Walking Alone.....

W. D. Grey said:

There's none so deaf as ddoesn't want to hear1

While not specific, I read that as saying you think I'm being a fool.
And you're entitled to your opinion, but it remains a fact that walking
without a mobile 'phone is not an inherently dangerous pastime, so I
really don't see I'm being irresponsible not scrabbling to make it
safer. 350 people are killed in a typical year tripping and falling
downsatirs: are builders irresponsible in not making more buildings
single storey?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

W. D. Grey said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Phil Cook
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

I'm with Clinchy on this one. To say that not carring a mobile is a
mistake is absolute [censored].

Can't agree at all with this sentiment.

If you have a mobile phone it takes little effort to carry it if only
for emergencies.

Bear with me if you can and I'll illustrate my point.

Firstly, I don't need a Mobile.Phone when I go fishing - a perfectly
reasonable approach.- you might agree. A few years ago I was with a
group of anglers at the British Steel Reservoir Margam when one of them
suffered a black out and ended up unconscious, face down in the water

No one would have imagined that the mobile phone would have been used
that day.

As I said, accidents have a habit of happening to unsuspecting people

Quoted message said:

Oh yes and I'd been an angler for many years and never carried a mobile
until they became available.

So Phil, Your opinion, like Pete's is always respected, but on this
occasion your statement above is not in keeping with your normal level
headed approach.

Several points.

Fishing in a group is not like walking alone.
Fishing involves standing by (or even in) deep water. Perhaps you had
better invest in a lifejacket.
If I black out on a hill and have a mobile with me it is going to be
bugger all use if I am ALONE

--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Phil Cook said:

W. D. Grey wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I said, accidents have a habit of happening to unsuspecting people

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So Phil, Your opinion, like Pete's is always respected, but on this
occasion your statement above is not in keeping with your normal level
headed approach.

Quoted message said:

Several points.

Fishing in a group is not like walking alone.
Fishing involves standing by (or even in) deep water. Perhaps you had
better invest in a lifejacket.
If I black out on a hill and have a mobile with me it is going to be
bugger all use if I am ALONE

But the main point I'd make in answer is you can easily envisage
scenarios in which all sorts of safety equipment makes good sense, so if
one such anecdote is a good reason to take that item then you'll end up
with all sorts of stuff you can manage fine without but which /might/
save your life.
I'll often wear my climbing helmet in the Black Cuillin because of all
the loose rock on the multiple scrambles, and it's not too hard to
envision it making a useful difference. I've actually seen someone hit
by a large block of ice on the head as they were crossing a gully on An
Teallach, and I'm very sure Debs was /very/ glad she'd erred on the side
of caution that day.
So from that we can see that helmets are potentially lifesavers, so do I
think anyone on steep, scrambly routes with some loose rock is
completely mad not to wear one and should be chastised for unnecessary
risk taking? A pal ended up in hospital for a few days having tripped
and banged his head on a rock, so it doesn't even need to be steep...
For that matter, scrambles would often be safer with formal ropework, so
should we chastise people for doing, say, the scramble down from Am
Bodach on the Aonach Eagach without ropes?

There just isn't any objective spot you can put a line saying where
things become *fundamentally* necessary. So it's silly getting into the
business of trying to do so.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Leonard Trim said:

But at a slight tangent to the main drift of the conversation. Has
anyone regularly checked to see if they can get a signal on their
mobile. Sure you will get one on most summits, but in my experience they
are still bloody useless when you are lower down and in the 'shadow' of
any other mountain.

If you're in the business of saying something which /might/ make a
difference should go, then that's a non-argument. I'm not saying that,
since I realise my pack would get a lot heavier if I took all the things
that /might/ get a difference...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 11:01:02 +0100, Peter Clinch <[email hidden]>
wrote:

| You're right that nothing is totally risk free, but it's also the case
| that a lot of things are sufficiently risk free that it isn't worth
| obsessing over cutting the risk smaller than it already is.

I have a rule about which risks to take care about.
We kill 10 people per day 3500 per year on the roads.
Risks which kill more than that, I might worry about.
Risks which kill a lot fewer than that I ignore.
I also take account number of people at risk.
56M are at risk on the roads, fewer walk on the hills.

--
Dave F

I noticed that Message-ID: <[email hidden]> from Peter
Clinch contained the following:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't see the point of owning a mobile phone if you don't have it with
you.

