Americans....Have you ever wanted to Leave?



Stiff Upper Lip said:
You know j--I have nothing but love for the southland. It's true. I take pride in my undergraduate and graduate degree both from 'Sunbelt' conference schools. Funny thing is living here in the north, I am sure that I experienced people judging me (from a resume or something) and saying, no we can't bring him in ... etc. I spent some great years in the South. Had a blast.

So, don't think that I'm against the South. I made some snide comments more in disapointment about the way the election went, but then all the 'reds' out there will have to fix the problems, while we can sit back and watch. You guys will have your hands full, so good luck. I wish nothing but the best for our country.


Thanks for that but I disagree with one thing. I like to think that WE ALL have our hands full and it will take us all to reach the best solution.
Try not to think in colors necessiarily. Red and blue make purple.... ok not a good example but you know what I mean. As my Aussie friends say.
" No worries Mate"
 
grampy bone said:
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by, "Based upon the direction of the USA". But to answer your question, I would NEVER consider living anywhere else, no matter how interesting it may be. Is there a more interesting place to live? If so, lets here it. I'm very proud to be an American and I'm very tired of all the liberal/socialist talk. And that's all it is, just talk.

I am tired of the rhetoric and cliches on both sides.
As far as countries go, I agree that you can't do better. Why else would everyone else in the world want to live here. I met a man from Pakistan that was a janitor, he said that his daughters can go to college and be whatever they want in the US. That couldn't happen in Pakistan. My friend from Bulgaria moved here and in two years bought a house. This was with an average paying job. He said he would never be able to afford a house if he stayed in Bulagaria.
Unless your independently wealthy, living abroad will be difficult. It is true Canadians like to hate Americans but ask yourself this. How many Canadians would move to the US in a heartbeat if given the chance.
 
donhix1 said:
I am tired of the rhetoric and cliches on both sides.
As far as countries go, I agree that you can't do better. Why else would everyone else in the world want to live here. I met a man from Pakistan that was a janitor, he said that his daughters can go to college and be whatever they want in the US. That couldn't happen in Pakistan. My friend from Bulgaria moved here and in two years bought a house. This was with an average paying job. He said he would never be able to afford a house if he stayed in Bulagaria.
Unless your independently wealthy, living abroad will be difficult. It is true Canadians like to hate Americans but ask yourself this. How many Canadians would move to the US in a heartbeat if given the chance.
Don't be too sure that everyone wants to live in the US. There are people in some countries who would live anywhere other than their current country because of abject poverty, truly awful political situation, war, famine. Some of them want to live in the US. And some want to live in other countries that are better than their own.

And not all of us who live abroad (ie in own own countries) are independently wealthy, yet we live well. There are whole countries which have a similar standard of living to the US.

I can see why the Bulgarians and the Pakistanis want to live in the US, but ask a few Australians or New Zealanders and you might get very different story. And if so many Canadians want to be US citizens, how come they get seriously insulted if mistaken for Americans when travelling?

(I know an elderly man who was a High Court judge in Vietnam. He is now a street sweeper in Australia. And a very happy man.)

cheers,
SteveA
 
donhix1 said:
I am tired of the rhetoric and cliches on both sides.
As far as countries go, I agree that you can't do better. Why else would everyone else in the world want to live here. I met a man from Pakistan that was a janitor, he said that his daughters can go to college and be whatever they want in the US. That couldn't happen in Pakistan. My friend from Bulgaria moved here and in two years bought a house. This was with an average paying job. He said he would never be able to afford a house if he stayed in Bulagaria.
Unless your independently wealthy, living abroad will be difficult. It is true Canadians like to hate Americans but ask yourself this. How many Canadians would move to the US in a heartbeat if given the chance.

Well....as a Canuck I can certainly say I enjoy visiting stateside, I generally like Americans for the most part and understand that we share a unique relationship here in NA. I do not, however, have any desire to relocate there as I firmly believe we have a real good thing here in the Great White North.Kinda like a well kept secret but the crocs and sharks won`t get you here it is the bears and moose....lol. Yeah...we have issues but so does every other nation on the planet.

Perspective. All comes down to perspective.

The last I heard the wait to emigrate to Canada was still quite long so not everyone feels the desire to move to the USA and I would hazard a guess that many other Commonwealth nations experience a similar demand. I figure there is enough 3rd world folk to go around for all of us. I certainly see the diverse cultural makeup of my part of Canada everyday when I take my kids to school.

