"Israel must be wiped out" What gives?

[Carrera]

The following extract illustrates the facts behind the Government's propaganda line on victimhood:

"November 11, 2005
Readers may recall that the government’s committees that it set up to advise it on how to deal with Islamist extremism after the London bombings last July were stuffed with, er, Islamist extremists (see earlier post). Now they have reported. Guess what! They have concluded that the main problem is not what is wrong with Islam or the Muslim community -- but with Britain!
But hey — let’s not be unfair. They do also say that they want to convey to young British Muslims a ‘counter-narrative to terrorist readings of the Qur'an’. Promising. So who might they get to promulgate such a counter-narrative? Why, none other than our old friend Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, who supports human bomb terrorism in Iraq and Israel.
But not in the UK, apparently — so that makes him a role model for Muslim moderation!
As they say in my trade, you couldn’t make it up. Read it and weep for Britain. And let’s remind ourselves – this has been published by the British government Home Office. It might as well have published a national suicide note."

Hmm, the "Coalition" in Iraq is blowing up civillians, at least 27,000 of them directly killed by Coalition forces, that's just since 2003. I think the Islamic Fundamentalist total in the West stands around 2K in the same time frame. Even if you add the highest estimates of 9/11 total to their figure it doesn't come close to the 2 year *confirmed* kill rate of the Coalition forces.

In Israel the K : D ratio stands at roughly 4:1 in favour of the the Israelis.

Meanwhile here in our beloved Blighty, land of hope and glory, they just published some race crime figures :



These figures were gathered *before* 7/7 so I suspect the attacks on Muslims will go up. While that quote doesn't actually specify who the most aggressive bunch were the Muslim victim figure is nearly 5x that of Jews for example.



Apparently not half as popular as Muslim baiting. Mel. P. will probably be disappointed that this country hates Muslims more than Jews. It certainly puts her Islamaphobic ravings into perspective, doesn't it ?

 

[Carrera]

They can exist in harmony but the U.S. is much better at harmonsing migrants than we are in Europe. It's far easier for people of diverse cultures to become "Americans" than Europeans, in my own view. We Europeans are more insular and have more history behind us than the U.S. which was a country of immigrants from the outset.
So, what I jumped on here was this sentence:
"In London, the greatest racial and religious tensions occur where a socially disadvantaged underclass (poor white trash as often as anyone else) envy those whose work ethic and sense of community have enabled them to improve their own circumstances. It is not the immigrants causing the problem."

It was the very last phrase I had to jump on. Far be it from me to claim that the indigenous populations of France, Holland and the U.K. don't have "less educated" classes of people who experience this envy you point to, but it is only one aspect of a far wider scenario.
So, with respect to France, yes, I accept the French have marginalised certain communites and failed to integrate them better. But, no, I don't think that absolves foreigners from the responsibility of fighting for their rights by embracing the culture of the host country and accepting they reside in a supposedly secular country. I mean, Muhammad Ali and Malcolm X never torched the U.S. or advocated violence but behaved responsibly as U.S. citizens who simply sought change and greater equality.
I accept many whites are also racist but the best way to beat that is through education and prosperity.
But I think I take your point and agree with your basic analysis.

I said that they CAN exist without antagonism, not that they always do. I have seen running battles on the streets of Stoke Newington between Turks and Greeks that had nothing to do with anything except their historical hatred of each other. But such minor skirmishes are not a part of the question about Israel's chances of survival if Iran gets the bomb, or their right to survive if it means continuous occupation of stolen land or continuous oppression of dispossessed former occupants.
Neither does it have much to do with the real threats to us posed by terrorists, or the less real threat to Western Democracy posed by Islamic immigrants.
We need to recognise the differences between those who wish to destroy us and those who don't and act in an appropriate way towards both.

 

[Carrera]

That's Fred and Boogers for you. Sadly they represent a majority over here. In a nutshell they both adhere to this view that people who commit acts of terror, hide behind women and children, blow up trains, hijack planes or drive explosive-laden lorries into buildings are "justified" by the extremity of their status as victim.
We should all be apprently wringing our hands bending over backwards to hear them out.

I totally give up on you, you are without sense or reason. Who is trying to proselytize and turn the whole world in a world of only Jewish people?

Now you are just a plain trollish person.

Who gives anyone the the right to blow up innocent people, in the name of religion, any religion, I ask you again?

Christ preached love, respect for others, was against money changing in the Temple and the end to the sacrifice of pidgeons (which I am ofcourse, against, yet at the time, was an improvement over human sacrifice) amongst turning the other cheek, did HE not? Whether it is Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, Shinto, Buddhist or any other religion, who are really blowing up whom and for what reason?

Jewbaiting is popular sport amongst certain people and that, I am sure will be eternal..

