VO2max training - Why use power and not HR?

[CycleFast]

The main goal of VO2max training (e.g. Level 5 Coggan/Stern) is to make the heart get close to its maximum cardiac output.

Given this goal, why not use a target HR for such a workout, rather than power?

_________
CycleFast

 

[frenchyge]

The first couple pages of this document contain an excellent discussion of the advantages of power monitoring during training.

http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/PowerTrainingChapter.pdf

 

[acoggan]

The main goal of VO2max training (e.g. Level 5 Coggan/Stern) is to make the heart get close to its maximum cardiac output.

Given this goal, why not use a target HR for such a workout, rather than power?

_________
CycleFast

One logical reason would be because cardiac output is more closely related to power than to heart rate. Consider, for example, exercise in hot/humid vs. a thermally neutral environment: heart rate will tend to be higher, but power and hence VO2/cardiac output will be tend to be lower. You would therefore expect that if you were training for competition in a thermally neutral environment, it would be better to do your VO2max intervals at the higher power, even if heart rate were lower.

Having said the above, we obtained a 30% increase in VO2max by having previously untrained men perform 6 x 5 min on/2.5 min off 3 d/wk for 12 wk, with the goal during each interval being to elevate heart rate to within 5-10 beats/min of maximum. IOW, training prescriptions based on heart rate can certainly be effective, and how often (or even if) and how hard you do such intervals is far more important than whether you do them based on heart rate or power.

 

[AndROOb]

http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/interval.htm

I dont wish to hijack this thread, but a web page I found on interval training has concerned me. It is not a new web page, and the link is above, but what concerns me is the conflict of opinion expressed with regard to levels at which VO2max intervals should be performed. I am currently using VO2max intervals in a build up to a 10 mile TT in mid December, and would be very interested to hear Andy Coggans, and anyone elses comments on the web page contents.

If this issue has been covered already, I apologise, please 'link' me in the right direction.

 

[frenchyge]

http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/interval.htm

I dont wish to hijack this thread, but a web page I found on interval training has concerned me. It is not a new web page, and the link is above, but what concerns me is the conflict of opinion expressed with regard to levels at which VO2max intervals should be performed.

Can you be more specific about where you see the conflict? It says that there's little to no difference between doing intervals at 80% VO2max and intervals at 100% VO2max, but are you seeing a conflict between that and something else that's been published? Or are you referring to the "waves of change" discussions?

 

[rmur17]

http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/interval.htm

I dont wish to hijack this thread, but a web page I found on interval training has concerned me. It is not a new web page, and the link is above, but what concerns me is the conflict of opinion expressed with regard to levels at which VO2max intervals should be performed. I am currently using VO2max intervals in a build up to a 10 mile TT in mid December, and would be very interested to hear Andy Coggans, and anyone elses comments on the web page contents.

If this issue has been covered already, I apologise, please 'link' me in the right direction.

From Stephens:

2) Aerobic interval training is definitely effective, but the emphasis should be on interval durations of from 10 to 20 minutes if your event duration is greater than 4 minutes. Intervals of 4 to 8 minute duration are going to be at intensities of 85 to 100% of VO2 max. This intensity and duration is optimal for maximizing/maintaining cardiovascular power. However, remember that this adaptation plateaus "early". Your incorporation of 4-8 minute intervals probably needn't ever exceed once every 8 days. Consequently, the majority of your training time should be aimed at optimizing the signal for other adaptations. Longer intervals of 10 to 20 minute duration will be at 75 to 85% depending on your abiity and training status, and are a very useful method for developing skeletal muscle endurance, "the Second Wave of Change". With both intervals the duration will generally force you into the right intensity range, if you are giving a good effort. The intermittant nature will help you to accumulate minutes of high quality work. I think 24 to 32 minutes of accumulated interval time is appropriate for most of us when performing the 4 to 8 minute intervals There will be little or no benefit from longer sessions.

okay let's compare Stephens and Dr. Coggan's recommendations for Vo2max/Level 5 training:

(1) Duration: Stephens 4-8 min, A.Coggan 3-8 min (Essentially the same)
(2) Intensity: Stephens 85-100% Vo2max, A.Coggan 105-120%FT
For my best form: Stephens 391-460W, A.Coggan: 404-462W (close enough!)
(3) Workout volume: Stephens 24-32 min total Work Interval time, A.Coggan 5-6 x 5min (std. suggestion) or 25-30 min total WI (the same).

Uhm, where's the clash?

rmur

 

[acoggan]

Uhm, where's the clash?

I thought that band broke up?

BTW, our recommendations for VO2max intervals are not all that Steve Seiler and I have in common: he also got his PhD at the University of Texas, albeit a few years after I did.

A bit more seriously: I think this whole thread is yet another example of how people tend to focus too much on the microstructure of a training program, while often ignoring/neglecting the microstructure. The bottom line is that it probably doesn't make a bit of difference HOW you do your VO2max intervals - just that you do them in the appropriate amount at the appropriate time considering your abilities and goals.

 

[RapDaddyo]

A bit more seriously: I think this whole thread is yet another example of how people tend to focus too much on the microstructure of a training program, while often ignoring/neglecting the microstructure. The bottom line is that it probably doesn't make a bit of difference HOW you do your VO2max intervals - just that you do them in the appropriate amount at the appropriate time considering your abilities and goals.