Be wary of those bitter Canucks who say all of us hate Americans. Most of my fellow countrymen do not think this way. Most of us are smart enough to realize the importance of our relationship in terms of economics, enviroment and security. That said we will disagree over issues...especially foreign policy issues, but that is because we have different views of the world.

Again...it is a matter of perspectives. Most Americans look at the world from the position of being the lone superpower and the advantages that entails.Most Canadians look at the world from a position of being a middle class power where diplomacy and international law is important.

We here in Canuckistan find ourselves in a strange situation....we are geographically and (quasi) culturely linked to America yet have a political system/government more in kin with Europe and the rest of the Commonwealth.

I like to think we have the best of both worlds. It ain`t perfect but it is still pretty good. The thing is it is not always greener on the other side of the fence cause it does always come down to ....perspective.

Take care all and ride safe. :)
 
SteveA said:
Don't be too sure that everyone wants to live in the US. There are people in some countries who would live anywhere other than their current country because of abject poverty, truly awful political situation, war, famine. Some of them want to live in the US. And some want to live in other countries that are better than their own.

And not all of us who live abroad (ie in own own countries) are independently wealthy, yet we live well. There are whole countries which have a similar standard of living to the US.

I can see why the Bulgarians and the Pakistanis want to live in the US, but ask a few Australians or New Zealanders and you might get very different story. And if so many Canadians want to be US citizens, how come they get seriously insulted if mistaken for Americans when travelling?

(I know an elderly man who was a High Court judge in Vietnam. He is now a street sweeper in Australia. And a very happy man.)

cheers,
SteveA
I probably shouldn't say everyone want to move to the US, I am sure that the quality of life for many people in their own country and with their own family makes the quality of life so that moving to another country never entered their mind.
I think that when people want to immigrate, they have to go with fate as their is a lottery in most countries and luck is involved.
Immigrants to the US are now the highly educated more so when it was the huddled masses of the early 1900's who came over without a penny.
I also like Canada as Vancouver and Victoria are very nice cities. Canada also encourages more diversity as you can tell by the number of radio stations in different languages. Canada seems to be pretty bicycle friendly. Because of our war and other things the US dollar doesn't go as far as it used to.
I am not holding the US as perfect model that everyone should copy. The US has a lot of problems that are much more serious than gay marriage.
 
Stiff Upper Lip said:
FROM SLATE.COM:

But there is so much more to Canada. Just ask any one of the many Canadians who are lurking about in your midst. (We lurk because we love.) There are great reasons, beyond frostbite and pink currency, to seriously consider relocation to the Great White. But still, Canada is still not for everyone. So here's a quiz, for those of you still considering joining the Bush-dodgers relocating to Canada. It isn't about loonies or toonies or socialized medicine. It's about the important stuff—stuff that will determine whether you really want to be a Canadian or just dress like one:

1) Do you like to shoot people? Circle one: yes / no

(If you answered "yes" you should know that there is no Second Amendment or equivalent thereof in the Canadian constitution. Perhaps as a consequence only 22 percent of Canadians own guns as opposed to 49 percent of Americans, while handguns and assault rifles are verboten. Perhaps related to that statistic, the violent crime rate in Canada is 10 times lower than in the United States. This may have no connection to guns, though, and rather a strong correlation to general mellowness of the Canadian temperament. (See Question 3, below.)

2) Have you recently shot someone? Circle one: yes / no

(If you answered yes, you may find Canada appealing. The Canadian courts abolished capital punishment in the '70s, and Canada hasn't seen an execution since 1962. Texas hasn't seen one since about 11 seconds ago.)

3) Do you like to smoke pot? Circle one: yes / no / only for medicinal reasons / only with John Ashcroft

(Judges in at least three provinces have now decriminalized marijuana possession and the federal government is considering decriminalizing it in small quantities. We are advised that the feds also grow great masses of it in large underground caverns and may soon expand the use of these caverns as shelters to which the entire country would retreat in the event of a terrorist attack or to spur mass-munchies in case of a national Doritos glut. And only in Canada would you find marijuana advocates genuinely arguing that people actually drive better stoned.)

