Witness to an accident.

[Fritz M]

Leo Lichtman wrote regarding mountain biking:
> The rider learns NOT to overcorrect for things which
> turn out okay, and learns to react quickly and spontaneously to all
kinds of
> input from the bike and from the human "inertial guidance system."

I discovered lots of new skills when I started mountain biking, but I'm
not sure that's one of them. Several thousand miles of road cycling
also teaches you not to spaz when you hit a bump or sand or tree branch
or squirrel. I suppose one becomes more aware of these kinds of things.
For example, I make a conscious effort to slide back on my saddle when
I brake hard on a downhill.

Speaking of crashes, I did a 0 mph crash today and I've been riding
clipless since the late 80s sometime. Instead of riding all the way to
a parking lot entrance, I hopped the curb, cut across sidewalk and
grass, hopped down another curb into a busy parking lot, squeezing
between a couple of parked cars. I tried to stand while waiting for
traffic to clear but was worried about bumping a car when I twisted my
handlebar. I ended up toppling sideways and bumped into a Subaru
anyway. Very embarassing to me.

RFM

 

[gds]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> To look at it a slightly different way, there are 15 million cars in
> the UK and 5 million insurance claims annually. My crash rate is
> currently running considerably lower than once per three years, so
> that makes me less likely to crash than a car driver.
>
> Guy
> --
>
While I agre with your position that (bike)crashes are not really all
that common your statistics don't really prove that. A better
denominator than the number of vehicles wold be something like vehicle
miles driven. There has to be some accounting for how much travel takes
place and not just the number of cars.

And claims may not be a very good proxy for crashes of auto vs. bikes
in the numerator either. A very minor fender bender pulling out of a
parking space will result in a claim. It really isn't a crash. And
certainly we have all had our bikes roll into another, or fall over
when we thought it well propped-- its just that the 20 lb bike doesn't
cause the same damage as a 3000 lb car.

On a per mile basis the safety of auto traffic would look much better.

Even on 9/11 air traffic was statistically pretty safe.

 

[jj]

On 20 May 2005 12:46:32 -0700, "Fritz M" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Leo Lichtman wrote regarding mountain biking:
>> The rider learns NOT to overcorrect for things which
>> turn out okay, and learns to react quickly and spontaneously to all
>kinds of
>> input from the bike and from the human "inertial guidance system."
>
>I discovered lots of new skills when I started mountain biking, but I'm
>not sure that's one of them. Several thousand miles of road cycling
>also teaches you not to spaz when you hit a bump or sand or tree branch
>or squirrel. I suppose one becomes more aware of these kinds of things.
>For example, I make a conscious effort to slide back on my saddle when
>I brake hard on a downhill.
>
>Speaking of crashes, I did a 0 mph crash today and I've been riding
>clipless since the late 80s sometime. Instead of riding all the way to
>a parking lot entrance, I hopped the curb, cut across sidewalk and
>grass, hopped down another curb into a busy parking lot, squeezing
>between a couple of parked cars. I tried to stand while waiting for
>traffic to clear but was worried about bumping a car when I twisted my
>handlebar. I ended up toppling sideways and bumped into a Subaru
>anyway. Very embarassing to me.
>
>RFM

Only if you set off the car alarm when you bumped the Sub.

jj

 

[Zoot Katz]

Fri, 20 May 2005 15:57:15 +0100,
<[email protected]>,
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote:

>The UK's largest cycling organisation surveyed its members on their
>crash frequency and injury rate. It found they suffered an injury
>serious enough to need treatment on average once per three thousand
>person years of cycling.

I logged ~30 person years bicycling before becoming a non-helmeted
hospital emergency data point.
--
zk

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On 20 May 2005 08:32:14 -0700, "Fritz M" <[email protected]> wrote in
message <[email protected]>:

>What are bike handling skills that translate from mountain biking to
>road cycling?

Ask Lance - he gave a fine demonstration in the 2003 Tour

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On 20 May 2005 08:38:03 -0700, "Fritz M" <[email protected]> wrote in
message <[email protected]>:

>> It found they suffered an injury
>> serious enough to need treatment on average once per three thousand
>> person years of cycling.

>"person years" is reduntant in the context of bicycling injuries, given
>that we're talking about injury to the person rather to a
>multiple-person bicycle. You can't have multiple people assigned to the
>same injury on a person.

Riding years then. Whatever, you get the drift.

And don't get me started on tandems...

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On 20 May 2005 12:54:05 -0700, "gds" <[email protected]> wrote in
message <[email protected]>:

>While I agre with your position that (bike)crashes are not really all
>that common your statistics don't really prove that. A better
>denominator than the number of vehicles wold be something like vehicle
>miles driven. There has to be some accounting for how much travel takes
>place and not just the number of cars.

