What percentage of a cholesterol decrease can be attributed to statins ?

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Owen Lowe said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

The bigger concern is the price of the weight loss.

Yeah, all those cardiologists, statin makers, coronary surgery units --
out of work. 😉

Speaking as a cardiologist, I see disproportionately more advanced disease
in young people who have low-carbed. If everyone stopped low-carbing,
cardiologists, statin makers, open-heart centers would be less busy

instead

Quoted message said:

of more.

Pure [censored].

As a cardiologist, you must have some data BEFORE the young people started
low-carb diets and compared to afterwards. If you have such data PUBLISH it
in scientific journals, otherwise keep your mouth shut. You do not appear
to have the necessary skills to speak as a scientists.

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not all LC dieting is the same. And what doctors (and all of us) "know"
firsthand often turns out to be wrong when a careful study is finally done.

Agree. However, such studies will not change observations.

Well, there's a problem with observations: there's really no control and no
matched groups and no randomization, etc. Inferring the real cause of a
patient's CAD and saying it was due to low-carbing is okay for a little while,
and not worth much. After a decade or two it seems stupid.

I imagine you don't see patient's who were on Ornish or Pritikin prior to CAD
because those diets/lifestyles require enormous committment--something most of
us don't have when healthy. And--if followed--a big if--they produce weight
loss in overweight people and surely do reduce the risk of CAD.

There are people who go on Atkin's and mostly eat bacon and cheese. Since
Atkin's seems to attract a disproportionate share of the truly obese, these
people may STILL be less likely to develop CAD after they lose 100-200 lb...or
they may not. Could they have lost that weight on Pritikin? Well, we dunno how
the diets compare in terms of real world success. The data just don't exist.

And Atkin's doesn't require eating fatty meats and dairy. One can cut carbs
during the initiation and then add back most of the unprocessed carbs. One can
eat lean meat, chicken, fish, non-fat dairy, and use fish, nuts and olive oil
for fats. And it is still Atkin's. My guess is that the fish and nuts person
will have a much lower risk of CAD than the bacon and cheese person, but both
are on Atkin's.

And then there are people like me who--based on their reading of research
papers--went on reduced carb diets to improve HDL and lower TG. Those were my
lipid problem areas. I eat much less carbohydrate than the typical American,
but MORE fresh vegetables and fruit. I just eat no potatoes or refined grains.
And I eat more seafood and use mostly olive oil for dressings.

Cutting the high-glycemic carbs and/or boosting the monosaturates from olive
oil and almonds and such definitely boosted my HDL and dramatically lowered my
TG. My CAD risk factors improved a great deal right away, and then I slowly
lost weight (which I have now kept off effortlessly for over a year) which
made my lipids even better.

So, does low-carbing work and does it work better than low fat diets or any
other diets? Does it have a better or worse effect on CAD risk? Do people
manage to adhere to a low-card diet better than a low-fat diet? Do these
questions have different answers for different people? Etc.

We don't know because the studies don't exist. Arguing that the data do exist
is counterproductive.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA

Jim Chinnis said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Jim Chinnis said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

>> "CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations for or
>> against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among participants
>> older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets of 20 g/d
>> or less of carbohydrates."
>>
>> NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......
>>
>
>Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.

No matter how much faith you have that a low carbohydrate diet fails in the
long term, and no matter how often you claim this has been established in
published studies, the latter is not the case.

However, the former is the case. I see patients that have failed LC dieting all
the time, so I do *know* firsthand.

Actually, my use of the word, "latter" referred to your claim that "this has
been established in published studies." Your firsthand "knowing" doesn't make
the cut.

Here's a review for you:

http://tinyurl.com/q9jh

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Jim Chinnis said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Jim Chinnis wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in part:
>
> >> "CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to make recommendations for or
> >> against the use of low-carbohydrate diets, particularly among participants
> >> older than age 50 years, for use longer than 90 days, or for diets of 20 g/d
> >> or less of carbohydrates."
> >>
> >> NOTE: the conclusions state OR AGAINST .......
> >>
> >
> >Ok, one neutral in a sea of negatives. No positives.
>
> No matter how much faith you have that a low carbohydrate diet fails in the
> long term, and no matter how often you claim this has been established in
> published studies, the latter is not the case.
>

However, the former is the case. I see patients that have failed LC dieting all
the time, so I do *know* firsthand.

Actually, my use of the word, "latter" referred to your claim that "this has
been established in published studies." Your firsthand "knowing" doesn't make
the cut.