Mine generally goes in the car, the roads being a much riskier
environment than the hills, and where the risk of the car breaking down
is much greater than me breaking down on a walk also much greater.

My phone is with me and switched on. My mother has Parkinson's and I
like her to be able to contact me whenever she needs to. In an
emergency, I could cut my walk short.

So if anyone doesn't like this, tough.

--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

Geoff Berrow said:

My phone is with me and switched on. My mother has Parkinson's and I
like her to be able to contact me whenever she needs to. In an
emergency, I could cut my walk short.

So if anyone doesn't like this, tough.

I think this misses a point. Nobody that I've noticed has said you
should clearly not take a moby with you. However, those of us being
lectured as to our madness in choosing not to take one have taken issue
with them being a de-facto /necessity/ for *every* walker.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peewiglet said:

How about accidents?

Well, I won't dispute that they happen, but they don't actually happen
very /much/. Certainly not enough to warrant /always/ having access to
a 'phone or not going on the grounds it's madness.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peewiglet said:

How about accidents?

Well, I won't dispute that they happen, but they don't actually happen
very /much/. Certainly not enough to warrant /always/ having access to
a 'phone or not going on the grounds it's madness.

Peter, your posts often contain a lot of words surrounded by the forward
slash "/" why ? is it a typo problem, software issue or does it have some
other meaning .

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

There just isn't any objective spot you can put a line saying where
things become *fundamentally* necessary. So it's silly getting into
the business of trying to do so.

But it is no big deal to carry such a small item such as a mobile phone.
I'm beginning to think it is the name "mobile phone" that is driving
people mad.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

Stuart said:

Peter, your posts often contain a lot of words surrounded by the forward
slash "/" why ? is it a typo problem, software issue or does it have some
other meaning .

It is to italics what *asterisks* around a word are to bold. It's not
just me that thinks this way, btw, some newsreaders will render such
delineated words in italic (and words surrounded by asterisks in bold)
for you.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

While not specific, I read that as saying you think I'm being a fool.
And you're entitled to your opinion, but it remains a fact that walking
without a mobile 'phone is not an inherently dangerous pastime,

You may recall my original posting where I said I respected your
opinions, and I would never call you a fool as you have displayed so
often that you are not.
You seem to be turning the discussion from the point that it is wise to
carry a mobile phone for emergencies in to one that would appear to make
a walk/clinb dangerous without a phone. I'm not a climber but I think
I'm right in saying a climb could be considered dangerous without ropes,
but having or not having a phone would have no effect on the danger
involved.

You seem to be confusing safety equipment with emergency equipment.

--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

"Peewiglet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 23:27:52 +0100, Simon Challands
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

I didn't advocate anything, just moaned against something I definitely
didn't advocate, because I don't view fellwalking as sensibly risky

unless

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you're the type of cretin who'll do something really stupid then expect
others to bail you out. And that, to me, sums up life in general, not

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

walking, which inherently isn't risky if you're not stupid.

How about accidents?

I would guess that in most cases the mobile phone to the loan hillwalker
will not be of much use after an accident. For instance 1) if you have just
bounced all the way down five finger gully on the Ben then the chances are
your phones keypad will of become damaged rendering the phone as useless!
2)You may slip bang your noggin and forget you have a phone in your pack! 3)
and most poignantly of all, the chances of tripping breaking a leg in a
place where you can get reception is about nil ....thats the way sods law
works

In article <[email hidden]>, Stuart
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peewiglet said:

How about accidents?

Well, I won't dispute that they happen, but they don't actually happen
very /much/. Certainly not enough to warrant /always/ having access to
a 'phone or not going on the grounds it's madness.

Peter, your posts often contain a lot of words surrounded by the forward
slash "/" why ? is it a typo problem, software issue or does it have some
other meaning .

If Peter wants to emphasise a word he does it /this/ way instead of
*this* way.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

The message <[email hidden]>
from GSV Three Minds in a Can <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mobile phone? Yuck. There were plenty of solo walkers before mobile phones,
and they weren't all fools.

Quoted message said:

No, because they didn't have the choice. Going out without one today is
an avoidable mistake. Today going out alone without your Medicaid 'bot
is unavoidable. In 50 years it will be a really stupid thing to do.

Don't be silly. Just because you foresee the need to phone home doesn't
mean that the rest of us need or want such support.

