Troll: Is it time to ask about O'grady?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by lazysegall, Aug 6, 2004.

  1. lazysegall

    lazysegall New Member

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    So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be taking the same stuff.
     
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  2. Chris

    Chris Guest

    "lazysegall" <[email protected]> wrote in
    message news:[email protected]
    >
    > So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    > Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    > Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    > least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a
    > troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    > tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be
    > taking the same stuff.


    Not when you know the whole story. He was gaining results as expected (in a
    normal trajectory) and then had a few health problems. I think he has
    surgery a few years back had to rebuild a bit from that setback. In the
    modern era of cycling it generally takes longer to mature to full strength
    and ability to exploit that strength. Take a look at the average age of the
    winners of WC and classics and you will see that O'grady is not really out
    of the norm. Then again, some would claim that it is the drug use that is
    behind this trend of older winners. In the end there is no more or less
    evidence against him than there is against any other athlete that stays out
    of trouble.

    >
    > --
    > lazysegall
    >
     
  3. On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 04:44:53 +1000, lazysegall
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    >So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    >Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    >Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    >least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a
    >troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    >tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be
    >taking the same stuff.


    I really don't think you can spot drug use by performance. There are
    do many diverse factors that go into riding well.

    Also, O'Grady was always close to a big win. His climbing really came
    along recently, but he's been really good for quite awhile.

    JT
     
  4. TritonRider

    TritonRider Guest

    >From: John Forrest Tomlinson [email protected]

    >Also, O'Grady was always close to a big win. His climbing really came
    >along recently, but he's been really good for quite awhile.
    >
    >JT
    >
    >


    I'm hoping that he has at least a couple of Zabel like years. He seems a
    decent sort, and he's not McWhiner.
    Bill C
     
  5. lazysegall <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    >
    > So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    > Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    > Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    > least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a
    > troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    > tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be
    > taking the same stuff.
    >
    >


    So sad... guilt by association.

    - Boyd "not like he'd ever worn the yellow or green jersey" S.
     
  6. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "John Forrest Tomlinson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 04:44:53 +1000, lazysegall
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    > >Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    > >Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    > >least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a
    > >troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    > >tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be
    > >taking the same stuff.

    >
    > I really don't think you can spot drug use by performance. There are
    > do many diverse factors that go into riding well.
    >
    > Also, O'Grady was always close to a big win. His climbing really came
    > along recently, but he's been really good for quite awhile.


    I wonder if it occurs to people that because they're catching so many dopers
    that a lot of people have stopped and those "almost" riders who weren't
    doping now have the advantage?
     
  7. lazysegall

    lazysegall New Member

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    Guilt and suspicion are two very different things. Any investigation starts with suspicion. I think that O'grady's association merits some question of doping, but I am not saying that he is a doper. I only thought that for all the threads about doping he might be a reasonbale guy to ask about.
     
  8. Sonarrat

    Sonarrat Guest

    in article [email protected], lazysegall at
    [email protected] wrote on 8/6/04 11:44 AM:

    > So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    > Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    > Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    > least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a
    > troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    > tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be
    > taking the same stuff.


    If Stuart O'Grady is on drugs right now, he may be the dumbest man alive.

    -Sonarrat.
     
  9. Chris wrote:

    > "lazysegall" <[email protected]> wrote in
    > message news:[email protected]
    >
    >>So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    >>Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    >>Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    >>least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a
    >>troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    >>tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be
    >>taking the same stuff.

    >
    >
    > Not when you know the whole story. He was gaining results as expected (in a
    > normal trajectory) and then had a few health problems. I think he has
    > surgery a few years back had to rebuild a bit from that setback. In the
    > modern era of cycling it generally takes longer to mature to full strength
    > and ability to exploit that strength. Take a look at the average age of the
    > winners of WC and classics and you will see that O'grady is not really out
    > of the norm. Then again, some would claim that it is the drug use that is
    > behind this trend of older winners. In the end there is no more or less
    > evidence against him than there is against any other athlete that stays out
    > of trouble.


    IIRC a couple years ago O'Grady got mugged in his home away from home,
    Toulouse. A fairly hard whack on the head with a hard object left him
    in bad shape for a while. I think he's also had problems with irregular
    high heart rate, hitting 235 during a TdF stage and a knee problem, too.
    This looked like it was going to be a good year, as much of his health
    problems have stayed behind him and he's developed good form. The
    Gaumont/Vasseur/Millar/Lelli carnival haven't been helpful.


    >
    >>--
    >>lazysegall
    >>

    >
    >
    >
     
  10. Kenny

    Kenny Guest

    lazysegall <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    > Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    > Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    > least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a
    > troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    > tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be
    > taking the same stuff.


    I'm glad someone asks the right questions

    Kenny
     
  11. crit pro

    crit pro Guest

    lazysegall <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    > Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    > Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    > least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a
    > troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    > tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be
    > taking the same stuff.



    These questions needed to be asked.

    crit pro
     
  12. lazysegall <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Boyd Speerschneider Wrote:
    > > lazysegall <[email protected]> wrote in
    > > news:[email protected]:
    > >
    > > >
    > > > So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    > > > Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    > > > Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    > > > least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be

    > a
    > > > troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    > > > tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would

    > be
    > > > taking the same stuff.
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > > So sad... guilt by association.
    > >
    > > - Boyd "not like he'd ever worn the yellow or green jersey" S.

    > Guilt and suspicion are two very different things. Any investigation
    > starts with suspicion. I think that O'grady's association merits some
    > question of doping, but I am not saying that he is a doper. I only
    > thought that for all the threads about doping he might be a reasonbale
    > guy to ask about.