And those figures for the US make cycling about as safe as driving,
same in France, rather more dangerous in the UK (but distorted in
every case by the fact that drivers spend a lot of time on the kinds
of roads cyclists generally don't use, and do longer journeys on
average).

Risk per journey is probably the best denominator, but even then it is
not extraordinary

Cycling really is pretty safe. It must be - the benefits are
calculated to outweigh the risks 20:1.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

 

[Jim Smith]

[email protected] writes:

> A few years ago i had dental surgery, and afterwards I had a black
> eye. Not a big puffy shiner but it looked like the black stuff
> football players put on under their eyes. I guess it was just from the
> trauma of the surgery. I didn't really think anything of it but I
> noticed people looking at me oddly, and I realized they thought I was
> a victim of abuse or something. SO I began to use concealer until it
> went away.

David Sedaris tells a story of his sister Amy going out in puplic with
make-up which makes it look as though she has black eyes, a fat lip,
and stiches. When the occasional person would ask "what happend?" she
would smile as brightly as possible and reply: "I'm in love! can you
believe it? I'm finaly, totaly, in love. And you know what? It feels
great!"

 

[[email protected]]

Neil Brooks wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>
> >But if we move the question out of the binary "yes/no" realm, I
think
> >you'll find lots of adults for whom "crashing" by any definition is
> >extremely rare. I'm one of them. If you leave aside the off-road
> >stuff where I purposely test my nimbleness, my count is: One
on-road,
> >moving fall since before 1972. And that fall was at walking speed,
on
> >a super-steep gravelly downhill.
>
> I think another critical component to the "will you or won't you?"
> question is: Where do you ride?
>
> Bustling Southern California (or ~), with blissfully unaware drivers,
> /may/ be a different environment with significantly higher risks than
> Ohio or rural Virginia (or ~).

Perhaps. But I'm generally unimpressed by some people's statements
like "_MY_ riding area is _really_ dangerous."

I've biked in nearly every state, in dozens of major cities, and in
several foreign countries over a period of over 35 years of adult
riding. I won't deny that some roads are better than others; but I've
still managed to avoid the tragedies that worry so many people. I just
don't think competent cycling is dangerous.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[Jeff Starr]

On 20 May 2005 15:37:22 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>

>I've biked in nearly every state, in dozens of major cities, and in
>several foreign countries over a period of over 35 years of adult
>riding. I won't deny that some roads are better than others; but I've
>still managed to avoid the tragedies that worry so many people. I just
>don't think competent cycling is dangerous.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

I think the word "competent says it all.
So, have you done any riding in Wisconsin? Milwaukee in particular?
I'm not saying it is a dangerous place, just wondering if you made it
to my great state.

Two things I think help, is the obvious experience and then a level of
cautous confidence. I found when I first got back into riding in 2002,
I preferred the MUPs in my area. I felt safer without the cars near
me. Only on weekends were they busy with people walking, etc. Now the
very same MUP, I stay off of and take the road until I have no choice.
There is a short distance where the MUP connects two parkways. We do
have another section of what is called the Oak Leaf Trail, that is a
MUP, but I seldom see anyone, but another bicyclist. That one also
connects different parkways and I still enjoy occassionally.

I think MUPS are a good place for people to gain some riding time,
maybe work on basic skills. After that, the roadways are no longer
seem overly dangerous.

Since 2002, with almost 7000 miles, I have had one accident, when an
old lady made a u-turn, right in front of me. As to falling down, I
have never fell, because I forgot to unclip. I fell one time while
climbing a hill and while shifting down to my smallest chainring, the
chain came of to the inside. It was an Arte Johnson moment. Some would
say, I'm just very lucky, but I believe that I am very careful. I put
a Jump Stop on the bike, so that the chain won't derail again.


Life is Good!
Jeff

 

[Bill Sornson]

Jim Smith wrote:
> [email protected] writes:
>
>> A few years ago i had dental surgery, and afterwards I had a black
>> eye. Not a big puffy shiner but it looked like the black stuff
>> football players put on under their eyes. I guess it was just from
>> the trauma of the surgery. I didn't really think anything of it but I
>> noticed people looking at me oddly, and I realized they thought I was
>> a victim of abuse or something. SO I began to use concealer until it
>> went away.
>
> David Sedaris tells a story of his sister Amy going out in puplic with
> make-up which makes it look as though she has black eyes, a fat lip,
> and stiches. When the occasional person would ask "what happend?" she
> would smile as brightly as possible and reply: "I'm in love! can you
> believe it? I'm finaly, totaly, in love. And you know what? It feels
> great!"

So making light of battering is supposed to be amusing?

Sorry, don't get it.