I don't think having a mobile phone is worth either the cost of purchase
or the effort in carrying it. As others have said being on ones own
tends to add caution to the equation. A psychological prop like a mobile
phone would tend to erode that caution making the situation more
dangerous rather than safer. Look at the way seat belts have encouraged
drivers to take more risks.

I wouldn't suggest to anyone that they should walk alone because it is
undoubtedly riskier than walking in company but that doesn't stop me
deciding to take the risk myself. I usually walk alone and have done so
for most of my adult life. It is a level of risk I am comfortable with
and on an absolute scale a good deal less risky than venturing out in a
car on our crowded and inadequate roads. Should all drivers be required
to add a mobile phone to the seemingly endless list of compulsories that
is modern driving?

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 28 summits
New - 15 (Marilyns 4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 13 (Marilyns 3, Sweats 7, Wainwrights 6, Outlying Fells 0)

In article <[email hidden]>, Leonard Trim
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

But at a slight tangent to the main drift of the conversation. Has
anyone regularly checked to see if they can get a signal on their
mobile. Sure you will get one on most summits, but in my experience they
are still bloody useless when you are lower down and in the 'shadow' of
any other mountain.

In the Western fans, when walking between Sinc Giedd and Fan Byrcheiniog
i.e.on the S W of Fan Brycheiniog, there is no signal until one reaches
the top. This is an area not normally frequented by walkers and anyone
here needing external assistance would be difficult to locate and treat.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

Leonard Trim said:

But at a slight tangent to the main drift of the conversation. Has
anyone regularly checked to see if they can get a signal on their
mobile. Sure you will get one on most summits, but in my experience they
are still bloody useless when you are lower down and in the 'shadow' of
any other mountain. This being particularly true in the NW highlands. No
doubt some phone companies are better than others. Currently I am with
Virgin which seems to be less use than an ashtray on a motorbike.

Vodafone and O2 are the only ones worth having in the Scottish Hills.
Sufficient anecdotal evidence exists to suggest that Vodafone has the
slight edge, though the majority of the infrastructure is actually
shared between the two.

Just across from the Cluanie Inn, on the old road to Tomdoun, there's a
large transmitter/relay post. You'll get a perfect Vodafone signal
nearby but none from O2. The signs on the structure indicate that it
belongs to O2 - go figure.

druidh

W. D. Grey said:

You seem to be turning the discussion from the point that it is wise to
carry a mobile phone for emergencies in to one that would appear to make
a walk/clinb dangerous without a phone.

I'm saying that emergencies are sufficiently few and far between in uk
recreational walking that regarding it as foolhardy not to prepare for
them by carrying a 'phone (which certainly doesn't cover all the angles
possibly necessary) is an over-the-top reaction to the risks involved,
given the number of other risks we regularly run that are considerably
more likely to cause us harm.

If it's not dangerous to go for a walk without my 'phone, why does it
matter if I do that?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

W. D. Grey said:

But it is no big deal to carry such a small item such as a mobile phone.

A couple of problems with this. First of all, the presence of a
telephone in my rucksack alters my connection with the environment I am
in, even if it isn't turned on and even if I only turn it on in an
emergency. Obviously the nature of my connection to the outdoor
environment is important to me, or I wouldn't be there to appreciate it.
I hope you can see that even if this doesn't bother *you* then it
/can/ bother some people.

Next up, there are an awful lot of things that are just small items and
hardly take up any space so it's daft not to take them, but when you sum
them all you have considerable extra bulk and weight. I've got a drawer
full of these sorts of things, and I don't always take all of them
because they really do make a difference when taken together.

Quoted message said:

I'm beginning to think it is the name "mobile phone" that is driving
people mad.

If it's something they don't want then the statistics for UK
recreational walker carnage are not so monstrously bloody as to make
them swallow their objections and take one.
Quite a lot of people don't have them (if the battery goes on mine as
it's threatening to I doubt I'll bother replacing it, and I'll be one
too in that event), so should they really spend whatever a 'phone costs
now Just In Case an unlikely event happens /and/ it happens to be any
actual use?
I don't think it's reasonable to expect that of people.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Phil Cook" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

snip<

Quoted message said:

Cliff edges give me the willies, I tend to keep away from them.

Oh dear, now we'll have male homosexuals following the cliff edges all
around the uk :o) (No offence meant!)

--
Regards, Paul (R)
My Lake District walking site:
www.lakelandwalker.co.uk