody who is merely competitive at the international level when they are young could still generate 20 W/kg at age 50. Thus, for somebody 40+ to do it isn't all that exceptional.
Oh, so you can tell somebody's neuromuscular power just from watching them, can you?
Your little story is just your own meaningless entertainment that is contrary to the real world.
I know what my 5s watts/kg is, and I know how it compares to many other riders from racing and training with them, and how other riders compare to them. I can easily make a list of masters nat's and world champions who can not do what you think "many" can. I have much more exposure to masters sprinters than you and I can only think of one rider who might be able to do what you claim is done by many.
Now, instead of another one of your stories, let's see the list of "many" masters riders who are doing 20w/kg for 5s. You don't even have to mention their names. Just list their placings at masters nat's and/or worlds.
And since you mentioned it, Gil Hatton was a junior world champion in match sprint and now he's 50 years old-just like your example. Tell us how many watts/kg he does for 5s. And remember, I rode with him last year at Nat's and I've seen his jump up close. And so did someone else I know-someone whose 5s watts/kg is also known to me. The real world...
Woofer said:
This late in the season I've seen bigger increases in my FTP due to additional VO2max intervals. Varying the stimulus. Maybe this approach would help you more than just adding additional time to your L4 intervals. Or, keep your L4 training the same but race at the track every Friday night. Lots of VO2max there...
WarrenG said:
Yet ironically, Jim's favor tactic was the razor...
WarrenG said:
Ah, so that is what this is about: you can't achieve Jim's benchmark of 20 W/kg, so therefore nobody else must be able to...
WarrenG said:
Wait a second...you've previously said that very few elite masters racers use powermeters, instead simply relying on time (speed). So, how do you know how much power these guys are producing? (Answer: you don't.)
WarrenG said:
We're getting to that...but first:
WarrenG said:
Yeah, I remember when he won...I was still in high school. Come to think of it, didn't I see his bike on display at the ADT Event Center? You know, the one with the block chain, wooden rims, leather saddle, etc.?
WarrenG said:
W/o any direct measurements, I really have no idea.
WarrenG said:
So tell me: how does Gibby's jump compare to that of, oh, say, Rich Voss?
Pul-lease. I know there are plenty of people who can do more power than me for any duration. I also know that a 5s benchmark is not very important for match sprints because that ability is such a small component for success. My power numbers compared to someone else are merely entertainment because the race performance is what matters. Placings and times.acoggan said:
It's not hard to get a good estimate based on my own power numbers and doing jumps and sprints with them. That you can't make this connection speaks to your lack of real-world understanding. Rich and I have exchanged some numbers, but any comparisons don't mean much to either of us. Just two friends encouraging and helping each other.acoggan said:
Last year they were very close to equal. Gil's bike handling skills effectively adds just a bit of speed to his jump,, but that's not power.acoggan said:
So, where's your list of "many" masters who are doing 20w/kg? And where's your pronouncement that Gil's 5s power is at least 20w/kg? After all, he was once a World Champion as a junior, masters world record holder for 200m, and masters World Champion several times. He fits your story's description and yet, your opinion/estimate/prediction about his 5s power is quite wrong.
C'mon Andy, since you obviously have no real-world experience to support your opinion, "show us your data".
WarrenG said:
No, it reflects that fact that my 5 s power is so much lower than everybody else seems unbelievably quick by comparison.
WarrenG said:
Really? Yet you don't realize that he can top 20 W/kg for 5 s? So much for your ability to judge somebody's power based on just their jump, much less actual data!
WarrenG said:
...which would mean that Hatton - who is, as you pointed out, 50+ - can also generate the same 20 W/kg that Rich can.
WarrenG said:
Jim Martin, Rich Voss, Gil Hatton (by inference), three or four road racers whose data are shown in Jim's paper...and that's without even attempting to collect such data!
WarrenG said:
See above (albeit only by deduction)
acoggan said:
You are wrong about all of the above except whatever data you might have from Jim's study.
That you can't make a connection between one rider's known power to another rider they are racing against is due to your lack of real-world understanding.