Here's a review for you:

http://tinyurl.com/q9jh

That doesn't allow any separation of cause and effect; it's not a controlled
trial of any sort and doesn't review controlled trials. And that's the way it
is. We need better data.

A few examples from the conclusions section:

"The diet quality as measured by HEI was highest for the high carbohydrate
groups and lowest for the low carbohydrate groups."

Well, the HEI (Healthy Eating Index) is an index--a stab at how healthy a diet
is--not really a measure of outcomes or even CAD risk factors.

"The BMIs were significantly lower for men and women on the high carbohydrate
diet; the highest BMIs were noted for those on a low carbohydrate diet."

Probably lots of obese folks losing weight with Atkin's. Which came first, the
diet or the big BMI? Did they go on Atkin's because they were obese, or get
obese because they went on Atkin's? I suspect the former. No way to tell.

Etc. A controlled long-term randomized trial is needed. One has not been done.

--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill,
Both are readily available on the net for a nominal fee - far less than any
one of the over 52 appointments with specialists and diagnostic clinical
tests my husband went through last year. I invite you to purchase the full
study and evaluate it yourself.

I am unable to publish a copy in full when it is available for a fee, and
any quote I pull out will be immediately second-guessed by those who are
threatened by the idea that some people's lives, health, and economic
well-being have been destroyed by these drugs.

I will try to obtain a copy. In the meantime, in my view, your contention that
statins are known to have a negative cognitive impact remains uproven. (Which,
of course, is different than incorrect.) Note, I have changed the subject so
this discussion does not get lost in others.

Bill

Blue Mu_n said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

Where is the evidence for or against your TPD?

Sitting with the hundreds of people, many who have given their
testimonials right here on SMC.

Oh, look. No data and he criticizes Atkins for the same offense. So
the evidence is "sitting with the hundreds of people." You say it and,
in spite of your record of being a liar, for some reason you expect to
be believed. Good thinking.

Many have given testimonials here? How many? Who are they? When did
that happen? Exclude the sock puppets you like to create.

They wouldn't be the same "testimonials" that appear on the web site
below, would they? Funny how somehow that list includes me and I think
it's preposterous and wouldn't endorse it under any circumstances.
Very credible list.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Has the medical community
accepted and endorsed it?

What?

Exactly. What, indeed.

Please, everybody, go look at the web site and ask two questions: 1)
does one size fit everybody no matter how big or small they are? and,
2) does it never matter *what* dieters eat; only the weight of it matters?

The medical community wouldn't touch this dietary turkey with a
10-foot pole. No studies. No evidence. No data. Only the word of a
demonstrated liar.

And the answer to such questions from the proponents is, "What?"

Quoted message said:

http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp

Pastorio

Blue Mu_n said:

Jim Chinnis said:

Quoted message said:

Most everyone except we have seen a remarkable amount of people
successful on the 2PDiet. which makes it the glowing exception to the
commercial diet rule.

Sounds positively identical to every commercial diet.

What?

Slow down, Jim, it's Mu_lch you're talking to. You keep stumping him.

Pastorio

Blue Mu_n said:

Jim Chinnis said:

The truth I believe is that no long-term controlled study of low-carb diets
has been published. I remain an agnostic as to how much carb is best in the
diet.

Others here--most notably Dr. Chung--have disagreed.

No one has cited a long-term controlled study of low-carb diets, however.

Then what do we have as the next best solution?

There is no "next best solution." Either there's hard data or it's all
your usual smoke and mirrors. There are more and more studies being
done regarding carbs, protein, fats and their effects.

There don't seem to be any studies dealing with only the weight of the
food. Researchers are smarter than to fall for that. *What* people eat
matters. What each individual's nutritive needs are matters. A scale
is only one poor instrument in a necessary battery of others. One size
can't fit all.

Quoted message said:

How's this one. Listen to a cardiologist who deal with the ill effects
of low carb on a daily basis.

No good?

No good.

Gotta have credibility before it even begins to count. Gotta show
numbers and actual studies if you want the "opinion" to become
anything approaching believability. No facts, no acceptance. Your
hollow boasting and trolling won't convert your obviously shallow
opinion into truth.

See how simple? This time I wasn't referring to your IQ. Although now
that I mention it...

Pastorio

Wed, 08 Oct 2003 17:29:14 -0400 in article
<[email hidden]> Blue Mu_n <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 12:33:48 -0700, Owen Lowe <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

LC - it's not just for weight loss anymore.

Correct, it's good for those who live in a fairyland where bacon, eggs
and steak are oh so good for them.

Low carb does not necessarily mean more saturated fatty acids. IMHO additional
fat could be obtained mainly form monounsaturated fatty acids with some omega-3
also thrown in. As for protein, high protein vegetables and nuts as well as
(fatty) fish could be consumed.

--
Matti Narkia

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> news:[email hidden]...
> > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> >
> > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]>

wrote in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> message
> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Blue Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"
> <[email hidden]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > > > > > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not

been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more

Quoted message said:

> data
> > > in
> > > > > 30
> > > > > > >years?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and

any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> studies
> > > > > > of his patient population.
> > > > >
> > > > > Care to cite references?
> > > >
> > > > If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such

studies,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one

Quoted message said:

> would
> > > > expect that there would be no references to be found.
> > >
> > > Were are the references that state he refused to participate in

studies?

Quoted message said:

> > >
>
> Don't duck the above question, Andy. Where are the references that

prove

Quoted message said:

> that he refused to participate in studies.

Don't know of any.

Then you were caught not telling the truth, weren't you Andy.

You caught me writing truthfully again. Congrats.

You make serious allegations against a person and then admit you can't back
it up.
If you were a truthful individual, you would not make allegations you can
not back up.
You appear to have the characteristics of a sick individual and a liar.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You stated he refused to participate in studies and now you can not back

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your statement.

Hardly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I am sure you are aware of lible
> laws - you seem very interested in them.

Enough to spell it correctly.

Oh, I am sure you are. You seem to spend as much or more time

threatening

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

law suits than anything else.

Sorry you feel threatened.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> NOTE: Refusing to turn over an
> individuals private medical records is NOT refusing to participate

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> studies.

Is there documentation that Dr. Atkins refused on the grounds of

patient

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

privacy?

Don't need any.

Then why bring it up?

Quoted message said:

It is the law.

It is now but wasn't then.

Quoted message said:

But then again, I don't suppose YOU let the
law bother you.

Writing truthfully is that liberating.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]>

wrote in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > message
> > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "Blue Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"
> > <[email hidden]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > > > > > > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not

been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more
> > data
> > > > in
> > > > > > 30
> > > > > > > >years?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and

any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > studies
> > > > > > > of his patient population.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Care to cite references?
> > > > >
> > > > > If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such

studies,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one
> > would
> > > > > expect that there would be no references to be found.
> > > >
> > > > Were are the references that state he refused to participate in
studies?
> > > >
> >
> > Don't duck the above question, Andy. Where are the references that
prove
> > that he refused to participate in studies.
>
> Don't know of any.

Then you were caught not telling the truth, weren't you Andy.

You caught me writing truthfully again. Congrats.

You make serious allegations against a person and then admit you can't back
it up.

Reread the thread. You may certainly provide a Google link where I libel
anyone.

Quoted message said:

If you were a truthful individual, you would not make allegations you can
not back up.

Thank you for proving that I have been truthful.

Quoted message said:

You appear to have the characteristics of a sick individual and a liar.

Go ahead and provide the Google links to back up your allegations.

Try writing truthfully for once, it should be very liberating for you.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Bill

The Muldoon paper is at
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7277/11
and the Gaist paper at
http://213.4.18.135/87.pdf

Cheers, PeteC

Bill said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill,
Both are readily available on the net for a nominal fee - far less than any
one of the over 52 appointments with specialists and diagnostic clinical
tests my husband went through last year. I invite you to purchase the full
study and evaluate it yourself.

I am unable to publish a copy in full when it is available for a fee, and
any quote I pull out will be immediately second-guessed by those who are
threatened by the idea that some people's lives, health, and economic
well-being have been destroyed by these drugs.

I will try to obtain a copy. In the meantime, in my view, your contention that
statins are known to have a negative cognitive impact remains uproven. (Which,
of course, is different than incorrect.) Note, I have changed the subject so
this discussion does not get lost in others.

Bill

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 00:42:12 -0400, Bob Pastorio <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There is no...

Until you answer the questions regarding your quad bypass, your
smoking, your obesity and why, with all the information known to you,
by your own admission, you nearly killed yourself with a lousy diet,
gluttony, excesses and no exercise, you can keep your hands off your
keyboard and in your pants.

It will be the only thing you will have left to play with, Cheffie.
I'm no longer interested in your pitiful TROLLING and useless
demagoguery.

Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Paul E. Lehmann said:

Quoted message said:

Sitting with the hundreds of people, many who have given their
testimonials right here on SMC.

HUNDREDS???
References please.

Read again. Google away. Look at the website.
Do your own frigin homework.

Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 00:12:01 -0400, Bob Pastorio <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Oh, look.

Oh yes.

Once again...

Until you answer the questions regarding your quad bypass, your
smoking, your obesity and why, with all the information known to you,
by your own admission, you nearly killed yourself with a lousy diet,
gluttony, excesses and no exercise, you can keep your hands off your
keyboard and in your pants.

It will be the only thing you will have left to play with, Cheffie.
I'm no longer interested in your pitiful TROLLING and useless
demagoguery.

Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Correct, it's good for those who live in a fairyland where bacon, eggs
and steak are oh so good for them.

On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:34:18 GMT, Matti Narkia <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Low carb does not necessarily mean more saturated fatty acids.

Ime, that is exactly what happens to the majority of lo carbers. You
need to read alt.support.siet.low-carb for a few years like I have.

Quoted message said:

IMHO additional
fat could be obtained mainly form monounsaturated fatty acids with some omega-3
also thrown in. As for protein, high protein vegetables and nuts as well as
(fatty) fish could be consumed.

Yeah, but that ain't the reality of what is happening.

Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Somehow my previous message on this got lost. The Gaist Paper was interesting.

I think Sharon was referring to a different Muldoon paper:

Effects of lovastatin on cognitive function and psychological well-being**1

Matthew F. Muldoon MD, MPH, a, Steven D. Barger PhDb, Christopher M. Ryan
PhDc, Janine D. Flory PhDd, John P. Lehoczky PhDe, Karen A. Matthews PhDc and
Stephen B. Manuck PhDd

a Center for Clinical Pharmacology (MFM), University of Pittsburgh School of
Medicine, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA
c Department of Psychiatry (CMR, KAM), University of Pittsburgh School of
Medicine, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
b Department of Psychology (SDB), Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff,
Arizona, USA
d Behavioral Physiology Laboratory (JDF, SBM), Department of Psychology,
University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
e Department of Statistics (JPL), Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh,
Pennsylvania, USA

Received 17 May 1999; revised 6 January 2000; accepted 6 January 2000.
Available online 5 May 2000.

Abstract
PURPOSE: Animal research and cross-sectional studies suggest that serum lipid
concentrations may influence cognitive function, mood, and behavior, but few
clinical trials have studied these effects.

SUBJECTS AND METHODS: In this double-blind investigation, 209 generally
healthy adults with a serum low-density-lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol level of
160 mg/dL or higher were randomly assigned to 6-month treatment with
lovastatin (20 mg) or placebo. Assessments of neuropsychological performance,
depression, hostility, and quality of life were conducted at baseline and at
the end of the treatment period. Summary effect sizes were estimated as z
scores on a standard deviation (SD) scale.

RESULTS: Placebo-treated subjects improved between baseline and posttreatment
periods on neuropsychological tests in all five performance domains,
consistent with the effects of practice on test performance (all P <0.04),
whereas those treated with lovastatin improved only on tests of memory recall
(P = 0.03). Comparisons of the changes in performance between placebo- and
lovastatin-treated subjects revealed small, but statistically significant,
differences for tests of attention (z score = 0.18; 95% confidence interval
(CI), 0.06 to 0.31; P = 0.005) and psychomotor speed (z score = 0.17; 95% CI,
0.05 to 0.28; P = 0.004) that were consistent with greater improvement in the
placebo group. Psychological well-being, as measured several ways, was not
affected by lovastatin.

CONCLUSION: Treatment of hypercholesterolemia with lovastatin did not cause
psychological distress or substantially alter cognitive function. Treatment
did result in small performance decrements on neuropsychological tests of
attention and psychomotor speed, the clinical importance of which is
uncertain.

Bill

"Pete Connors" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill

The Muldoon paper is at
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/322/7277/11
and the Gaist paper at
http://213.4.18.135/87.pdf

Cheers, PeteC

Bill said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bill,
Both are readily available on the net for a nominal fee - far less than

any

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one of the over 52 appointments with specialists and diagnostic clinical
tests my husband went through last year. I invite you to purchase the

full

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

study and evaluate it yourself.

I am unable to publish a copy in full when it is available for a fee, and
any quote I pull out will be immediately second-guessed by those who are
threatened by the idea that some people's lives, health, and economic
well-being have been destroyed by these drugs.

I will try to obtain a copy. In the meantime, in my view, your contention

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

statins are known to have a negative cognitive impact remains uproven.

(Which,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of course, is different than incorrect.) Note, I have changed the subject

so

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

this discussion does not get lost in others.

