"Israel must be wiped out" What gives?

[darkboong]

A few things need clarifying here to ther posters. What actually happened was that the fanatics involved in the London attacks were from immigrant families and were committed moslems.

Wrong.

What I would have said is this:
If a bombing has taken place with absolutely no warning and matches the pattern of other bombings (such as Madrid and Bali) common sense dictates where you need to be looking and it's not going to be in the countryside where fox-hunters and hooray Henries reside. That is, you're going to be looking for radical activists who reside in moslem communites (being careful not to accuse innocent people in the process).

That is where you are fundamentally wrong in your approach. You should not turn down a good lead, even if it does seem incongruous. With your approach what *actually* happens is that some poor ******* who looks about right gets collared, as happened with the dudes locked up for the Birmingham pub bombing for example. That is just one of *many* unsafe convictions that followed the Crappy method of criminal investigation.

Both davidmc and myself were using basic common sense. We weren't advocating knocking peoples' doors down but we suggested where the logical place would be to look.

As it turns out your guess was wrong.

However, at the time you yourself went into denial as I recall, same as most left-wing folks in this country.

Denial of what Crappy ? All I said was wait and see what evidence turns up. That ain't denial, the bomb happened, I was saying let the guys investigating it make their own minds up. Meanwhile you were *already* blaming it on Immigrants before they had even identified their suspects who turned out to be 2nd and 3rd generation British Citizens.

blah...lefties...blah...head in the sand...blah...good intentions...blah...the immigrants did it...denial...blah...blah...rhubarb...rhubarb...blah

There's no point in trying to make yourself look good, the very thread you brought up shows that you are the first one to point the finger at immigrants, Muslims and Arabs, and you'll do that on the basis of supposition, without a shred of evidence.

It is *YOU* who is in denial. Specifically you are painting the IRA as some kind of compassionate terrorist organisation. You are denying that the IRA ever attacked without warning (they did, frequently). You are denying that they avoided civillian casualities (wrong, they bombed pubs, chip shops, busses, trains, cars and houses). You are denying that they have a streak of ruthlessness a mile wide (eg: the knifing of a guy outside a pub in very recent memory), the knee cappings, the beatings, the shootings etc.

 

[Don Shipp]

Consequently, among a generation of Muslims born in Europe, significant numbers have nothing but contempt and disdain for their native lands, and allegiance only to the Muslim umma and the lands of their parents’ birth. Those who continue to arrive in Europe from Muslim countries are encouraged by the isolation, self-imposed and other-abetted, of the Islamic communities in Europe to hold to the same attitudes.

Whilest I have no doubt that many Muslims regard Christianity and democracy as sinful, and look forward to the day that by the Will of Allah and through the efforts and sacrifices of true believers the whole world will be converted to Islam; that does not mean that they are all working towards this or that it will ever actually happen. Europe and Britain are not becomng Islamified.
You quote freely and at great length from various sources but these are just other people's opinions or one-sided views of complex situations. In fact some of your sources lack any credibility and you should be more discriminating.
In London it is the underclass, consisting mainly of people who are native to this country, who are alienated and have only contempt and distain for a society that seems to offer them nothing. They are never going to be suicide bombers but neither are the majority of Muslims. Ghettos are created by differences in wealth more than by religion, race or culture.

 

[FredC]

"Er, gee Fred," says Barney with a puzzled expression. "Why did you call Boogers bilge boy? I think you mixed up your reply button!"
Nope, you're off the hook on that one. I simply don't recall you commenting about the IRA on that occasion.

I didn't. I hooked up onto DB's ref. regarding your lying accusations that we both were initially accused of implicating the IRA in the London Bombings. I qualified this in the posting Bilge Boy. In that case I might scroll back to find your post number whereby you implicated me without foundation. Mind you Walter Mitty it's par for the course for you.
Why am I now off the hook?

 

[FredC]

Whilest I have no doubt that many Muslims regard Christianity and democracy as sinful, and look forward to the day that by the Will of Allah and through the efforts and sacrifices of true believers the whole world will be converted to Islam; that does not mean that they are all working towards this or that it will ever actually happen. Europe and Britain are not becomng Islamified.
You quote freely and at great length from various sources but these are just other people's opinions or one-sided views of complex situations. In fact some of your sources lack any credibility and you should be more discriminating.
In London it is the underclass, consisting mainly of people who are native to this country, who are alienated and have only contemt and distain for a society that seems to offer them nothing. They are never going to be suicide bombers but neither are the majority of Muslims. Ghettos are created by differences in wealth more than by religion, race or culture.

Don lives in London, and so does DB as well as me. We don't have a problem with Moslems from wherever they are. We live in a multi-cultural society where daily life in the Capital is a hotch potch of people trying to make a crust. Moslems do not drink or cause trouble, but we know who does, and that is another matter. Now you tell me Crappo, from your very poor area of the world (West Midlands) both mentally and culturally, where your biased and bigotted concepts against Moslems come from? It is quite apparent from reading your posts that you are a continual failure in life.

 

[ptlwp]

Don lives in London, and so does DB as well as me. We don't have a problem with Moslems from wherever they are. We live in a multi-cultural society where daily life in the Capital is a hotch potch of people trying to make a crust. Moslems do not drink or cause trouble, but we know who does, and that is another matter. Now you tell me Crappo, from your very poor area of the world (West Midlands) both mentally and culturally, where your biased and bigotted concepts against Moslems come from? It is quite apparent from reading your posts that you are a continual failure in life.

Ghettoes are created by people who cannot or will not assimilate for whatever reasons. In the USA we have Mennonites, Amish, Hasidim, Cajuns, Native Americans, and many other groups for whom assimilation would be unacceptable.

It has got nothing to do with money....this is the way that they want to live and they live in peace side by side with the rest of the people who live in this country.

 

[ptlwp]

If it's not about Religion, WHY THE HELL DO YOU REPEATEDLY **** OFF ISLAM, ARABS AND MUSLIMS ? You and your cronies make it patently clear that it is about religion as far as you are concerned. Quite frankly I would be bored of it if it wasn't such a blatant hate crime.

I abhorr the violent tactics that are resorted to, find loathesome, callous, evil and psychotic. I have no problem with their religion, so long as they don't (but they do) preach hatred for outsiders (infidels)....or evil amongst their own.

 

[FredC]

I abhorr the violent tactics that are resorted to, find loathesome, callous, evil and psychotic. I have no problem with their religion, so long as they don't (but they do) preach hatred for outsiders (infidels)....or evil amongst their own.

That's a very good description of Israel. Well done. I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[ptlwp]

That's a very good description of Israel. Well done. I couldn't have put it better myself.

I totally give up on you, you are without sense or reason. Who is trying to proselytize and turn the whole world in a world of only Jewish people?

Now you are just a plain trollish person.

Who gives anyone the the right to blow up innocent people, in the name of religion, any religion, I ask you again?

Christ preached love, respect for others, was against money changing in the Temple and the end to the sacrifice of pidgeons (which I am ofcourse, against, yet at the time, was an improvement over human sacrifice) amongst turning the other cheek, did HE not? Whether it is Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist or any other religion, who are really blowing up whom and for what reason?

Jewbaiting is popular sport amongst certain people and that, I am sure will be eternal..

Keep giving yourself a good time.

 

[ptlwp]

Ghettoes are created by people who cannot or will not assimilate for whatever reasons. In the USA we have Mennonites, Amish, Hasidim, Cajuns, Native Americans, and many other groups for whom assimilation would be unacceptable.

It has got nothing to do with money....this is the way that they want to live and they live in peace side by side with the rest of the people who live in this country.

Can't answer this one, friccassee?

 

[FredC]

I totally give up on you, you are without sense or reason. Who is trying to proselytize and turn the whole world in a world of only Jewish people?

Now you are just a plain trollish person.

Who gives anyone the the right to blow up innocent people, in the name of religion, any religion, I ask you again?

Christ preached love, respect for others, was against money changing in the Temple and the end to the sacrifice of pidgeons (which I am ofcourse, against, yet at the time, was an improvement over human sacrifice) amongst turning the other cheek, did HE not? Whether it is Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist or any other religion, who are really blowing up whom and for what reason?

Jewbaiting is popular sport amongst certain people and that, I am sure will be eternal..

Keep giving yourself a good time.

Errrr, the state of Israel.?

Against money changing aged about 10?

Pigeons????
I don't think that there any Protestants around at the time, nor were there any Moslems, shittos et al. Jewbaiting is not a sport BTW.
You've got some good stuff tonight, keep puffing away.

 

[davidmc]

Both davidmc and myself were using basic common sense. We weren't advocating knocking peoples' doors down but we suggested where the logical place would be to look.

I advocated the profiling of 21-45 yr. old middle eastern men in transit area's such as airport's, train & bus stations, ports of entry. Primarily airports though. The 20th hijacker was refused entry in Miami airport by an alert customs officer:

August 4, 2001: Possible 20th Hijacker Denied Entry to US


Customs agent Jose Melendez-Perez.
A Saudi named Mohammed Al-Qahtani is stopped at the Orlando, Florida, airport and denied entry to the US. Jose Melendez-Perez, the customs official who stops him, later says he was suspicious of Al-Qahtani because he had arrived with no return ticket, no hotel reservations, spoke little English, behaved menacingly, and offered conflicting information on the purpose of his travel. At one point, Al-Qahtani said that someone was waiting for him elsewhere at the airport. After 9/11, surveillance cameras show that Mohamed Atta was at the Orlando airport that day. 9/11 Commissioner Richard Ben-Veniste says: “It is extremely possible and perhaps probable that [Al-Qahtani] was to be the 20th hijacker.” Al-Qahtani boards a return flight to Saudi Arabia. He is later captured in Afghanistan and sent to a US military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Melendez-Perez says that before 9/11, customs officials were discouraged by their superiors from hassling Saudi travelers, who were seen as big spenders. [Los Angeles Times, 1/27/04]
People and organizations involved: Mohammed Al-Qahtani, Mohamed Atta, Richard Ben-Veniste

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...ete_911_timeline&al-qaeda_members=mohamedAtta

 

[darkboong]

Whether it is Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist or any other religion, who are really blowing up whom and for what reason?

Hmm, the "Coalition" in Iraq is blowing up civillians, at least 27,000 of them directly killed by Coalition forces, that's just since 2003. I think the Islamic Fundamentalist total in the West stands around 2K in the same time frame. Even if you add the highest estimates of 9/11 total to their figure it doesn't come close to the 2 year *confirmed* kill rate of the Coalition forces.

In Israel the K : D ratio stands at roughly 4:1 in favour of the the Israelis.

Meanwhile here in our beloved Blighty, land of hope and glory, they just published some race crime figures :

Among the religiously-aggravated offences, the victim's actual or perceived religion was Muslim in 23 out of 34 cases.

It was Jewish in five cases, Christian in four, Hindu in two and Mormon in one. In four cases the religion was unknown.

These figures were gathered *before* 7/7 so I suspect the attacks on Muslims will go up. While that quote doesn't actually specify who the most aggressive bunch were the Muslim victim figure is nearly 5x that of Jews for example.

Jewbaiting is popular sport amongst certain people and that, I am sure will be eternal..

Apparently not half as popular as Muslim baiting. Mel. P. will probably be disappointed that this country hates Muslims more than Jews. It certainly puts her Islamaphobic ravings into perspective, doesn't it ?

 

[limerickman]

The Lancet survey from March 2003 to September 2004, surveyed fatalities due to Coalition forces in Iraq :using worldwide statistical analysis metrices, the Lancet and John Hopkins University estimated that 98,000 Iraq civilians had died during the period March 2003 to September 2004,

 

[Don Shipp]

Can't answer this one, friccassee?

Racially and culturally distinct groups can exist without antagonism if they have the same standard of living as their neighbours.
In London, the greatest racial and religious tensions occur where a socially disadvantaged underclass (poor white trash as often as anyone else) envy those whose work ethic and sense of community have enabled them to improve their own circumstances. It is not the immigrants causing the problem.

 

[Don Shipp]

The Lancet survey from March 2003 to September 2004, surveyed fatalities due to Coalition forces in Iraq :using worldwide statistical analysis metrices, the Lancet and John Hopkins University estimated that 98,000 Iraq civilians had died during the period March 2003 to September 2004,

I am Shocked and Awed.

 

[darkboong]

I am Shocked and Awed.

Aye, Proper Job.

I quoted the low figure for a reason, those are confirmed corpses on slabs as a direct result of Coalition fighting. I believe the Lancet/JH paper has broader criteria.

 

[Carrera]

This is wildly off the mark, I think.
Where you seem to be going astray is by taking only one aspect of a problem and making it the focal point of your conclusion.
You haven't included interethnic, religious violence that has been taking place in the U.K. between immigrants themselves and their diverse communities.
To give one example, the street-fighting (I think in Derby) between rival gangs of Kurdish immigrants and the local Pakistani men - all linked to cultural differences. Added to that you had the violence that was reported in Birmingham only a few weeks ago.
O.K. I admit there are groups of poorer whites who feel envy and racial prejudice mainly due to lack of education and poverty. But again, this is only one single aspect of a far wider problem that has many branches and has come back to haunt the U.K. and France due to the old colonial past.
I heard a BBC audience claim last night that it's the French who are to blame for the riots, torchings and destruction as it was claimed the French are racists. I couldn't believe my ears. Audience spokesmen were claiming that because there is this marginilization of communities in the French suburbs, the French got what they had asked for. What absurd, defeatist logic the BBC broadcast.
By the same token, I suppose that this also gives the Russian minorities of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania the right to destroy Estonian and Latvian businesses and go on the rampage simply because they are forced to take language exams in the national language and find it more difficult to get work.
This does seem to be the problem in this country. There is always an excuse and justification for extremism and we are all apparently racist if these poor, discriminated souls decide to torch cars and go on the rampage.
I'm sorry I don't buy it.

Racially and culturally distinct groups can exist without antagonism if they have the same standard of living as their neighbours.
In London, the greatest racial and religious tensions occur where a socially disadvantaged underclass (poor white trash as often as anyone else) envy those whose work ethic and sense of community have enabled them to improve their own circumstances. It is not the immigrants causing the problem.

 

[Carrera]

"Originally Posted by BBC
Among the religiously-aggravated offences, the victim's actual or perceived religion was Muslim in 23 out of 34 cases.
It was Jewish in five cases, Christian in four, Hindu in two and Mormon in one. In four cases the religion was unknown."

Looks like the Beeb decided not to mention the hundreds of Jews who fled France due to attacks on synagogues, violence and general racism within the country. As for the rest of the statistics, logic dictates that tensions are bound to be high after the London bombing although I should make it clear that doesn't justify any violence on either side against innocent people.
But it seems to me the Beeb has done quite a good job propagating the view of the "victim culture" Melanie Phillips keeps referring to.
The victim culture ignores such details as guns, firearms and chemicals being found in several mosques throughout the country and ignores the fact that victims of the London and Madrid bombings had been racially targeted as westerners. Nope, the idea is to present the French and Brits as antagonistic.

Hmm, the "Coalition" in Iraq is blowing up civillians, at least 27,000 of them directly killed by Coalition forces, that's just since 2003. I think the Islamic Fundamentalist total in the West stands around 2K in the same time frame. Even if you add the highest estimates of 9/11 total to their figure it doesn't come close to the 2 year *confirmed* kill rate of the Coalition forces.

In Israel the K : D ratio stands at roughly 4:1 in favour of the the Israelis.

Meanwhile here in our beloved Blighty, land of hope and glory, they just published some race crime figures :



These figures were gathered *before* 7/7 so I suspect the attacks on Muslims will go up. While that quote doesn't actually specify who the most aggressive bunch were the Muslim victim figure is nearly 5x that of Jews for example.



Apparently not half as popular as Muslim baiting. Mel. P. will probably be disappointed that this country hates Muslims more than Jews. It certainly puts her Islamaphobic ravings into perspective, doesn't it ?

 

[Carrera]

Agreed. The war has been a very serious mistake. Unfortunately I'm now wondering whether events in France, unemployment in Germany and the failure of the E.U. constitution has weakened Europe so much that the pro-war lobby may be on the ascent in the U.S. That may very well lead to a further conflict in Iran which would lead to even further deaths.

The Lancet survey from March 2003 to September 2004, surveyed fatalities due to Coalition forces in Iraq :using worldwide statistical analysis metrices, the Lancet and John Hopkins University estimated that 98,000 Iraq civilians had died during the period March 2003 to September 2004,

 

[Don Shipp]

I said that they CAN exist without antagonism, not that they always do. I have seen running battles on the streets of Stoke Newington between Turks and Greeks that had nothing to do with anything except their historical hatred of each other. But such minor skirmishes are not a part of the question about Israel's chances of survival if Iran gets the bomb, or their right to survive if it means continuous occupation of stolen land or continuous oppression of dispossessed former occupants.
Neither does it have much to do with the real threats to us posed by terrorists, or the less real threat to Western Democracy posed by Islamic immigrants.
We need to recognise the differences between those who wish to destroy us and those who don't and act in an appropriate way towards both.