Keep giving yourself a good time.

 

[Carrera]

"We live in a multi-cultural society where daily life in the Capital is a hotch potch of people trying to make a crust."

You live in a hotch-potch city where many people feel nervous sitting on a bus or train, eyeing up the folks sitting next to them (who may have a large package) because they fear it could be another bomb. Please don't deny that because Londoners have confessed to these basic fears on the underground and on buses. Many people have even purchased bikes as an alternative. Some freedom, huh?
Soon, your policy of unlimited, unregulated immigration, your defence of religious extremism, your refusal to shut down extremist mosques (such as the former Finsbury Park) will have dire consequences. Probably within 12 - 15 years time suicide bombings will be as common in London as in Telaviv (although the latter has improved with the building of a wall).
But if we take China or Japan we find people sitting on buses without fear. There is no problem. The Chinese would kick these London imans out of Bejing so fast, once they put a foot wrong, their feet wouldn't touch the ground.
This is why businesses will be avoiding France like the plague and pouring money into these alternative economies.
This is is the simple truth you don't dare face up to. And investment in London will drop even more than it has done unless foreign investors feel the Government has taken terrorism seriously.

Don lives in London, and so does DB as well as me. We don't have a problem with Moslems from wherever they are. We live in a multi-cultural society where daily life in the Capital is a hotch potch of people trying to make a crust. Moslems do not drink or cause trouble, but we know who does, and that is another matter. Now you tell me Crappo, from your very poor area of the world (West Midlands) both mentally and culturally, where your biased and bigotted concepts against Moslems come from? It is quite apparent from reading your posts that you are a continual failure in life.

 

[darkboong]

"Originally Posted by BBC
Among the religiously-aggravated offences, the victim's actual or perceived religion was Muslim in 23 out of 34 cases.
It was Jewish in five cases, Christian in four, Hindu in two and Mormon in one. In four cases the religion was unknown."

Looks like the Beeb decided not to mention the hundreds of Jews who fled France due to attacks on synagogues, violence and general racism within the country.

That is because it is a British Crime Survey you pillock. Even then the hundreds figure is still up for debate with respect to France.

As for the rest of the statistics, logic dictates that tensions are bound to be high after the London bombing although I should make it clear that doesn't justify any violence on either side against innocent people.

As stated : Those figures were gathered *BEFORE* 7/7.

But it seems to me the Beeb has done quite a good job propagating the view of the "victim culture" Melanie Phillips keeps referring to.

Mel.P. isn't exactly innocent of playing the victim card is she ? Her entire "Eurabia" thing is a victim card in itself. Pretty typical bit of mis-direction, and quite frankly looking at those *PRE-7/7* figures I think that the Muslims have every right to feel like victims given the way that figure is nearly 5x the second place.

The victim culture ignores such details as guns, firearms and chemicals being found in several mosques throughout the country and ignores the fact that victims of the London and Madrid bombings had been racially targeted as westerners. Nope, the idea is to present the French and Brits as antagonistic.

There was no racial discrimination in either of those bombs. There was no possibility of targetting them on a race basis. Last time I checked there was no "colour-bar" operating on the Tube or Madrid train systems. They attacked public transport at peak hours in the inner city, in *MULTI-CULTURAL* cities.

Jesus Christ Crappy you really take the ****.

 

[darkboong]

The following extract illustrates the facts behind the Government's propaganda line on victimhood:

"November 11, 2005
Readers may recall that the government’s committees that it set up to advise it on how to deal with Islamist extremism after the London bombings last July were stuffed with, er, Islamist extremists (see earlier post).

Source please. Also name the folks who you think are extremist on that panel along with a brief reason why you think they are extremist.

Whoever wrote that needs a bloody good slapping.

 

[Carrera]

It was reported by no other than the Beeb last night. I saw the report and the conclusion of the report. My own research has also confirmed the Government does have committees that advise them and some of these are manned by peope who have been banned from even entering the U.S.
The report rightly suggested the Iraq war policy had drummed up tensions which I accept as fair. But the rest of the report again suggests that people such as myself and Don Shipman (and others) are essentially to blame for apparently being Islamophobic. Again - the victim culture.
There is no mention of the fact moslems should reign in the radical preachers or consider they ought to do more to accept secular democracy. It is a one way alley where blame goes in one direction and extremism is humoured.

Source please. Also name the folks who you think are extremist on that panel along with a brief reason why you think they are extremist.

Whoever wrote that needs a bloody good slapping.

 

[FredC]

I didn't. I hooked up onto DB's ref. regarding your lying accusations that we both were initially accused of implicating the IRA in the London Bombings. I qualified this in the posting Bilge Boy. In that case I might scroll back to find your post number whereby you implicated me without foundation. Mind you Walter Mitty it's par for the course for you.
Why am I now off the hook?

CRAPPY, It's chucking it down and your barge's sinking. Now go and find the IRA post implicating DB and myself.

 

[ptlwp]

Nazi's and Germany in WWI had excuses for their barbaric actions; and the Philistine squatters who wish to see Israel's demise also have an excuse for their babaric actions, let's not forget that some adversaries, there is NO talking with because they are the puppets of one psychotic megalomanic or the other......

this is the sad truth...

 

[ptlwp]

Nazi's and Germany in WWI had excuses for their barbaric actions; and the Philistine squatters who wish to see Israel's demise also have an excuse for their babaric actions, let's not forget that some adversaries, there is NO talking with because they are the puppets of one psychotic megalomanic or the other......

this is the sad truth...

Also, I'd like to know exactly what talents and ways and means to make a living have the immigrants brought to France or any other oountry in Europe or America? Some are shopkeepers but I don't have statistics, however, it seems to me that immigrants who come to the USA from non-arabic countries (India, Asia, Mexican, are doctors, engineers and well trained and educated people, who want to succed and make a contribution to society, not tear down society. Those who come here offering not much but their own good will and wishes to make life better for their children, such as the Mexicans, accept the facts of life, that they might have to do more menial work because that is the way reality is.......but that their children have a chance to do better. They don't wish to go to a country which is as bad as the one they came from, you see. Mexicans take jobs as lawnkeepers, restaurant help, maids because they have hope for the future. They don't come here to bomb things and cause chaos. They are for the most part Catholic, but they don't have a Catholic agenda and don't try to make a Catholic issue out of everything.

If you come to a country offering nothing to put on the table and also seem to think that the world owes you a living, then you have a population that is playing with themselves. Why even go to France if there are not enough jobs there? Why bother going where you are not welcome, for whatever prejudiced reason.

I wouldn't go live in Germany or Poland, to this day, for instance. Even to this day, I'd have bad feelings about living there and the same goes for most of Europe who have successfully tossed out there Jewish Brethren who did absolutely nothing to deserve what they got; let alone if they had been rioting and causing catastrophe, which they did not, and still got it up the ass because of xenophobia which is the European way of life, seems to me.

I wouldn't go to a country that didn't really want me, wasn't going to play fair and so forth. As bad as it might be in Algiers, Tunis, or Morocco or whatever, at least you are in the same boat with your confreres, your brothers and sisters. Stay there and make your own country better. Why run someplace else, where you are not needed, wanted, nor accepted?

 

[FredC]

Nazi's and Germany in WWI had excuses for their barbaric actions; and the Philistine squatters who wish to see Israel's demise also have an excuse for their babaric actions, let's not forget that some adversaries, there is NO talking with because they are the puppets of one psychotic megalomanic or the other......

this is the sad truth...

Who's the psychotic megalomaniac? Ariel Sharon?

 

[FredC]

Also, I'd like to know exactly what talents and ways and means to make a living have the immigrants brought to France or any other oountry in Europe or America? Some are shopkeepers but I don't have statistics, however, it seems to me that immigrants who come to the USA are doctors, engineers and well trained and educated people.

If you come to a country offering nothing to put on the table and also seem to think that the world owes you a living, then you have a population that is playing with themselves. Why even go to France if there are not enough jobs there? Why bother going where you are not welcome, for whatever prejudiced reason.

I wouldn't go live in Germany or Poland, to this day, for instance. Even to this day, I'd have bad feelings about living there and the same goes for most of Europe who have successfully tossed out there Jewish Brethren who did absolutely nothing to deserve what they got; let alone if they had been rioting and causing catastrophe, which they did not, and still got it up the ass because of xenophobia which is the European way of life, seems to me.

I wouldn't go to a country that didn't really want me, wasn't going to play fair and so forth. As bad as it might be in Algiers, Tunis, or Morocco or whatever, at least you are in the same boat with your confreres, your brothers and sisters. Stay there and make your own country better. Why run someplace else, where you are not needed, wanted, nor accepted?

And just what have the wetbacks and the Hispanics brought to the American table?

 

[darkboong]

It was reported by no other than the Beeb last night.

I am betting about 10,000,000 quid that was not the Beeb you were quoting Craptain Pugwash.

I repeat : State your source, or if it *really* is the Beeb post a link so I can beat the **** out of their editorial team in my crusade to promote tolerance and understanding.

 

[darkboong]

Nazi's and Germany in WWI had excuses for their barbaric actions; and the Philistine squatters who wish to see Israel's demise also have an excuse for their babaric actions,

That's wierd. I thought the Zionists were squatting there as part of their mission from God to expand Israel..

 

[ptlwp]

That's wierd. I thought the Zionists were squatting there as part of their mission from God to expand Israel..

Iraelites were there first and that's that.

 

[darkboong]

And just what have the wetbacks and the Hispanics brought to the American table?

Well, she needs something to wipe her **** on.

 

[ptlwp]

Who's the psychotic megalomaniac? Ariel Sharon?

He is a leader who is trying to save his own people from being destroyed and "pushed into the sea" as the agenda of their adversaries have never and will never change.

 

[FredC]

Iraelites were there first and that's that.

The region where DB and I come from used to burn people like you. They were called the 'Pendle Witches'. All old demented hags.

 

[FredC]

He is a leader who is trying to save his own people from being destroyed and "pushed into the sea" as the agenda of their adversaries have never and will never change.

Well in that case he's going the wrong way. There is no sea near the occupied West Bank.

 

[darkboong]

He is a leader who is trying to save his own people from being destroyed and "pushed into the sea" as the agenda of their adversaries have never and will never change.

Interestingly that "pushed into the sea" quote originates from an Israeli politician, not, as commonly claimed, an Arab (the particular Arab changes depending on who is quoting it).

'The Arabs' exit from Palestine...began immediately after the UN resolution, from the areas earmarked for the Jewish state. And we have explicit documents testifying that they left Palestine following instructions by the Arab leaders, with the Mufti at their head, under the assumption that the invasion of the Arab armies at the expiration of the Mandate will destroy the Jewish state and push all the Jews into the sea, dead or alive'.

Look at that, some "victim culture". Gee, who would have thunk it. Then there's the flip side of Ben Gurion, Ethnic Cleanser extraordinaire.

"What is necessary is cruel and strong reactions. We need precision in time, place, and casualties...we must strike mercilessly, women and children included. Otherwise, the reaction is inefficient. At the place of action, there is no need to distinguish between guilty and innocent."

While we're on the subject of who is driving who off the turf in the region. The following is an analysis of an IDF report of June 1948

The Intelligence Service then gives a detailed breakdown and explanation of these factors, stressing that "without doubt, hostile [Haganah/IDF] operations were the main cause of the movement of the population". The wave of emigration in each district, explains the report, "followed hard upon the increase and expansion of our [Haganah/IDF] operations in that district. The departure of the British of course, helped the Arab evacuation, but it appears that the British withdrawal freed our hands for action more than it influenced the Arab immigration directly."

The report cites "surprise, protracted mortar barrages, and the use of loudspeakers broadcasting threatening messages, factors which had a strong influence in precipitation flight". "An attack on one village or town often affected its neighbors. The evacuation of a certain village because of an attack by us prompted in its wake many neighboring villages to flee", the report states. "The fall of Tiberias, Safad, Samakh, Jaffa, and Acre engendered in their wake many waves of emigrants."

The report concludes that "It is possible to say that at least 55% of the total of the exodus was caused by our Haganah/IDF operations and by their influence. the effects of the operations of the dissidents Jewish organizations [the Irgun and the Stern Gang] directly caused some 15% of the emigration." The Intelligence Service states that the activities of the Irgun and Stern were especially important in the Jaffa-Tel Aviv area, in the coastal plain to the north, and around Jerusalem. The report cites the "special effect" of the Irgun and Stern Gang operations in Deir Yassin.

Moving further back in time to one of the key people behind the Zionist movement :

[We shall] spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.

Returning to good old Ben "Ethnic Cleansing" Gurion.

The compulsory transfer of Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had, even when we stood on our own feet during the days of the First and Second Temple.

We must expel the Arabs and take their places and if we have to use force, to guarantee our own right to settle in those places * then we have force at our disposal.

Note that Ben Gurion is talking in terms of might makes right. He doesn't assume any legitimate claim to the land, but rather establishing one through "forced expulsion". We call that Ethnic Cleansing in this day and age.

Turning to the opposition, the 1967 PLO charter :

The liberation of Palestine, from a spiritual viewpoint, will prepare an atmosphere of tranquility and peace for the Holy Land in the shade of which all the Holy Places will be safeguarded, and freedom of worship and visitation to all will be guaranteed, without distinction or discrimination of race, colour, language or religion.

Note the inclusive language.

The partitioning of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of Israel is fundamentally null and void, because it is contrary to the wish of the people of Palestine and its natural right to a homeland, and contradicts the principles embodied in the Charter of the UN, the first of which is the right of self-determination.

Take note the concept of self-determination, ie: the right for *all* the people who inhabit the land to decide how it should be run.

Clearly the two movements have very different origins and aims, and it is true that they are mutually incompatible. You can't share land with a bunch of folks who don't want to share.