TOWARDS A NORMATIVE CASE FOR BICYCLE LIGHTS



D

datakoll

Guest
is this here Sigma stuff ura usin' cheap chinese junk or what? how's
it campari to Cateye?
 
H

Hank

Guest
On Mar 17, 5:34 am, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> is this here Sigma stuff ura usin' cheap chinese junk or what? how's
> it campari to Cateye?


Sigma Sport is based in Germany, but their manufacturing (like
everyone else's) is in China and Taiwan. Personally, I like their
computers better than Cateye's (easier-to-read display, twist-lock
mount, tool-free installation), but I haven't tried their lights.
 
S

SMS

Guest
On Mar 17, 8:09 am, Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:

> Actually, I probably have less invested in my bikes than most people
> on RBT, and I bet each of my bikes cost less than 70 per cent of the
> bikes ridden by RBTers. I have already pointed out elsewhere that the
> dearth of good rear lights, and their prices, is a scandal.


The price of good lights really is not a scandal. I once was in the
"good light" business. Manufacturing them myself, in small quantities,
and selling them pre-Internet at tiny margins. There are actually too
many small companies making too many good lights, and none are
achieving economies of scale, and no one is getting rich.

If there's any scandal at all, it's that poor lights are permitted to
proliferate due to the lack of realistic standards (or any standards
in some cases).

Any factory in China can assemble crappy LED rear lights and wholesale
them for sub-$1, and these end up being retailed for $5 to $10. The
CatEye rear light probably costs about $3 to manufacture, but they
also have the overhead of a real company to support. By the time they
wholesale them to dealers for $15, and the dealer marks it up 100%
(standard for accessories), you have a $30 rear light, but they're
(CatEye) probably is not getting rich off of this (especially
considering the weak dollar).

Now if someone could find a good rear light in China and Taiwan, and
sell it online for 50% margin, you might have $10 good rear lights.

>I have explained how you can DIY good lights cheaply.


As have many others. It is rather amusing how some people try to
invent stories about how expensive and difficult it is to build good
lights. So many mis-statements came from one individual that a few
years ago I put up a "Myths and Facts" section on my lighting web
site, with many of them coming from him. From 'It takes weeks of
cobbling in a workshop to construct a rechargeable bicycle lighting
system,' to 'MR16 and MR11 lamps are "decorator" lamps, because they
are used in some track lighting fixtures and display cases,' and 'you
must have bought cases of MR16 and MR11 lamps which you are trying to
unload," he's proven himself to be a veritable unlimited source of
misinformation on yet another subject which he knows little about. It
actually ceased to be amusing after a while, and a kill-file proved to
be a better solution, eliminating the temptation to engage in debate
with a know-it-all who knows nothing.
 
On Mar 17, 3:11 pm, Hank <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 17, 5:34 am, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > is this here Sigma stuff ura usin' cheap chinese junk or what? how's
> > it campari to Cateye?

>
> Sigma Sport is based in Germany, but their manufacturing (like
> everyone else's) is in China and Taiwan. Personally, I like their
> computers better than Cateye's (easier-to-read display, twist-lock
> mount, tool-free installation), but I haven't tried their lights.


I feel the same about their computers.

My cuberider is the only light of theirs I've tried, but overall the
lights seem to be of the same caliber as the computers.

Joseph
 
A

Andre Jute

Guest
On Mar 17, 5:57 pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 17, 3:11 pm, Hank <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 17, 5:34 am, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > is this here Sigma stuff ura usin' cheap chinese junk or what? how's
> > > it campari to Cateye?

>
> > Sigma Sport is based in Germany, but their manufacturing (like
> > everyone else's) is in China and Taiwan. Personally, I like their
> > computers better than Cateye's (easier-to-read display, twist-lock
> > mount, tool-free installation), but I haven't tried their lights.

>
> I feel the same about their computers.
>
> My cuberider is the only light of theirs I've tried, but overall the
> lights seem to be of the same caliber as the computers.
>
> Joseph


I too haven't tried the Sigma lights but like their heart rate
monitor. An expensive Ciclosport HAC4 lasted only three years after
costing 300 Euro, so I bought a Sigma PC9 HRM for just over forty
euro, and was surprised at how sturdy it is, how good the ergonomics
are -- buttons you can use while wearing gloves, a really readable
screen, an operating sequence that was designed by a cyclist -- and,
in general, how much quality you get for just about the price of a
replacement breast belt for the broken Ciclosport.

