Labor charge on headset install

[A. Antonovitz]

In article <[email protected]>, Werehatrack
<[email protected]> wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 22:23:36 -0500, "A. Antonovitz" <[email protected]> may have said:
>
> >What is a reasonable charge to install a headset on a frame/fork with no headset present? I was
> >quoted$40 at a local LBS- not including the headset. Seems high to me. Any comment would be
> >appreciated.
>
Wow. I am amazed at the level of interest and heated exchanges over my question! Here's the
situation. I won the bid on an eBay Lemond Zurich model year 2000 frame and fork which the seller
says he bought from a dealer who stripped the parts off a whole bike.I just paid for it today, it
will take a week to ship. If the bike was built at the factory, can i count on the facing to have
been done right? I have removed and installed heasdsets myself as an upgrade to my bikes with no
problems. But since I don't know what headset was originally on this, I might have a stack height
discrepancy, right? I would like to put on an Ultegra which is 36.7mm. Is there much variation
between brands? Until I get it - Let us pray for its survival in shipping! - I won't know the real
condition. Thanks to all who replied.

Tony A.

 

[S. Anderson]

"Alex Rodriguez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I don't see why having quality stuff would up the cost. If anything, I
would
> think it would be cheaper since quality stuff is expected to fit better as well as work better. So
> less work should be needed to get it in the frame properly.

Well...yes and no. If you're talking a BMX bike, you can throw a headset in a clunker like that in 5
mins. If you mess it up, you can generally fix the damage pretty cheaply so you zip through those
things in a big hurry. And the operation is generally not great to begin with, so if you miss a bit
here or there on your measurements, nobody will notice except you. PLUS, chances are they're put
through few miles so it could be argued, from a business POV, that you're wasting time overdoing the
job. If you've got a $1000 frame and $500 fork, you better believe you mic every measurement twice
and cut very carefully once. As a general comparison (there are exceptions..), I installed cheapo
headsets in about 10-15mins assuming you had good part sizing. On a $1000 frame and $500 fork, I'd
take a 1/2 hour. That's my experience. Others may have different experiences, but in my shop, that's
the way it went for the most part. Imagine standing there in the shop with a $500 fork in one hand
and a hacksaw in the other and you're about to cut the steerer. Now, imagine the same thing, but
with a $25 fork. It shouldn't matter, but it does!! ;-)

Cheers,

Scott..

 

[x]

RE/
>What is a reasonable charge to install a headset on a frame/fork with no headset present? I was
>quoted$40 at a local LBS- not including the headset. Seems high to me. Any comment would be
>appreciated.

Somebody just migrated one for me while I watched.

My estimate: removal time, about seven minutes.

Installation time: less than five.

--
PeteCresswell

 

[R15757]

Tom Paterson wrote:

<< Too-shay. Forty bucks to "make it work" and guarantee the job is lunch money, especially on
"strange stuff" brought into a shop.>>

Gaurantee the job? Is this a feature of the modern LBS? I wasn't aware.

If you want to guarantee that a job is done right, learn to do it and do it.

<<Plumbers, electricians, auto repair: priced any of that lately? >>

Yeah, it's definitely a good idea to take care of most of that on your own as well, if you're a poor-
ass mofo like me. The knowledge is easily acquired, just dive in. Most of the tools are the same.
There are books that spell everything out in plain language. When you get to something freaky, call
a specialist. Get on t he freakin plumbing newsgroup and figure it out.

Or, if you have money to burn, or feel you lack the time and energy to undertake do-it-yourself
projects, pay the exhorbitant fees that are currently being suggested like shots in the dark by your
local LBS. Just walk right in and ante up, baby. But know that by accepting these arbitrary prices
you are making it difficult for normal people with normal salaries to get a fair deal at bike shops
in the future.

Forty bucks to install a headset! Ha! Enough is enough.

Resist the reamers and the reamers will go away. (Not before whining about not being able to pay
rent, though.)

cheers, Robert

 

[Bruce Lange]

"A. Antonovitz"wrote in message

> If the bike was built at the factory, can i count on the facing to have been done right?

Not exactly.

You'd want to know the reputation of the dealer. This is often left to bike shops, and not all of
them do it.