While on the subject of VO2MAX intervals, I have a question for you, Andy. I do L4-L6 intervals throughout my "hard" training rides, which are often 3+ hours in total duration. The intervals late in a ride are much harder to complete due to the cumulative fatigue of the ride, and reflecting the fact that all of the target power levels are derived from my power/duration curve or FT and not from my MP for the total ride duration (which could be 5-10% less than FT). But, if I understand correctly, the adaptation benefit is no greater in spite of the greatly increased difficulty of completing the interval. Am I right?

 

[AndROOb]

Quote:

1) Interval training at above 100% VO2 max will not provide additional stimulus for improving maximal aerobic capacity, or lactate threshold, and may hurt.

There is substantial research to indicate that there is little or no difference in the impact on maximal oxygen consumption among exercise intensities ranging from 80 to 100% of VO2 max. At intensities above 100%, the stimulus for improving maximal oxygen consumption is actually reduced, due to dramatically decreased training volume, and the inhibiting effect of lactic acidosis on cellular oxygen utilization.

Unquote.

It was the quote above that concerned me. I dont know if I am confusing VO2max and VO2max power, in fact I'm a bit confused by it.
The reason for my concern is that my MAP is 390w at 188MHR.
I am doing VO2max intervals at 345watts(6 x 4on / 4off), and I thought this was above my VO2max. I want to do these intervals right, and this information above made me question what I was doing. Please put me right on this.

I apologise again for hi-jacking someone elses thread, with something that was not a conflict of opinion.

 

[Smartt/RST]

Just in case anyone was confused, Andy meant to write....

I think this whole thread is yet another example of how people tend to focus too much on the microstructure of a training program, while often ignoring/neglecting the [macrostructure]. The bottom line is that it probably doesn't make a bit of difference HOW you do your VO2max intervals - just that you do them in the appropriate amount at the appropriate time considering your abilities and goals.

 

[Smartt/RST]

...I dont know if I am confusing VO2max and VO2max power, in fact I'm a bit confused by it.
The reason for my concern is that my MAP is 390w at 188MHR.
I am doing VO2max intervals at 345watts(6 x 4on / 4off), and I thought this was above my VO2max. I want to do these intervals right, and this information above made me question what I was doing. Please put me right on this.

AndROOb,
It sounds like part of your confusion is semantics and the other has to do with what is necessary to stimulate increases in maximal oxygen consumption.
The semantics:
VO2max is the maximal rate at which your body can consume oxygen; irrespective of power output.
VO2max Power/Maximal Aerobic Power would be the the power that is associated with VO2max, as achieved during an incremental test to exhaustion/VO2max test.
Maximal Aerobic Power, as RST defines it, can also be the average power from the final minute of an incremental test to exhaustion.
How to increase your VO2max:
If you calculated MAP the way we do at RST, then go here to determine the power needed to stimulate increases in VO2max/MAP: http://www.cyclecoach.com/pageID-downloadPages-Calculate_your_MAP_zones.htm
As you quoted, most people don't need to train at 100% VO2max to stimulate increases in VO2max. So, if your MAP/VO2max Power = 390W, then training at 345W would be ~85% of the power associated with your VO2max (and would equal just over 90% of VO2max). This would fall within the quidelines of the statement that you quoted.

 

[CycleFast]

Thanks to all of you who have contributed, this was very clarifying!

 

[CycleFast]

Thanks to all of you who have contributed, this was very clarifying!

_________
CycleFast

 

[Roadie_scum]

A bit more seriously: I think this whole thread is yet another example of how people tend to focus too much on the microstructure of a training program, while often ignoring/neglecting the microstructure. The bottom line is that it probably doesn't make a bit of difference HOW you do your VO2max intervals - just that you do them in the appropriate amount at the appropriate time considering your abilities and goals.

Happiness! Let's talk macrostructure...

How do VO2max intervals fit into a a typical road racing season where form and peaking needs to be 'handled with care' so that multiple events can be ridden throughout the year?

 

[AndROOb]

AndROOb,
It sounds like part of your confusion is semantics and the other has to do with what is necessary to stimulate increases in maximal oxygen consumption.
The semantics:
VO2max is the maximal rate at which your body can consume oxygen; irrespective of power output.
VO2max Power/Maximal Aerobic Power would be the the power that is associated with VO2max, as achieved during an incremental test to exhaustion/VO2max test.
Maximal Aerobic Power, as RST defines it, can also be the average power from the final minute of an incremental test to exhaustion.
How to increase your VO2max:
If you calculated MAP the way we do at RST, then go here to determine the power needed to stimulate increases in VO2max/MAP: http://www.cyclecoach.com/pageID-downloadPages-Calculate_your_MAP_zones.htm
As you quoted, most people don't need to train at 100% VO2max to stimulate increases in VO2max. So, if your MAP/VO2max Power = 390W, then training at 345W would be ~85% of the power associated with your VO2max (and would equal just over 90% of VO2max). This would fall within the quidelines of the statement that you quoted.

Michael, thank you for explaining that.
I feel enlightened, and no longer confused or concerned.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Happiness! Let's talk macrostructure...

How do VO2max intervals fit into a a typical road racing season where form and peaking needs to be 'handled with care' so that multiple events can be ridden throughout the year?

I like to book it rather early in the SP phase. Because I don't spend that much time developping it, and find it doesn't require that much maintainance afterward.

In triathlon, during the competition season, I prescribe VO2Max workout only when there is no race in the week. Or I may include a fraction, like 12 minutes for example, of VO2Max work as part of a quality workout.