Mozz wrote:
> Hello Andrew,
Hi Mozz.
> >> Most of my research is from good old fashioned books I'm sorry to say. If I come across any
> >> relevant online work I'll flag it up for you though.
> >
> >I am surprised you have not returned better prepared.
>
> My preferance for research is books as opposed to the internet. I have found a high proportion of
> online research flawed and unreliable due to the lack of editorial checks and balances.
>
Ok, show us the few online references about buddha that you favor.
> As I said, if I happen upon anything useful on the subjects in question I will happily pass this
> information on to you. However, if you decide to doubt what I have said then that is perfectly
> acceptable.
This is called a discussion. Whether I doubt you should not concern you. Whether you doubt me does
not concern me.
> No problem.
Then why mention it?
>
> >> Surely you are not asking me why we should be concerned about fairness, impartiality and
> >> reason?
>
> >These things will take care of themselves. They do not need either your protection or nurturing.
>
> And yet my past experience of debating with you and some others here on SMC has revealed a
> flagrant disregard for fairness, impartiality and reason.
I see this as a discussion, an activity for information exchange.
Why do you seem so defensive?
> >Go ahead and cite something on-line that supports your assertion that and Indian woman advanced
> >in social status if her husband chose to pursue a spiritual path.
>
> See above.
>
"on-line"
> >> I understand that a widely held definition of sin is 'transgression and thus seperation from
> >> God' - If so, the concept of sin itself upholds a mistaken view of reality as a belief in a
> >> creator deity is a delusion.
> >
> >Folks recognize sin even when they do not believe in God.
>
> Can you give some examples of this?
>
You do not believe in God and yet you recognize a "disregard for fairness."
To kill another is unfair.
To steal from another is unfair.
To bear false witness regarding another is unfair.
(Stephen likely will chime in right about here claiming to be unfairly accused of cyberstalking...
this is to be expected because the untruthful will often see truth as being unfair to them)
>
> >> Denial is to choose to believe in the fantasy of a creator deity.
>
> >Denial is to disbelieve rather than to believe.
>
> I do not believe in god, and yet I am not in denial of the truth.
>
A person who is in denial is typically not aware of it.
> >Plying a trade is not the same as studying/thinking.
>
> So as a doctor you accept that you have no need to study or think?
>
No. I choose to continue studying and thinking. There are those who choose to rely solely on
continued clinical experience..
> >> No one is walking with Christ,
> >
> >Many are.
> >
> >> as in reality Christ does not exist
> >
> >According to buddha?
>
> Budda was born 500 years before Jesus.
Jesus existed from the beginning of time.
> If you equate Jesus with God, then Buddha did not accept that there was a need to believe in such
> a being. In fact belief in such a thing is pure delusion and a cause for more suffering.
This would be fiction.
In truth, our sins are the cause of our suffering. Jesus recognized this because He had no sin. The
only times He suffered during His time as a "son of man" was when He took our sins upon Himself.
First, when He fasted and suffered from hunger as Satan tempted Him. Recall that succumbing to
temptation to eat something forbidden and thereby violating God's One Commandment was how Adam and
Eve sinned . Second, when He suffered from anger at money changing being conducted at a synagogue.
Recall that the reason for the money changing was the graven images of a god-emperor on the coins.
This is a violation of the first two of God's X Commandments. Third, when He suffered from the pain
of death as a consequence of the false witnessing by men, we end up seeing many of the rest of the X
Commandments violated (III, VI, VIII, IX, X).
> >> other than as a set of projections built on interpretations picked up from the culture and
> >> environment around you over the years.
> >>
> >
> >Have you learned this from buddha?
>
> See above.
>
Yes, please do.
>
> >> >(2) Jesus Christ said as a man that He is the "Truth, the Way, and the Life" and the Son of
> >> > God.
> >>
> >> The most we can say with accuracy here is that we are implored to accept that Jesus once said
> >> these things by the writers of the gospels.
> >>
> >
> >It is so written in the Holy Bible. There are no evidence to support any assertions that He did
> >not say what has been attributed to Him in the Bible.
>
> There is no evidence to support any assertions that he did actually say what has been attributed
> to him either.
Similarly, there is no evidence to support anything spoken that you would attribute to buddha or
anyone else before the age of electronic recording devices.
> More so, there is much evidence to show that the synoptic gospels were a gradual 'patch work'
> construction by many people over the decades after Jesus died.
Does anyone have a recording of what Jesus said?
> An excellent book to read would be The Lost Gospel: The Book of Q & Christian Origins by Burton
> L. Mack.
I am familiar with the stories concerning the Book of Q.
> Here is a quote from a review - "The ideas in this book support a conclusion
In truth, ideas do not support any conclusion.
> that can also be arrived at without them, namely that the New Testament as we know it is the
> result of different groups of people, who lived in different time periods and social
> circumstances, had different objectives for writing what they wrote, and whose collective efforts
> are best characterized (as this book does) as the making of the Christian myth.