 

[Bill Baka]

Leo Lichtman wrote:
> "Fritz M" wrote: (clip) What are bike handling skills that translate from
> mountain biking to road cycling?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> A road bike generally moves in a sweeping straight or curved line, with both
> tires firmly in contact with pavement. A mountain bike encounters the type
> of terrain in which those conditions are not present. Either wheel may lose
> traction, the front wheel may lift, the front wheel may be guided by the
> trail surface, etc. The rider learns NOT to overcorrect for things which
> turn out okay, and learns to react quickly and spontaneously to all kinds of
> input from the bike and from the human "inertial guidance system."
>
>
I can testify to that. You have to know when to slow down even when
going straight since some roads/paths will take you down no matter what
your skill level. It helps to have been on the trail at least once so
those big holes or washouts are not too big a surprise. Blasting
downhill at 25 MPH (slow on pavement) and hitting a blind left with
washboard ripples, rocks, and holes can ruin your whole day. You also
need to develop some immunity to the bashing imposed on your wrists by
a bit of nasty road. For the rear you can always stand up on a hard tail.
I have never seen a rear suspension that did me any good, but that is
only me.
Bill Baka

 

[Jim Smith]

"Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> writes:

> Jim Smith wrote:
>> [email protected] writes:
>>
>>> A few years ago i had dental surgery, and afterwards I had a black
>>> eye. Not a big puffy shiner but it looked like the black stuff
>>> football players put on under their eyes. I guess it was just from
>>> the trauma of the surgery. I didn't really think anything of it but I
>>> noticed people looking at me oddly, and I realized they thought I was
>>> a victim of abuse or something. SO I began to use concealer until it
>>> went away.
>>
>> David Sedaris tells a story of his sister Amy going out in puplic with
>> make-up which makes it look as though she has black eyes, a fat lip,
>> and stiches. When the occasional person would ask "what happend?" she
>> would smile as brightly as possible and reply: "I'm in love! can you
>> believe it? I'm finaly, totaly, in love. And you know what? It feels
>> great!"
>
> So making light of battering is supposed to be amusing?
>
> Sorry, don't get it.

Well, some people don't think "Lolita" is a funny book either. They
are wrong, of course.

 

[Bill Baka]

[email protected] wrote:
> Neil Brooks wrote:
>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>But if we move the question out of the binary "yes/no" realm, I
>
> think
>
>>>you'll find lots of adults for whom "crashing" by any definition is
>>>extremely rare. I'm one of them. If you leave aside the off-road
>>>stuff where I purposely test my nimbleness, my count is: One
>
> on-road,
>
>>>moving fall since before 1972. And that fall was at walking speed,
>
> on
>
>>>a super-steep gravelly downhill.
>>
>>I think another critical component to the "will you or won't you?"
>>question is: Where do you ride?
>>
>>Bustling Southern California (or ~), with blissfully unaware drivers,
>>/may/ be a different environment with significantly higher risks than
>>Ohio or rural Virginia (or ~).
>
>
> Perhaps. But I'm generally unimpressed by some people's statements
> like "_MY_ riding area is _really_ dangerous."
>
> I've biked in nearly every state, in dozens of major cities, and in
> several foreign countries over a period of over 35 years of adult
> riding. I won't deny that some roads are better than others; but I've
> still managed to avoid the tragedies that worry so many people. I just
> don't think competent cycling is dangerous.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
Stated like one absurdly lucky SOB. That kind of confidence probably
will get you killed someday, even though you may be riding perfectly
legally. Competent cycling is not dangerous but when in the presence of
incompetent motorists it gets real dangerous. 5 years ago if I had
claimed the lane as so many like to put it I would have been killed by
an oblivious punk in a foreign pickup with a "No Fear" stick on in his
rear window. As it was I was riding on the last inch of pavement
available and he still hit my elbow with his outside rear view mirror,
breaking it and bruising my elbow quite painfully. If I could have
caught the little ******* be would have had to remove the "No fear"
sticker with the arm I didn't rip off. You can be perfectly legal and
still perfectly dead. Did I mention there was no oncoming traffic and
the kid could have used the other lane and missed me by at least ten
feet? Bad drivers suck, but they are out there.
Bill Baka

 

[Jeff Starr]

On Sat, 21 May 2005 01:09:10 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:


>>
>> David Sedaris tells a story of his sister Amy going out in puplic with
>> make-up which makes it look as though she has black eyes, a fat lip,
>> and stiches. When the occasional person would ask "what happend?" she
>> would smile as brightly as possible and reply: "I'm in love! can you
>> believe it? I'm finaly, totaly, in love. And you know what? It feels
>> great!"
>
>So making light of battering is supposed to be amusing?
>
>Sorry, don't get it.
>
I'm surprised, it's satire.

Apparently you aren't familiar with Amy Sedaris.