Bill

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> news:[email hidden]...
> > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> >
> > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

> > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]>

wrote in

Quoted message said:

> > > message
> > > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Blue Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > > > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"
> > > <[email hidden]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > > > > > > > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not

been

Quoted message said:

> more
> > > data
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > 30
> > > > > > > > >years?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

any

Quoted message said:

> > > studies
> > > > > > > > of his patient population.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Care to cite references?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such

studies,

Quoted message said:

> one
> > > would
> > > > > > expect that there would be no references to be found.
> > > > >
> > > > > Were are the references that state he refused to participate

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> studies?
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Don't duck the above question, Andy. Where are the references

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> prove
> > > that he refused to participate in studies.
> >
> > Don't know of any.
>
> Then you were caught not telling the truth, weren't you Andy.

You caught me writing truthfully again. Congrats.

You make serious allegations against a person and then admit you can't

back

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it up.

Reread the thread. You may certainly provide a Google link where I libel
anyone.

Quoted message said:

If you were a truthful individual, you would not make allegations you

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not back up.

Thank you for proving that I have been truthful.

Quoted message said:

You appear to have the characteristics of a sick individual and a liar.

Go ahead and provide the Google links to back up your allegations.

Try writing truthfully for once, it should be very liberating for you.

You would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit you on the ass.

You stated "Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and
any studies of his patient population.

I then asked you "Where are the references that prove that he refused to
participate in studies."

Your response - "Don't know of any.

The ONLY honest thing you said was "Don't know of any"

To infer that a medical professional REFUSED to participate data collections
or studies is a very serious allegation.

All the above should be very interesting to those who take your word without
question.
It is obvious that you make statements that you apparently pull out of your
ass because you can't back them up. Undoubtedly, many of your statements
fall in this category.

"Full Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

Quoted message said:

Sitting with the hundreds of people, many who have given their
testimonials right here on SMC.

HUNDREDS???
References please.

Read again. Google away. Look at the website.
Do your own frigin homework.

Lazy, aren't you.
References please.

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > news:[email hidden]...
> > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message
> > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]>
wrote in
> > > > message
> > > > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > > > "Paul E. Lehmann" wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Blue Mu_n" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:[email hidden]...
> > > > > > > > > On Mon, 6 Oct 2003 22:29:21 -0500, "Julianne"
> > > > <[email hidden]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One thing to consider is that Atkins
> > > > > > > > > >has been around for over 30 years. Why has there not
been
> > more
> > > > data
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > > 30
> > > > > > > > > >years?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Atkins refused to participate in any data collections

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

any
> > > > studies
> > > > > > > > > of his patient population.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Care to cite references?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If the late Dr. Atkins' refused to participate in such
studies,
> > one
> > > > would
> > > > > > > expect that there would be no references to be found.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Were are the references that state he refused to participate

in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > studies?
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Don't duck the above question, Andy. Where are the references

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > prove
> > > > that he refused to participate in studies.
> > >
> > > Don't know of any.
> >
> > Then you were caught not telling the truth, weren't you Andy.
>
> You caught me writing truthfully again. Congrats.

You make serious allegations against a person and then admit you can't

back

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it up.

Reread the thread. You may certainly provide a Google link where I libel
anyone.

Quoted message said:

If you were a truthful individual, you would not make allegations you

can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not back up.

Thank you for proving that I have been truthful.

Quoted message said:

You appear to have the characteristics of a sick individual and a liar.

Go ahead and provide the Google links to back up your allegations.

Try writing truthfully for once, it should be very liberating for you.

You would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit you on the ass.

You stated "Atkins refused to participate in any data collections and
any studies of his patient population.

Where?

Quoted message said:

I then asked you "Where are the references that prove that he refused to
participate in studies."

You did not ask me. I did observe that your question answered itself.

Quoted message said:

Your response - "Don't know of any.

That was not my initial response.

Quoted message said:

The ONLY honest thing you said was "Don't know of any"

To infer that a medical professional REFUSED to participate data collections
or studies is a very serious allegation.

Actually, it is the medical professional's perogative to refuse.

Just as it is the medical professional's family perogative to refuse an autopsy
to investigate said medical professional's death.

Quoted message said:

All the above should be very interesting to those who take your word without
question.

I'm sure they appreciate your proving that I have been writing truthfully.

Quoted message said:

It is obvious that you make statements that you apparently pull out of your
ass because you can't back them up.

Truth has this way of backing itself up. You should try it.

Quoted message said:

Undoubtedly, many of your statements
fall in this category.

I have and will continue to write truthfully. You really should try to do the
same.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/