 

[S. Anderson]

"R15757" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Or, if you have money to burn, or feel you lack the time and energy to undertake do-it-yourself
> projects, pay the exhorbitant fees that are
currently
> being suggested like shots in the dark by your local LBS. Just walk right
in
> and ante up, baby. But know that by accepting these arbitrary prices you
are
> making it difficult for normal people with normal salaries to get a fair
deal
> at bike shops in the future.

A little counter-argument here...I've been a mechanic for years, but there are times and jobs that I
just don't want to do. There's nothing wrong with paying for someone to do a service that you simply
don't WANT to do yourself. I can get my oil changed for $19..it's more than worth it, to me, to have
someone else do it than for me to do it. Is that wasting money?? I'm not so sure. It's just a ****
job I'd rather have someone else do. Service isn't always based on an inability to perform the work,
it can also be based on a desire NOT to do the work! ;-) Call me lazy...

Cheers,

Scott..

 

[Boyd Speerschne]

Zog The Undeniable <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Seconded. Brand new frames need facing, if only to remove paint from the top and bottom of the
> head tube. Some are wildly out of parallel and need a lot of facing - I once had a frame where it
> was impossible to tighten the headset without it binding up, and it constantly unscrewed itself
> when riding. I had the head tube faced by a decent LBS and it never gave any further trouble.

Is this necessary with an integrated headset?

 

[Zog The Undenia]

Boyd Speerschneider wrote:

> Is this necessary with an integrated headset?
>
As the headset still has to be a tight fit with the head tube, some preparation still has to be
done. However, an "internal" headset requires the tube to be faced normally as it is just another
take on the conventional design (see
http://www.chrisking.com/tech/int_headsets_explained/int_hds_explain_5.html), but an "integrated"
headset only touches the inside of the tube and requires the preparation to be done there instead. I
doubt that most LBSs have the equipment to machine a head tube for an integrated headset.

 

[Qui Si Parla Ca]

r15757-<< Guarantee the job? Is this a feature of the modern LBS? I wasn't aware. >><BR><BR>

YGBSM...why would a competent bike shop not guarantee their work?? Why would it be different from
any other service type store? Like car repair, appliance repair, watch repair???

rnumbers<< If you want to guarantee that a job is done right, learn to do it and do it. >><BR><BR>

Absolutely and make sure you purchase all the right tools that you can't 'make' with stuff from
Home Depot, like a set of reamers and taps specific to the bicycle. Shouldn't be more than about
$600 or so...

rnumbers-<< Or, if you have money to burn, or feel you lack the time and energy to undertake do-it-
yourself projects, pay the exhorbitant fees that are currently being suggested like shots in the
dark by your local LBS. Just walk right in and ante up, baby. >><BR><BR>

See above. As much as you would like to think the bicycle is just a simple piece of 'gear', doing it
and doing it right is sometimes miles apart.

rnumbers<< But know that by accepting these arbitrary prices you are making it difficult for normal
people with normal salaries to get a fair deal at bike shops in the future. >><BR><BR>

Yikes, did you ever get shafted by somebody....

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Richard Chan]

[email protected] (Mike Krueger) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> << What is a reasonable charge to install a headset on a frame/fork with no headset present? I was
> quoted $40 at a local LBS- not including the headset. Seems high to me. Any comment would be
> appreciated. Tony A. >>
>
> What's $40 on a bike that costs over $1000? If this job is not done correctly, you can ruin a new
> headset pretty quickly. I'm quite self-sufficient with bike mainenence, but I also know when to
> defer to an expert. My LBS is always there when I have a problem I can't resolve myself. He is
> also a one-man operation with a lease, overhead, and a family to feed. He charges $40 to face a
> head tube, cut the fork steerer, and install a new headset. Seems reasonable to me.

I second this. I think my LBS charges $45. Facing and reaming if needed.

For integrated headsets, maybe $20, the frame's headtube already has this done at the factory. If
not, something is deadly wrong. The only thing needed is cutting the steerer to length. Sometimes
the steerer is precut (carbon) like my Wilier. The fun part is the adjustment.

 

[Tom Paterson]

>From: [email protected] (R15757)

>If you want to guarantee that a job is >done right, learn to do it and do it.

>Yeah, it's definitely a good idea to take care of most of that [plumbing,
electrical] on your own as
>well, if you're a poor-ass mofo like me. The knowledge is easily acquired, just dive in. Most of
>the tools are the same. There are books that spell everything out in plain language.