Life is Good!
Jeff

 

[[email protected]]

Bill Baka wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:

> >
> > I've biked in nearly every state, in dozens of major cities, and in
> > several foreign countries over a period of over 35 years of adult
> > riding. I won't deny that some roads are better than others; but
I've
> > still managed to avoid the tragedies that worry so many people. I
just
> > don't think competent cycling is dangerous.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> Stated like one absurdly lucky SOB. That kind of confidence probably
> will get you killed someday, even though you may be riding perfectly
> legally. Competent cycling is not dangerous but when in the presence
of
> incompetent motorists it gets real dangerous.

Bill, sometimes I get sympathetic about others picking on you. But
eventually, you come up with an asinine statement that justifies
everything they say.

How many miles in how many cities do I have to ride to prove cycling is
not dangerous? How much data do I have to provide?

Competent cycling includes watching for incompetent motorists. But
even _average_ cycling - which, BTW, I do not consider competent - is
not unusually dangerous.

You can point to a scary incident you've had cycling. Big deal.
Almost everyone can point to a similarly scary incident they've had
while driving, yet we don't have motoring enthusiasts running around
wringing their hands in fear.

I'll never understand what it is about some dedicated cyclists that
make them disparage their beloved activity. And I find it especially
baffling when those doing the whining are supposedly math competent.

Look at the data. Start with
http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/SafetyQuiz.htm
and read some of the papers cited.

And stop whining.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[Bill Sornson]

Jeff Starr wrote:
> On Sat, 21 May 2005 01:09:10 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> David Sedaris tells a story of his sister Amy going out in puplic
>>> with make-up which makes it look as though she has black eyes, a
>>> fat lip, and stiches. When the occasional person would ask "what
>>> happend?" she would smile as brightly as possible and reply: "I'm
>>> in love! can you believe it? I'm finaly, totaly, in love. And you
>>> know what? It feels great!"
>>
>> So making light of battering is supposed to be amusing?
>>
>> Sorry, don't get it.

> I'm surprised, it's satire.

Oh, I understand that. Just don't find it funny.

> Apparently you aren't familiar with Amy Sedaris.

Nor her brother.

 

[Mark Hickey]

"Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Fritz M" wrote: (clip) What are bike handling skills that translate from
>mountain biking to road cycling?
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>A road bike generally moves in a sweeping straight or curved line, with both
>tires firmly in contact with pavement. A mountain bike encounters the type
>of terrain in which those conditions are not present. Either wheel may lose
>traction, the front wheel may lift, the front wheel may be guided by the
>trail surface, etc. The rider learns NOT to overcorrect for things which
>turn out okay, and learns to react quickly and spontaneously to all kinds of
>input from the bike and from the human "inertial guidance system."

Exactly. I've always maintained that you can learn more about bike
handling in an afternoon on a MTB than you can in a season of road
riding. You are essentially training your body to react with muscle
memory to the conditions that you seldom encounter when riding on the
road - namely front tire wash-outs, skids, etc. Thing is, if you wait
to learn how to handle these conditions on a road bike, chances are
you'll pay for your lessons in skin and blood.

The same applies to motorcycles - I always encourage anyone
considering buying a road bike to ride off-road as much as possible to
learn how to REALLY ride a motorcycle. Those who treat them like cars
are statistics waiting to happen.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 20 May 2005 16:21:56 -0500, Jim Smith <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[email protected] writes:
>
>> A few years ago i had dental surgery, and afterwards I had a black
>> eye. Not a big puffy shiner but it looked like the black stuff
>> football players put on under their eyes. I guess it was just from the
>> trauma of the surgery. I didn't really think anything of it but I
>> noticed people looking at me oddly, and I realized they thought I was
>> a victim of abuse or something. SO I began to use concealer until it
>> went away.
>
>David Sedaris tells a story of his sister Amy going out in puplic with
>make-up which makes it look as though she has black eyes, a fat lip,
>and stiches. When the occasional person would ask "what happend?" she
>would smile as brightly as possible and reply: "I'm in love! can you
>believe it? I'm finaly, totaly, in love. And you know what? It feels
>great!"

OMG, that's hilarious. I don't have any visible wounds right now, but
there have been times when I'm scuffed up. I'll remember that line if
anyone asks.

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On 21 May 2005 07:54:00 -0700, [email protected] wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>I'm disappointed that someone who claims to be an engineer - that
>is, educated and competent at math - adopts such a simplistic view and
>spouts it so regularly. "I don't read statistics..." [i.e. "I'm
>willfully ingnorant"] is one thing. Spending so much time expounding
>an ignorant viewpoint is quite another.

Hell, Frank, you should be well aware by now that no amount of facts
will ever persuade someone who "knows" they are right!

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound