The relationship of 5 min power to FT

[NM87710]

FWIW, my real world facts

44, cat2, 60kg, non-trackie(their's more to racing than turning left )

5s 17.9w/kg and I routinely get spanked by other masters racers in sprints - not due to tactics or postioning - just pure power. IMO 20 w/kg for masters is pretty common in my competitive circle.

 

[acoggan]

You are wrong about all of the above except whatever data you might have from Jim's study.

So you're calling Rich Voss a liar? He told me at the USAC power-based training seminar in Florida that his 5 s power was >20 W/kg.

In any case, if 20 W/kg is so unbelievably high, even for an elite masters track cyclist, how do you explain the masters-aged road cyclists in Jim's study who were able to achieve this standard?

 

[Billsworld]

FWIW, my real world facts

44, cat2, 60kg, non-trackie(their's more to racing than turning left )

5s 17.9w/kg and I routinely get spanked by other masters racers in sprints - not due to tactics or postioning - just pure power. IMO 20 w/kg for masters is pretty common in my competitive circle.

Thats my 5 sec power too @ 44 and current 87kg. My guess is your getting spanked on a flat or track.? They would likely dread climbing with you. What is "spanked"? a wheel, a Bike?

 

[WarrenG]

FWIW, my real world facts

44, cat2, 60kg, non-trackie(their's more to racing than turning left )

5s 17.9w/kg and I routinely get spanked by other masters racers in sprints - not due to tactics or postioning - just pure power. IMO 20 w/kg for masters is pretty common in my competitive circle.

The problem with looking at w/kg and 5s power... My 5s is near yours and I've won Nat's.

 

[WarrenG]

So you're calling Rich Voss a liar? He told me at the USAC power-based training seminar in Florida that his 5 s power was >20 W/kg.

In any case, if 20 W/kg is so unbelievably high, even for an elite masters track cyclist, how do you explain the masters-aged road cyclists in Jim's study who were able to achieve this standard?

Rich and I discussed our respective 5s power less than 2 weeks ago. I'm not going to comment further on his numbers or abilities beyond what is widely known already. If you want to think that he's over 20w/kg that's fine. If you want to think that Gil is too that's also fine. These two riders have among the best jumps of any sprinters I've seen over 45 years old at Nat's and Worlds, and that includes a lot of fast guys. If there were "many" who could do this we'd see more riders on the track with jumps similar to, or better than Rich and Gil's.

Regarding smallish guys who can do 20w/kg but aren't great at sprinting...this is just more evidence of why 5s w/kg is mostly irrelevant for sprinters, especially for smaller riders, because the racing results show that their absolute power is an important reason they're getting beat, example in above post.

 

[acoggan]

Rich and I discussed our respective 5s power less than 2 weeks ago. I'm not going to comment further on his numbers or abilities beyond what is widely known already. If you want to think that he's over 20w/kg that's fine.

I'm just going by what he told me - are you calling him a liar?

 

[WarrenG]

I'm just going by what he told me - are you calling him a liar?

I have seen many times where you have misinterpreted or mis-represented a person's specific statement in a way that suits your own pre-conceived notions. There are things Rich has shared with me about his power and training with power last year and just recently, in fact I supported his decision to attend one of your seminars, but what we share in confidence stays there.

If you want to make wide-ranging statements based on extremely limited data (3-4 subjects in Jim's study and what you may have heard from a few riders...) then you should accept the fact that you may be mislead about a population based on a tiny sample. Experience in the real world can show this to you.

 

[acoggan]

I have seen many times where you have misinterpreted or mis-represented a person's specific statement in a way that suits your own pre-conceived notions.

So IOW, either you're calling him a liar, or you know that his 5 s power is indeed >20 W/kg, but you're not willing to admit it.

If you want to make wide-ranging statements based on extremely limited data (3-4 subjects in Jim's study

Those three or four* road cyclists represent ~10% of all the 30-50 y old individuals that Jim tested. Guys who ride the track will of course tend to have higher neuromuscular, and there are plenty of masters cyclists who ride the track (esp. when you think globally, as is appropriate for a forum such as this one), so..."many".

*The reason I say three or four is that one of them is right on the cusp of 20 W/kg, and w/o printing out the graph and putting a ruler on it, I can't be sure if they're above or below that value.

 

[acoggan]

BTW, here's another masters-aged rider who I'm betting can top 20 W/kg for 5 s:

http://www.robertlindstrom.com/home.php

 

[WarrenG]

So IOW, either you're calling him a liar, or you know that his 5 s power is indeed >20 W/kg, but you're not willing to admit it.

You have been mistaken in the past about what you think you have heard or read. I have Rich's number in my email. But feel free to assume what you like. It's merely a distraction for yourself and others who believe you. The races will show this. The unfortunate part is that some people do follow your assumptions about things like this, and that distraction detracts from their performances until they realize the errors of your opinions and assumptions.