    He rode for Credit Agricole over the last few seasons and was signed
    to Cofidis for 2004. Millar, Lelli and Gaumont's shenanigans precede
    Stuey's arrival. Keep in mind Cofidis' strategy to stay at a high
    level has been to sign riders who have performed well and have mucho
    UCI points.
     
  13. Kyle Legate

    Kyle Legate Guest

    "Sonarrat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:BD39AA95.76F5%[email protected]
    > in article [email protected], lazysegall at
    > [email protected] wrote on 8/6/04 11:44 AM:
    >
    > > So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    > > Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    > > Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    > > least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a
    > > troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    > > tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be
    > > taking the same stuff.

    >
    > If Stuart O'Grady is on drugs right now, he may be the dumbest man alive.
    >

    I believe that title falls to Oscar Camenzind.
     
  14. John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
    > On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 04:44:53 +1000, lazysegall
    > <[email protected]> wrote:


    > >So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    > >Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    > >Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    > >least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a
    > >troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    > >tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be
    > >taking the same stuff.

    >
    > I really don't think you can spot drug use by performance. There are
    > do many diverse factors that go into riding well.
    >
    > Also, O'Grady was always close to a big win. His climbing really came
    > along recently, but he's been really good for quite awhile.


    Agree. O'Grady's career wasn't "winding down" at all. Rather he was
    evolving from a not-quite-the-top pack sprinter into a guy who could be
    in at the end of long hard World-Cup-distance races. Several other
    people have done that (Museeuw, Jalabert). Think this became clear when
    O'Grady got 3rd in Flanders a year and a half ago. Which was before
    Cofidis, etc.
     
  15. crit pro

    crit pro Guest

    [email protected] (crit pro) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > lazysegall <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > > So O'grady's career is winding down and then he joins doping outfit
    > > Confidis. All of a sudden he wins 2 Dauphine Stages, TDF stage, Hew
    > > Classic. Now we learn that Massimiliano Lelli was also doping or at
    > > least giving people EPO along with millar and Guamont. I hate to be a
    > > troll, but this looks oddly suspicious. Of course O'grady hasn't
    > > tested positive, but neither did Millar and presumably the two would be
    > > taking the same stuff.

    >
    >
    > These questions needed to be asked.
    >
    > crit pro



    bombs the olympic road race.
    goes to some 'training camp in europe'
    returns to Games to win gold in madison.
    which is an event that he hadn't really trained for.
    hhhmmmm.
     
  16. David Covey

    David Covey Guest

    John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    >
    > I really don't think you can spot drug use by performance. There are
    > do many diverse factors that go into riding well.


    The sad truth about pro cycling - and probably always has been -
    is that you have to assume somebody IS taking drugs until they get
    caught or own up. Then you KNOW. I've followed pro cycling since I
    was a kid - used to buy Miroir du Cyclisme in the early 60s jeez I
    wish I still had them - and when I think back at how many of the big
    stars from then died young. It's too much like coincidence.

    Of course, if everybody is then it makes it pointless. Which
    fits pretty well with how humans run things :)

    Cheers

    David
     
  17. On 26 Aug 2004 05:40:10 -0700, [email protected] (David Covey)
    wrote:

    >John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    >>
    >> I really don't think you can spot drug use by performance. There are
    >> do many diverse factors that go into riding well.

    >
    > The sad truth about pro cycling - and probably always has been -
    >is that you have to assume somebody IS taking drugs until they get
    >caught or own up. Then you KNOW.


    Sad but largely on track.

    I think though in pro sport that people who actually push for more out
    of competiton testing, more neutral testing by people outside the
    sport, etc, are much more likely to be clean. Not so many people are
    such blatant hypocrites as to advocate that stuff while doping --
    whereas evading or lying is easier.

    Becky Scott the skier comes to mind. I am convinced she is clean. I
    also believe in cycling that Mottet and Hampsten were clean due to
    what they have said and what people who know doping have said.

    JT

    ****************************
    Remove "remove" to reply
    Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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  18. patch70

    patch70 New Member

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    Most of the big riders bombed the olympic road race (apart from Bettini). It was ~40 degrees (celsius).
    Just before this, he'd won the HEW Classic as well as his great tour performance, so clearly he was in form. You must be pretty stupid if you think he could dope himself up to a gold in a week.
    He has ridden track most of his cycling life and so he is more than familiar with the madison.
    The guy is a very talented, very hard working rider who is one of the most down to earth people you could meet. I am convinced that he is not a doper.
    Are you a tad jealous perhaps crit pro?
     
  19. mocka58

    mocka58 New Member

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    He didn't "bomb" the Olympic road race. He finished in the pack after a respectable ride. He had won the HEW Classic the weekend before so he was in pretty good shape. And I suggest that you research his career a little more thoroughly. He was a world class track rider befor he ever raced a European road season. Someone with his track racing knowledge and experience could concievably adapt to madison racing in a short period.
     
  20. Donald Munro

    Donald Munro Guest

    crit pro wrote:
    >> bombs the olympic road race.
    >> goes to some 'training camp in europe'
    >> returns to Games to win gold in madison.
    >> which is an event that he hadn't really trained for.
    >> hhhmmmm.


    > He didn't "bomb" the Olympic road race. He finished in the pack after
    > a respectable ride. He had won the HEW Classic the weekend before so he
    > was in pretty good shape. And I suggest that you research his career a
    > little more thoroughly. He was a world class track rider befor he ever
    > raced a European road season. Someone with his track racing knowledge
    > and experience could concievably adapt to madison racing in a short
    > period.


    Mr. pro thinks everybody that's better than him must be doing drugs.
     
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