Andre Jute
A cyclist is not a chicken to be fleeced
 
A

Andre Jute

Guest
On Mar 17, 2:32 am, Hank <[email protected]> wrote:

> We're not saying you're a
> wimp for demanding your overkill, we just want you to stop calling us
> suicidal.


Relax, Hank. I don't notice much if people call me a wimp; most of
those who did are dead. And I don't think you're suicidal. You'd have
to be a lot more offensive than merely calling me a "jackass" to
qualify as suicidal. Oh, by the way, you're still wrong about what
corporatism meant in Italians fascism (hint, it had nothing to do with
the modern consumerism you're trying to connect it to) but I have a
nice little flame war going elsewhere so I've lost interest in
remedial recent European political history; if you're interested,
remind me in six weeks or so when things are slack on RBT and we can
jerk Musso's corpse around a little -- I met Skorzeny, who rescued him
from the partisans, during one of my exiles in South America.

Andre Jute
Eminently reasonable
 
A

A R:nen

Guest
Hank <[email protected]> writes:

> Sigma Sport is based in Germany, but their manufacturing (like
> everyone else's) is in China and Taiwan. Personally, I like their
> computers better than Cateye's (easier-to-read display, twist-lock
> mount, tool-free installation), but I haven't tried their lights.


The switch electronics in my Mirage Evo X lamp head failed before the
first test ride, ditto for the first replacement they sent (the second
replacement has been ok for about half a year by now, knock on wood).
I have heard/read similar stories from others as well so clearly they
do have some serious quality assurance issues. Not going to buy
anything more from them in the future, I think.
 
H

Hank

Guest
On Mar 18, 12:34 am, [email protected]i.fi (A R:nen) wrote:
> Hank <[email protected]> writes:
> > Sigma Sport is based in Germany, but their manufacturing (like
> > everyone else's) is in China and Taiwan. Personally, I like their
> > computers better than Cateye's (easier-to-read display, twist-lock
> > mount, tool-free installation), but I haven't tried their lights.

>
> The switch electronics in my Mirage Evo X lamp head failed before the
> first test ride, ditto for the first replacement they sent (the second
> replacement has been ok for about half a year by now, knock on wood).
> I have heard/read similar stories from others as well so clearly they
> do have some serious quality assurance issues. Not going to buy
> anything more from them in the future, I think.


Interestingly, I was looking at the box that my Sigma Sport BC906
computer came in last night, and it says: "Designed in Germany,
Manufactured in China, Tested in USA."

So, that last bit puts its QA a step ahead of the tainted food, drugs
and toys imported into the US from China that we keep hearing about.
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Andre Jute wrote:
> On Mar 17, 12:50 am, "Kerry Montgomery" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [...]
>> Andre,
>> A jackass is a male ass. A mule is the (usually sterile) offspring of a male
>> donkey and a female horse. A hinny is the (usually sterile) offspring of a
>> male horse and a female donkey. None of the three mentioned immediately
>> above (jackass, mule, hinny) are particularly dumb, either in intelligence
>> or in ability to make sounds.
>> Kerry

>
> I just live in the countryside, Kerry; I'm not a countryman. Thanks
> for the heads-up.
>

A mule is certainly smarter than most horses, since the horse will often
panic when it sees its own shadow. The mule also combines much of the
size of the horse, with the strength (proportional to size) toughness,
surefootedness and endurance of the donkey.

I really annoyed a quarter horse owner once by suggesting that a real
quarter horse was a cross between a donkey and a hinny. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Andre Jute wrote:
> [...]
> I find that one of the big advantages of sitting tall on my Dutch city
> bikes is that in daytime, and in close traffic at night, I can make
> eye-contact with the drivers of SUVs. Once they've looked you in the
> eye it is really very rare for them to do something stupid near you.
>

Looking SUV drivers in the eye in da 'hood could get you shot.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
A

Andre Jute

Guest
On Mar 20, 7:15 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > [...]
> > I find that one of the big advantages of sitting tall on my Dutch city
> > bikes is that in daytime, and in close traffic at night, I can make
> > eye-contact with the drivers of SUVs. Once they've looked you in the
> > eye it is really very rare for them to do something stupid near you.

>
> Looking SUV drivers in the eye in da 'hood could get you shot.


I've been shot because my team won too often at polo. Being shot by
gangbangers for a *good reason* like dissing them might be
refreshingly different.