Those three or four* road cyclists represent ~10% of all the 30-50 y old individuals that Jim tested. Guys who ride the track will of course tend to have higher neuromuscular, and there are plenty of masters cyclists who ride the track (esp. when you think globally, as is appropriate for a forum such as this one), so..."many".

Spend more time out in the real world before you publicize your assumptions about it. This will be a relevant issue for you. Are those bridges still burning?

 

[WarrenG]

BTW, here's another masters-aged rider who I'm betting can top 20 W/kg for 5 s:

http://www.robertlindstrom.com/home.php

There are what, 20,000 masters age racers in the US alone. What number is "many" for that population?

 

[acoggan]

You have been mistaken in the past about what you think you have heard or read.

Rich and I had a one-on-one conversation about his 5 s power during one of the breaks at the seminar in Florida. I remember it quite clearly because 1) it resulted from some joking during the Q-and-A session that had just ended, and 2) 20 W/kg is of significance because Jim has suggested that it is the sprinter's equivalent of having a VO2max of 70 mL/min/kg if you're an endurance athlete (i.e., it's a nice, round number that's high enough to be good for "bragging rights"). So, if Rich now says that he can't hit 20 W/kg for that long, then he misled me, he's misleading you, or his neuromuscular power has dropped recently.

Are those bridges still burning?

Do you mean the bridge that had Dave Martin of the AIS finding time in his busy schedule to get a quick run-down on the Training Manager in my room at the Sheraton? Or do you mean the other one, that had Stefan of SRM inviting me to a party at Uli's house (which, unfortunately, I couldn't make)?

 

[acoggan]

There are what, 20,000 masters age racers in the US alone. What number is "many" for that population?

If you assume that Jim's data are a representative sample of the population, then about 2000.

 

[WarrenG]

If you assume that Jim's data are a representative sample of the population, then about 2000.

I would not make a ridiculous assumption like that, mostly because I have already done over the last few years, most of what I'll describe below.

Since you won't believe me, ask Rich and Gil how many riders they think have a jump similar to, or better than theirs when they were/are able to do 5s 20w/kg. After Masters Nat's, ask Billsworld what he thinks about how his 18-19w/kg jump compares to the riders he saw at Nat's, and how many he thinks have a jump with 10% more power than him.

Go to track nat's in COS and/or the track World Championships in Manchester, stand in the infield during the sprints and 200mTT's, observe a couple hundred of the fastest masters riders in the US and/or the world, and note the ones you think might be able to do 20w/kg for 5s. Then go ask them. And try not to be too disappointed when you hear how many don't even bother with a PM. Also ask them how their 5s power (jump) compares to the riders they race with who are not at nat's.

Then compare your observations of 5s jumps against those of the riders who claim to do at least 5s 20w/kg based on their PM, or even 5s 18w/kg. And among all those sprinters, you come back and let us know if you found 200 (that would be just 1%) who can end up on your list of "many" masters who can do 20w/kg.

Not only will you be able to get some real-world "data" to support whatever opinion you may come up with, you'll also get to observe first-hand the relative lack of importance of 5s power during match sprints or most any other sprint during races.

And while you're there, observe the top 3-placing riders in each age group and try to see how many follow your opinion about the sprinter's power profile that believes that sprint power is only 25-50% of peak power at the finish line. That is still your opinion isn't it?

And since you'll be close to Utah you can hop on over to visit Jim and his new neighbors. http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=2476135

 

[Billsworld]

If you assume that Jim's data are a representative sample of the population, then about 2000.

AC, When I use the tools on analyticalcycling, its the frontal area not the kgs that are the killer. In using the watts per kg formula the frontal area must be assumed to be in a range? BTW , with 1 min power that high, what type of races do you focus on? The Anna Mears crack is a low blow Warren you mean after I get done chasing your rear wheel. The 20watts for 5 secs does seem kind of high for the times posted. IOW Maybe the WR and Nats records not the norm

 

[acoggan]

I would not make a ridiculous assumption like that

I didn't say that you should, only that's the number you'd come up with if you did.

Since you won't believe me, ask Rich and Gil how many riders they think have a jump similar to, or better than theirs when they were/are able to do 5s 20w/kg. After Masters Nat's, ask Billsworld what he thinks about how his 18-19w/kg jump compares to the riders he saw at Nat's, and how many he thinks have a jump with 10% more power than him.

I already asked Rich, and he told me that he could generate at least 20 W/kg for 5 s. As for anyone else, why should I trust their eyeball estimates any more than I trust yours (which I obviously don't)?