I'm a retired plumber. You are wrong. IME, if a carpenter or electrician even had a pipe wrench
with him on the job, I wouldn't want to use it. And have one of those guys work on *my* toilet?
Or kitchen faucet? I never saw a non-plumber install (set/setup) a toilet correctly, for all the
Home Depot classes and internet and books. Problem? Poor function, water damage (attempt to
return to thread).

>But know that by accepting these arbitrary prices you are making it difficult for normal people
>with normal salaries to get a fair deal at bike shops in the future.

Normal = poor? I don't want to "know" that. Fair? That one swings both ways. --TP

 

[Todd Kuzma]

I never saw if the original poster listed what was to be included in the $40 install. I think
that it will be hard to determine if this is a fair price without knowing the extent of what is
being done.

If the job includes frame and fork prep and removing the old headset, it's not necessarily a bad
price. While home mechanics might make their own tools and skip several steps, a good shop will do
the job correctly with the proper tools.

Here is a list of tools necessary for this job with a range of prices for each:

Head Tube Facer and Reamer - $195-301 Cutters for Integrated Headsets - $209-253 Crown Race Cutter -
$295 Steerer Cutting Guide - $13 per size Steerer Thread Die - $61-153 Crown Race Remover - $75-195
Crown Race Setter - $8 (per size) - $65 Headset Press - $78 Headset Press Adapter for King Headsets
- $42 Star-Nut Setter - $7-25 Headset Wrench - $7 each

So, a shop will spend $1000-1500 just to be equipped to handle headsets. This doesn't include other
common tool adapters as well as replacement or resharpening of worn tools.

Big shops use these tools every day, but smaller shops may only need all of them a dozen times a
year. That makes for a pretty long payback.

Most shop owners aren't driving Bentleys. An industry survey a few years ago showed that the
average shop owner makes $25K a year. There might be gouging going on in places, but it's not
really that common.

Todd Kuzma Heron Bicycles Tullio's Big Dog Cyclery LaSalle, Il 815-223-1776
http://www.heronbicycles.com http://www.tullios.com

 

[R15757]

Tom Paterson wrote:

<< >From: [email protected] (R15757)

>>If you want to guarantee that a job is >done right, learn to do it and do it.

>>Yeah, it's definitely a good idea to take care of most >of that [plumbing, electrical] on
>>your own as
>well, if you're a poor-ass mofo like me. The knowledge >is easily acquired,
>>just dive in. Most of the tools are the same. There are books that spell everything out in plain
>>language.

>I'm a retired plumber. You are wrong.
IME, if a carpenter or electrician even had a pipe >wrench with him on the job, I wouldn't want to
use it. And have one of those guys >work on *my* toilet? Or kitchen faucet? I never saw a non-
plumber install >(set/setup) a toilet correctly, for all the Home Depot classes and internet >and
books. Problem? Poor
>function, water damage (attempt to return to thread).

I'll give you that one. My toilet has issues. But like I said, call(Pay) a specialist if
you need to.

>>But know that by accepting these arbitrary prices you are making it difficult for normal people
>>with normal salaries to get a fair deal at bike shops in the future.

Normal = poor? I don't want to "know" that. Fair? That one swings both ways. --TP
>>

Semantics I guess. Bikes have always been primarily a "rich" man's hobby in the US. Makes it hard
for the rest of us to get a good deal on service and new equipment--but makes it easier for the rest
of us to get good used equipment.

The definition of 'fair' is currently being pushed beyond the pale by desperado bike shop
owners. Resist.

Robert

 

[R15757]

I wrote: << Guarantee the job? Is this a feature of the modern LBS? I wasn't aware. >> >>

Peter Chisolm rreplied: << YGBSM...why would a competent bike shop not guarantee their work?? Why
would it be different from any other service type store? Like car repair, appliance repair, watch
repair??? >>

It's not different: they say they guarantee the work but in reality there are too many shades of
gray and layers of uncertaintly to hide behind.

So let's say I take my old touring bike into the shop for something and the kid in the back, being
rather unfamiliar with equipment that was made before 1985, the year of his birth, tightens my old
stem to the point that it cracks the steer tube on my 531 fork. This results in the fork failing and
me taking a horrible fall on a mountain descent, and I am now a vegetable. Will the shop pay my
medical bills? Or let's say the dude in back has too much to smoke at lunch and decides a customer
needs to raise his seatpost by half an inch for optimum positioning, but this raising the post puts
it just slightly beyond the limit line and this results in the lightweight frame cracking, several
weeks later near the seat collar. Will the shop replace the customer's 1600$ frame, or will the shop
"be happy to give the customer a good deal" on a new frame, or what? Let's say a customer's new custom-
built wheel starts to undish after 10,000 miles. Two years after he bought it he brings it back.
Will you give him a new wheel, rebuild the old one for free, or laugh in his face?

Realistically, taking a bike to the LBS is more of a you pays your money you takes your chances
situation.

What, you don't have any disclaimer on your repair tickets?

I wrote and Peter replied:

<< rnumbers<< If you want to guarantee that a job is done right, learn to do it and do it. >>

>Absolutely and make sure you purchase all the right tools that you can't
'make'
>with stuff from Home Depot, like a set of reamers and taps specific to the
bicycle. Shouldn't be more than about $600 or so...

rnumbers-<< Or, if you have money to burn, or feel you lack the time and energy to undertake do-it-
yourself projects, pay the exhorbitant fees that are currently being suggested like shots in the
dark by your local LBS. Just walk right in and ante up, baby. >>

>See above. As much as you would like to think the bicycle is just a simple piece of 'gear', doing
>it and doing it right is sometimes miles apart. >>

I know what the bicycle is and what it isn't.

This thread was about a 40$ headset install. You know that's a 15-25$ job, admit it.

Robert

 

[Tom Paterson]

>From: [email protected]

>Normal = poor? I don't want to "know" that. Fair? That one swings both ways. --TP

>Semantics I guess.

No, a plain statement of fact.

>Bikes have always been primarily a "rich" man's hobby in the US.

Hobby, yes. Some do ride for transportation, a pretty small minority. But "rich"? No and no way.
Polo. Tiffany glass.

>Makes it hard for the rest of us to get a good deal on service and new equipment--but makes it
>easier for the rest of us to get good used equipment.

Did you ever think about raising your station in life? Forty bucks is lunch money in today's
economic reality. The playing field is not tilting, it's splitting. Choose your side.

>The definition of 'fair' is currently being pushed beyond the pale by desperado bike shop
>owners. Resist.

My goodness. My toolbox has that length of all-thread with washers and nuts alluded to here (minus
those spiffy brass pieces, I'll have to go look again). But with an unknown or new bike, it's the
full treatment with real shop tools, and the shop charge. Not worth the hassle of skipping that
step, and you don't have to ask me how I know. --Tom Paterson, done here TNX

 

[B.C. Cletta]

David Reuteler <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Mike Krueger <[email protected]> wrote:
> : What's $40 on a bike that costs over $1000? If this job is not done correctly,
>
> it really does come down to whether they'll do the job correctly and well enuf to warrant $40.
>
> i know a lot of shops that'll do a shitty job AND take your $40.
>
> we don't have enuf context to answer the OP's question. the price isn't so high as to never be
> warranted but it is high enuf to raise flags so it depends largely on what they're charging you
> for everything else you've ever had 'em do. if they're taking care of you .. it's no big deal.
>
> (i just love walking into threads and saying the obvious)

while i agree with you in general, i think i do have enough info from the OP: he doesn't trust
the LBS which is why he's asking the Q. he needs to move on down the road w/ his frame until he
finds one he does trust.

 

[A Muzi]

S. Anderson wrote:

> "Alex Rodriguez" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I don't see why having quality stuff would up the cost. If anything, I
>
> would
>
>>think it would be cheaper since quality stuff is expected to fit better as well as work better. So
>>less work should be needed to get it in the frame properly.
>
>
> Well...yes and no. If you're talking a BMX bike, you can throw a headset in a clunker like that in
> 5 mins. If you mess it up, you can generally fix the damage pretty cheaply so you zip through
> those things in a big hurry. And the operation is generally not great to begin with, so if you
> miss a bit here or there on your measurements, nobody will notice except you. PLUS, chances are
> they're put through few miles so it could be argued, from a business POV, that you're wasting time
> overdoing the job. If you've got a $1000 frame and $500 fork, you better believe you mic every
> measurement twice and cut very carefully once. As a general comparison (there are exceptions..), I
> installed cheapo headsets in about 10-15mins assuming you had good part sizing. On a $1000 frame
> and $500 fork, I'd take a 1/2 hour. That's my experience. Others may have different experiences,
> but in my shop, that's the way it went for the most part. Imagine standing there in the shop with
> a $500 fork in one hand and a hacksaw in the other and you're about to cut the steerer. Now,
> imagine the same thing, but with a $25 fork. It shouldn't matter, but it does!! ;-)

I don't understand how you can spend a half hour on a headset installation, even with milling.
Remove, clean, fit new bearings, rebuild headset, reassemble bike certainly shoots a half-hour easy.