Andre "Maximum Street Cred" Jute
Powerbiker
 
A

Andre Jute

Guest
On Mar 20, 7:07 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Mar 17, 12:50 am, "Kerry Montgomery" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> [...]
> >> Andre,
> >> A jackass is a male ass. A mule is the (usually sterile) offspring of amale
> >> donkey and a female horse. A hinny is the (usually sterile) offspring of a
> >> male horse and a female donkey. None of the three mentioned immediately
> >> above (jackass, mule, hinny) are particularly dumb, either in intelligence
> >> or in ability to make sounds.
> >> Kerry

>
> > I just live in the countryside, Kerry; I'm not a countryman. Thanks
> > for the heads-up.

>
> A mule is certainly smarter than most horses, since the horse will often
> panic when it sees its own shadow. The mule also combines much of the
> size of the horse, with the strength (proportional to size) toughness,
> surefootedness and endurance of the donkey.
>
> I really annoyed a quarter horse owner once by suggesting that a real
> quarter horse was a cross between a donkey and a hinny. ;)


Nah, the only owners of quarterhorses I know are friends, or the
parents of old girlfriends and therefore also friends. It's mules and
donkey I don't know about, nor their owners. (The ambiguity is
deliberate, of course.)

> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful


Andre Jute
 
C

Clive George

Guest
"(PeteCresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Per Michael Press:
>>In article
>><[email protected]>,
>> Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> This is the second post by Andre that didn't make to my NG
> reader.
>
> Individual.Net.
>
> I stumbled upon the first one (an extremely-detailed reply to
> something I had posted in another thread here) accidentally when
> Googling something.
>
> Anybody else not seeing Andre's posts via their news feed?


Anybody who's sensibly KF'd the guy?

On the original topic : BS 6102/3 and equivalents does a pretty good job of
defining what bike lights need to be, and hence answer the implicit question
posed. Riders may choose to supplement these requirements, and AJ clearly
does, but there's no actual need to do so. Heck, thousands of cyclists
demonstrate every day that you can in fact get away with no lights pretty
safely so long as you're careful.

I'll be sticking to steady LED front/rear powered from a hub dynamo for the
forseeable future, ie a few years. It's an improvement on my old halogen
front/LED rear from hub dynamo, which itself was an an improvement on
halogen front/filament rear from bottle dynamo, which was an improvement on
battery lights, and covers my moderately paced riding on unlit roads (no
more than 40mph downhill unless I'm lucky, down to <10mph uphill sometimes,
and 17-23 on the flatter stuff ) as well as city riding.

I'd recommend my setup to somebody looking for an reliable lighting set for
all-round road use, but won't be pretending it's the One True Way, because
some have different needs.

cheers,
clive
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Clive George wrote:
> "(PeteCresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> [...]
>> Anybody else not seeing Andre's posts via their news feed?

>
> Anybody who's sensibly KF'd the guy?
>

He is more entertaining than Mr. Ed the Grate.

> [...]
> I'll be sticking to steady LED front/rear powered from a hub dynamo for
> the forseeable future, ie a few years. It's an improvement on my old
> halogen front/LED rear from hub dynamo, which itself was an an
> improvement on halogen front/filament rear from bottle dynamo, which was
> an improvement on battery lights[...]


butbutbut, what about acetylene lights?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
C

Clive George

Guest
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Clive George wrote:
>> "(PeteCresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>> [...]
>>> Anybody else not seeing Andre's posts via their news feed?

>>
>> Anybody who's sensibly KF'd the guy?
>>

> He is more entertaining than Mr. Ed the Grate.


Granted.

>> [...]
>> I'll be sticking to steady LED front/rear powered from a hub dynamo for
>> the forseeable future, ie a few years. It's an improvement on my old
>> halogen front/LED rear from hub dynamo, which itself was an an
>> improvement on halogen front/filament rear from bottle dynamo, which was
>> an improvement on battery lights[...]

>
> butbutbut, what about acetylene lights?


Hey, I've got a couple of those. Not for bike use, but caving. Not that I've
actually used them in quite a long time...

cheers,
clive
 
K

Kristian M Zoerhoff

Guest
On 2008-04-15, Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
> "(PeteCresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Per Michael Press:
>>>In article
>>><[email protected]>,
>>> Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> This is the second post by Andre that didn't make to my NG
>> reader.
>>
>> Individual.Net.
>>
>> I stumbled upon the first one (an extremely-detailed reply to
>> something I had posted in another thread here) accidentally when
>> Googling something.
>>
>> Anybody else not seeing Andre's posts via their news feed?

>
> Anybody who's sensibly KF'd the guy?


Given that Andre posts via Google Groups, his posts are most likely
victims of of balnket filtering being applied in the wake of the
massive spam-fest that's pushed me to the brink of doing so.

--

Kristian Zoerhoff
[email protected]
 
A

Andre Jute

Guest
On Apr 16, 3:41 am, Kristian M Zoerhoff <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 2008-04-15, Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "(PeteCresswell)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]
> >> Per Michael Press:
> >>>In article
> >>><[email protected]>,
> >>> Andre Jute <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >> This is the second post by Andre that didn't make to my NG
> >> reader.

>
> >> Individual.Net.

>
> >> I stumbled upon the first one (an extremely-detailed reply to
> >> something I had posted in another thread here) accidentally when
> >> Googling something.

>
> >> Anybody else not seeing Andre's posts via their news feed?

>
> > Anybody who's sensibly KF'd the guy?


Whoever is Clive Georges and why does he have such a public hard-on
for me? Will it help if I send him some used underjocks to sniff?

> Given that Andre posts via Google Groups, his posts are most likely
> victims of of balnket filtering being applied in the wake of the
> massive spam-fest that's pushed me to the brink of doing so.


Nah, the only reason you haven't seen any posts from me is that I
haven't sent any for a while; while the weather is good enough to
cycle I don't spend too much time on the newsgroup. I have certainly
never missed a single post I sent.

>
> Kristian Zoerhoff
> [email protected]


Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/BICYCLE & CYCLING.html
 
C

Clive George

Guest
"Andre Jute" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]m...

> Whoever is Clive Georges and why does he have such a public hard-on
> for me? Will it help if I send him some used underjocks to sniff?


I understand you may harbour sexual fantasies about me, but to talk about
them in public is tending towards the weird.
 
T

TBerk

Guest
More power to the Dutch & Germans then because flashing lights can be
trouble, esp Front flashing lights.

There are sometimes answers to the difficult questions of life, like
how to avoid denting people shiny SUVs with our bikes and bodies.

Making myself glow in the dark isn't always the best answer though.

I spent half the day, yesterday, in Downtown San Francisco, CA. I had
my small messenger bag slung over my shoulder but lacked my helmet
(shame, shame.) I'm pretty sure some thought I was delivering stuff,
but the real guys just nodded at (me) a civilian and kept riding by.

In said bag were an LED headlight and separate rear light;

the front light is bright but DOESN'T flash, the rear is dual mode.

My two disimular points converge w/ the following- I rediscovered most
modern drivers are idiots. They are not attentive to the surrounding
traffic, bike nor other cars. They are both too aggressive, yet
submissive to the point of casuing more trouble by being indicisive,
and at the same time forgetting or outright rewriting the rules of the
road ( Right goes 1st. Straight goes 1st, turn After the guy going
straight, etc....)

Having a blinking front light would seem to casue these same drivers
to run into parked cars and trees, I'm not doing it.


TBerk
and don't get me started on mandating daytime driving lights....
 
S

SMS

Guest
TBerk wrote:

> Having a blinking front light would seem to casue these same drivers
> to run into parked cars and trees, I'm not doing it.


Where did you get that idea? Not that I think that flashing front lights
are necessarily a good idea, but I don't think they'd have any effect on
driver behavior.

> TBerk
> and don't get me started on mandating daytime driving lights....


Fortunately, GM's efforts to mandate DRLs in the U.S. have not been
successful.

In fact, the big problem with DRLs in the U.S. is that there is no
"normative case." Some idiot manufacturers (i.e. Saturn) were using the
high-beams at half brightness for DRLs, and the NHTSA received a lot of
complaints about this sort of DRL. Properly done DRLs wouldn't be so bad
(low intensity, aimed correctly). Saturn did it this way because it was
cheap, and they didn't want the low-beams burning out prematurely. But
high-beams, even at half-brightness are extremely annoying to oncoming
traffic.

Disconnection of DRLs is one of the most requested services that car
dealers get by new vehicle owners. All you do is tell them that you
often drive on military bases, and they'll disable them, usually at no
charge.

As is often the case with do-gooders, statistical evidence on DRLs shows
no benefit in terms of accidents of fatalities. The only group that
benefited at all from DRLs was pedestrians, but pedestrians would
benefit equally from well-designed DRLs.