If it were simply just a myth, how would one explain the reactions of the anti-christians that you
have witnessed here at SMC?
Historical examples of myths did not encounter the opposition that Christianity encountered and
has overcome.
Do you know of any historical accounts of folks who believed caesar was a god being tracked down to
be executed?
Any worshippers of Zeus?
Any worshippers of Apollo?
Any worshippers of buddha?
> Compared to such a view, the idea that The Bible is "the infallible word of God" and that those
> who "believe" in it "have it right" while everyone who doesn't "has got it wrong", seems quite
> antiquated and naive.
An idea is either true or false.
The idea that the Bible is the word of God is true.
The idea that buddha's teachings are the word of God is false.
> Indeed, when the Christian myth is recognized as just that, it becomes the equal of other
> religious myths, and the peoples who adhere to them, equal among equals.
Good thing Christ is not a myth.
To know Christ is to know humility.
To know we are not better than our neighbor.
To know that we need Him because we are not superior.
> When the notion disappears that the Christian myth provides the ultimate context, the ultimate
> explanation, and ultimate destiny of mankind, perhaps then this world will have a better chance of
> becoming a paradise of sorts for its inhabitants."
You have only to visit China where religion is suppressed to see what kind of paradise this reviewer
envisions.
> >> >(3) His followers have testified that He is the Messiah to their deaths.
> >>
> >> This does not mean Jesus was in fact the messiah. It merely shows the strength of belief held
> >> by his followers. In the very same way look to the Palestinian suicide-bombers of today or the
> >> Islamic Jihad members, or indeed the Al Queda operatives who also exhibit the same zeal in the
> >> name of their god.
> >
> >These folks are dead. We live.
>
> Until it is your time to die as well.
>
We have eternal life through Christ.
> >> >(4) Despite (3), here we are, far greater in number and in strength.
> >>
> >> For everything there is a season. Things change. Civilisations rise, civilisations fall....
> >
> >Christianity is not a civilization. There are followers of Christ in every nation on this planet.
>
> Religions rise, religions fall...
And so truth survives myth.
> some are saying even now that Christianity is on the wane and Islam on the rise...
Not if their followers continue to commit suicide-bombings and other acts of terrorism.
> For everything there is a season.
Except truth.
> >> >(5) All who have challenged these facts, here at SMC and elsewhere, have fallen.
> >>
> >> And yet I am still standing.
>
> >You are treading water. Your raft has long been sunk.
>
> Explain exactly what you mean by this curious analogy you enjoy making so frequently?
>
You have placed your faith on the teachings of a dead man who discovered emptiness.
>
> >1-5 above are verifiable facts and not dogma.
>
> What are your criteria for what constitutes a fact?
A fact is true.
> >>
> >> >> >Is the crucifix a graven image of Christ?
> >> >>
> >> >> What do you think the crucifix signifies?
> >>
> >> >It reminds us of God's sacrifice.
> >>
> >> Ah, it fulfils the same function as the image of a Golden Calf once reminded the Israelites of
> >> Mamon on the slopes of Mount Sinai?
> >>
> >
> >No.
>
> The calf was an image of a god - Mamon. As such it was a reminder.
It served to more than remind. It became an object of worship or reverence.
>
> The crucifix (with or without a Jesus figure on) is an image of God's agency in the world - as
> such it is a reminder. It fulfils the same function.
Sorry, but it does not.
> >> And yet your God also made athiests, muslims, jews, hindus, communists etc etc....is it also no
> >> surprise their beliefs are not in accordance with your God?
> >
> >Yes. It is no surprise that they, like buddha, got lost.
> >
> >God also gave them free will to choose the wayward path.
>
> Your original point was that Buddha came to the same conclusion as God because God made Buddha.
My point is that because God made buddha, it would be expected that many of his ideas could have
come from God.
> By your logic, Buddha had free will,
He did.
> therefore his wise conclusions were of his own choosing
He could have chosen God's ideas.
> and had nothing to do with God's influence.
Almost everything that buddha was, *almost* everything that he saw, touched, tasted, or otherwise
experienced was from God. It is more than likely that buddha was influenced by God although he
turned away from Him and embraced emptiness.
The latter is free will, Mozz.
> You can't have it both ways
You can't serve God and embrace emptiness.
>
> Andrew.
>
> >> >> In psychology this is witnessed by the so called 'zealous' who try so hard to convince
> >> >> others of their beliefs they become quite agitated and angry when others show resistance.
> >> >> This is because they unconsciously are really doubting their beliefs and secretly wish to
> >> >> convince themselves.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Is that how you would explain the fact that I am neither agitated nor angry with you?
> >> >(i.e. I am secure in my beliefs and have no need to convince either myself or you)
> >>
> >> Interesting that you assume I refer to you.
>
> >I didn't.
>
> Your question 'Is that how you would explain the fact that I am neither agitated nor angry with
> you?' suggests you did.
You described that the angry and agitated behavior of "fanatics" revealed their insecurity regarding
their own beliefs. If I had assumed that you were calling me a fanatic, I would have simply told you
"I am not a fanatic."
Instead, I assumed you were not calling me a fanatic, which allows me to point out that my beliefs
in Christ are secure. How else would you explain my composure when encountering the "angry and
agitated" animosity of those who are offended by my being Christian.
> >> And yet your posts betray you.
> >
> >My posts serve to glorify God.
>
> There is no God other than that conjured in your mind by the strength of your conviction.
>
Your buddha now knows better for he now knows the truth.
> >> You still strive to convince me that you are right and I am wrong
> >
> >Simply giving you information.
>
> Propaganda.
If all you are getting from this discussion is propaganda, why are you here?
> >> (all the while unconsciously trying to reinforce your own beliefs - see your 5 points above)
> >>
> >
> >If I were insecure in my beliefs, why am I not acting as you would expect for someone who is
> >insecure is his/her beliefs?
>
> You posts betray the reality of your state of mind.
>
God would have me write truthfully.
> >Where is the "agitation" and the "anger" ?
>
> Your posts are rife with 'passive-aggressive' attempts at manipulation.
Shall I repeat the question?
> Read them back with a more open mind if you can.
>
I still see the same unanswered questions. Your not answering them is very telling and betrays your
insecurities.
> >> >Yes. Paying lip service to anyone or anything is a sign of respect especially when there is
> >> >disagreement. The servant that says "Yes, Sir" to his master when he is thinking "No, I don't
> >> >want to do this" is being respectful.
> >>
> >> This is nonsense.
> >
> >It is the truth.
> >
> >> It is not respectful to say one thing and yet mean another.
> >
> >In the relationship between a servant and his/her master, it is respectful for the servant to
> >abide by the master's wishes even if there is disagreement.
>
> So by that logic you would advocate lying to God?
Not possible. He knows what we are thinking as we are thinking it. This is why there is not an 11th
Commandment like "Thou shalt not lie to God."
> >Christ is the path to the cessation of suffering and the whole of enlightenment.
>
> The Christ portrayed in the gospels does not lead to true cessation of suffering or enlightenment.
A person who conquers suffering and achieves complete enlightenment defeats death.
Christ, as described in the Gospels, defeated death.
> He advocates that one place ones salvation in the hands of another.
Christ did more than advocate... He has saved us.
> Buddha showed that ones salvation is to be found within oneself and through ones own effort and
> responsibility one can reach nirvana.
Has Buddha ever said he reached nirvana?
> There is no need to look elsewhere.
>
Do you really believe that you do not need anyone else?
> >> You cannot seriously be saying that you believe in the literal existence of Adam and Eve?
>
> >Yes. There is actually scientific evidence at the genetic level for the existence of Eve.
>
> Can you show me this evidence?
We know the genetic sequence of the mitochondrial DNA of Eve.
If you really want the Pubmed citation, let me know. Would be more than happy to set up a
link for you.
> It seems to fly in the face of all respectable scientific opinion that I am aware of.
>
Truth is better than opinion.
> >Then what are you looking for when you come here?
>
> An opportunity to help others.
Haven't seen you contribute in this regard.
> Meditation helped me lower my blood pressure significantly and it remains low without medication.
How's your blood pressure during this discussion ?
> If anyone would like to talk about meditation techniques they could do at home I'd be happy
> to help.
>
Any studies that show meditation works independent of other lifestyle altering effects that may be
coincident with meditation ?
> >Why do you feel the need to defend aspects of Siddhartha's life?
>
> I feel it is only right to point out errors others make in ignorance of the facts regarding
> Siddhartha's life.
>
Sounds like these "errors" wound you.
> >It remains my choice to pray to God, in Christ's name, on your behalf.
>
> Thank you, but I would rather you chose to look within yourself and seek the truth.
>
Have already found the truth in Christ. Before that, nothing within me could compare.
> "Through many a birth I wandered in this endless cycle of births and deaths,
And so he (we) suffered during our time here on earth witnessing many births and deaths.
> seeking, but not finding, the builder of the house.
God, the Father/Creator ("builder of the house"), is too big to be taken in by our eyes.
> Sorrowful is it to be born again and again. O house-builder! you are seen.
Not sure who buddha saw here. It was not God.
> You shall build no house again All your rafters are broken. Your ridge pole is shattered.
The universe remains as it was.
> My mind has attained the Unconditioned.
Sounds like a delusion.
> Achieved is the end of craving".
In a word: denial.
> Here the Buddha explained how rebirth entails suffering. Through many lives He wandered and
> suffered, and searched for the architect of this body (the 'house'). In His final birth, He
> discovered that the creator or architect was not an external being but was man's own
> internal nature.
When was this "final birth" ?
> This elusive architect is Craving or Attachment, a self created force latent in all.
>
So you believe in self-creation?
> May all beings find true happiness.
>
> Mozz x
Truth is better.
You remain in my prayers, neighbor.
Servant to the humblest person in the universe,
Andrew
--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
**
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