Measure? That's what go-nogo gauges are for.

In my experience, good quality equipment ( we install a lot of Campagnolo Chorus headsets here) on
good quality frames (It doesn't have to be pricey to be straight and square) takes much less time
because everything fits well.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[S. Anderson]

"A Muzi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I don't understand how you can spend a half hour on a headset installation, even with
> milling. Remove, clean, fit new bearings, rebuild headset, reassemble bike certainly shoots a
> half-hour easy.

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking full bike install, not frame/fork like OP had stated. Still, it
can drag out even with bare frame and fork. If you have to cut the crown, steerer, face the head
tube..it can chew up the best part of a 1/2 hour. Plus you have to factor in the WD-40 fight... ;-)

Cheers,

Scott..

 

[Qui Si Parla Ca]

r15757-<< It's not different: they say they guarantee the work but in reality there are too many
shades of gray and layers of uncertaintly to hide behind. >><BR><BR>

I can only speak for MY shop and there are no shades of gray and no layers of uncertainty..I hide
behind nothing.

r15757<< So let's say I take my old touring bike into the shop for something and the kid in the
back, being rather unfamiliar with equipment that was made before 1985, the year of his birth,
tightens my old stem to the point that it cracks the steer tube on my 531 fork. This results in the
fork failing and me taking a horrible fall on a mountain descent, and I am now a vegetable. Will the
shop pay my medical bills? >><BR><BR>

I cannot speak to that shop as the average of the poeple here is about 37 and I am 53...But if I had
done what you said, you or your relatives would own the shop. Why do ya think that a bicycle shop
has some sort of dispensation or exception from liability?

r15757-<< Or let's say the dude in back has too much to smoke at lunch and decides a customer needs
to raise his seatpost by half an inch for optimum positioning, but this raising the post puts it
just slightly beyond the limit line and this results in the lightweight frame cracking, several
weeks later near the seat collar. >><BR><BR>

Like I said, you got screwed by somebody in a bike shop...find another, there are good ones
and bad ones.

r15757- << Realistically, taking a bike to the LBS is more of a you pays your money you takes your
chances situation.

What, you don't have any disclaimer on your repair tickets? >><BR><BR>

See above...

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[R15757]

Peter Chisholm wrote:

<< I can only speak for MY shop and there are no shades of gray and no layers of uncertainty..I hide
behind nothing. >>

Commendable.

I asked: << So let's say I take my old touring bike into the shop for something and the kid in the
back, being rather unfamiliar with equipment that was made before 1985, the year of his birth,
tightens my old stem to the point that it cracks the steer tube on my 531 fork. This results in the
fork failing and me taking a horrible fall on a mountain descent, and I am now a vegetable. Will the
shop pay my medical bills? >>

Peter replied: <<I cannot speak to that shop as the average of the poeple here is about 37 and I am
53...But if I had done what you said, you or your relatives would own the shop. Why do ya think that
a bicycle shop has some sort of dispensation or exception from liability? >>

It seems that in such a case the family would have a very difficult time proving the shop's
liability. While shops get blamed for lots of things that aren't their fault, they also make a lot
of mistakes that customers don't pick up on. Confusion!

<< Like I said, you got screwed by somebody in a bike shop...find another, there are good ones and
bad ones. >>

Well I've been varying degrees of screwed by many an LBS on the front range at some point or
another, but I've also been helped out by the same shops. Often I'll get screwed and helped by the
same shop on the same day. It's not as simple as you say--good shops and bad shops. There are
great employees at bad shops and vice versa, and shops specialize in some things and blow chunks
on other things.

I haven't been into your shop yet, but I look forward to it. Honestly sounds like a great shop. I
think the average age of shop employees could be the best indicator of LBS quality. Don't worry, I
won't buy a wheel then bring it back two years later--I've never done anything like that in my life.

Plus I used to live on that block, in a house with four girls. Damn those were the days.

Next time I have several hundred dollars to spend on bike stuff I'll spend it at a local shop that
has a reasonable price for headset installs, whether or not I have a headset to install.

respectfully, Robert