Go to track nat's in COS and/or the track World Championships in Manchester, stand in the infield during the sprints and 200mTT's, observe a couple hundred of the fastest masters riders in the US and/or the world, and note the ones you think might be able to do 20w/kg for 5s. Then go ask them. And try not to be too disappointed when you hear how many don't even bother with a PM.

Thank you for making my point for me...

BTW, Warren, you do realize that quite often NON-cyclists (e.g., basketball players, volleyball players) will have as high, if not higher, neuromuscular power than do cyclists? IOW, to be able to generate 20 W/kg really isn't all that impressive, in that it doesn't require a lot of specialized training to do it...just big enough legs and enough fast twitch fibers.

since you'll be close to Utah you can hop on over to visit Jim and his new neighbors. http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=2476135

I've been meaning to ask you about that...were Heiden and Testa pushed, or did they jump? I heard a rumor back in January of 2005 that at least Testa was looking to leave (for another California school), due to the inability to generate enough clinical income for the medical school doing what he does to satisfy expectations (which is understandable: you can charge a lot more for a cardiac catheterization procedure than a VO2max test).

Perhaps more importantly, does this mean that you, too, are going to be moving to Utah?

 

[acoggan]

AC, When I use the tools on analyticalcycling, its the frontal area not the kgs that are the killer.

But frontal area correlates with height, which in turn correlates with weight. Hence, W/kg is a better predictor of speed than W even on a flat road at constant velocity.

In using the watts per kg formula the frontal area must be assumed to be in a range?

There are both published and unpublished formulae that allow you to predict frontal area based on height and weight, but there's enough variability that they're really only of limited value (for an individual). Moreover, frontal area is only half of the story: there's also the coefficient of drag, Cd, which can also varies between individuals and between positions.

BTW , with 1 min power that high, what type of races do you focus on?

In fact, my 1 min power really isn't all that high, so I like to focus on races where aerobic ability (i.e., VO2max and LT) is key, i.e., road races and TTs.

 

[WarrenG]

AC, When I use the tools on analyticalcycling, its the frontal area not the kgs that are the killer. In using the watts per kg formula the frontal area must be assumed to be in a range? BTW , with 1 min power that high, what type of races do you focus on? The Anna Mears crack is a low blow Warren you mean after I get done chasing your rear wheel. The 20watts for 5 secs does seem kind of high for the times posted. IOW Maybe the WR and Nats records not the norm

I've noticed that too about the frontal area. Absolute power overrides watts/kg pretty quickly after an acceleration starts. All the big guys winning kilos also have the highest w/kg for 1 minute?

Check out the aerodynamics of Japanese keirin riders. Chin near the stem. Try analyticcycling.com with just a small change in aerodynamics to see sprint speeds go up at a given power. Far more important than w/kg.

20w/kg for 5s is high, above 40 years old. Even when Rich and Gil had their best jumps in recent years (2+ years ago) they were among a small handful with jumps that good in their age group, which includes thousands of riders within the US, and thousands more in the world-they each won world sprint championships for their age group.

The world record holder for the 40-44 200mTT races here in NorCal. He's one of only a handful of over 40 year-old guys I've raced with that out jump me by enough to account for the difference between my own 5s w/kg and 5s 20w/kg, IF one believes that w/kg is the reason one rider jumps better than another...

Starting at 27mph, if I jump at 5s 18w/kg alongside another rider who gains 7 feet on me over a distance of 200 feet, what is their 5s w/kg?

 

[WarrenG]

I already asked Rich, and he told me that he could generate at least 20 W/kg for 5 s. As for anyone else, why should I trust their eyeball estimates any more than I trust yours (which I obviously don't)?

It is quite simple. You watch a rider with a known amount of power as they accelerate alongside a rider of unknown power. You could learn alot by observing many top-level riders doing this.

I've been meaning to ask you about that...were Heiden and Testa pushed, or did they jump? I heard a rumor back in January of 2005 that at least Testa was looking to leave (for another California school), due to the inability to generate enough clinical income for the medical school doing what he does to satisfy expectations (which is understandable: you can charge a lot more for a cardiac catheterization procedure than a VO2max test).

Perhaps more importantly, does this mean that you, too, are going to be moving to Utah?

Your "rumor" is inaccurate. The university/UC Davis Med Center is/was quite happy with what Max brings to them. The issue is more about what Max wants to do, and the representatives of various org's have been chasing him for 3+ years with some nice offers to let him do some of those things. For Max to leave UCDavis and Sacramento the offer had to be very, very good. He's excited about what he's going to be doing and I'm very happy for him.

I can't say much about his new positions yet because there are more announcements still to come, but it's likely he will be in the Sacramento area one week per month for the forseeable future to continue his work with NorCal athletes. As for my moving to Utah, doubtful, but some org's and entities have some very interesting things coming there for cyclists, with some nice $.