4) Are you covered in vast quantities of coarse, black fur? Circle one: yes / no

(Don't kid yourself. It is freakin' cold up there. While 90 percent of Canadians live within 100 miles of the U.S. border, the places they live north of are Green Bay and Buffalo.)

5) Do you like to wear white sneakers (Canadians call these "running shoes") with jeans? Circle one: yes / no

(Canadians are an extraordinarily stylish people, without the excess snobbery of Europeans; and most of them manifest this by being strikingly well-shod. Canadians generally find themselves perplexed by shiny tracksuits, leggings, baseball caps, and sweaters with reindeer on them.)

6) Do you generally find being alive to be just fine? Circle one: yes / no

(For some reason Canadians seem to live longer, be healthier, and pay less for these privileges. It has something to do with national health insurance, adequate primary care, particularly for children, and the availability of quality prescription drugs. (See, e.g., Question 3, above.)

7) Are you gay, or, alternatively, do you suspect that the institution of marriage should be open to all couples who are committed to living together and/or raising children in a loving environment? Circle one: yes / no

(Six and possibly soon seven Canadian provinces currently permit gay marriage. Before leaving office last year, Prime Minister Jean Chretien referred the question of the constitutionality of same-sex marriage to the Supreme Court for an opinion. The court hasn't yet decided the question.)

8) Are your political views either too complicated to be expressed in two-word bumper stickers, or, alternatively, do you find that you just don't much care about your neighbors' views on guns/the unborn/or which deity is their copilot? Circle one: yes / no

(Canadians tend to subscribe to a live-and-let-live view of political ideology. It's not that Canadians don't care about their politics or moral issues. It's simply that they appear to operate under the assumption that, whatever their personal beliefs might be, you, their neighbor, may not care all that much to learn every detail of them on the way to the 7-Eleven. As a consequence, T-shirts in Canada are still funny, signage is still commercial, and bumpers are reserved for smashing into telephone poles after cottage parties. [Cottage: Def. Sprawling lakefront estate in rural Canada, quaintly Hamptonesque but with indoor plumbing optional.])

9) Are you bored to death of razor-thin margins between radical ideologues in every aspect of public life? Circle one: yes / no

(The 5-4 split on the Canadian Supreme Court is male/female as opposed to crazy/crazier.)

10) Does the idea of pluralism appeal to you? Not just in the sense that I-want-to-be-surrounded-by-lots-of-diverse-and-fascinating-people-who-all-worship-my-Lord, but rather, in the sense, that a country is a richer place for competing values, religions and cultures? Circle one: yes / no

(When Canadians talk about "multiculturalism," it doesn't only mean they're for blondes hanging out with redheads. Canadian TV shows actually teem with racially diverse characters, and the major national catalogs have been known to feature models in wheelchairs. Moreover, Canada has not one but two official languages, and no one seems to be suffering for it. Indeed, some believe it makes them sort of interesting. Certainly it will be interesting when the thousands of Bush-dodgers someday return to the United States to visit relatives and amuse them by explaining that the Teton Mountains actually mean "big boobies" in French.)


Dahlia Lithwick is a Canadian living in America. Alex Lithwick, her brother, is a Canadian living in Canada.


LOL.....good one. That is another quaint Canadian trait...we don`t take ourselves overly serious and actually love to laugh at ourselves. Canadian satire(especially political) is alive and well. Helps keep the nation grounded.

Politically we can get as serious as you "pubs" and "dems" but at the end of the day a politician is a politician( :mad: ) regardless of what party they belong too. With the exception of Trudeau we seldom elevate our leaders to such lofty expectations. Our election ballots are WAY simpler than yours too....after watching your election last week it looks like you dudes vote for everything but the color of the kitchen sink.

I figure you need to get a viable 3rd political party into the mix. If you have a centralist party that would appeal to the moderate conservatives and liberals it would help keep the right and left wingers less radical and partisan. For the record we have 3 true national parties....the right(Canadian Alliance), the centre(Liberals) and the left( NDP). Mix in the PQ(Quebec Regionalists) and we have some choices other than tweedle dum or tweedle dee.

Oh yeah.....our beer is better too........4% alcohol is a lite beer. :D
 
donhix1 said:
I probably shouldn't say everyone want to move to the US, I am sure that the quality of life for many people in their own country and with their own family makes the quality of life so that moving to another country never entered their mind.
I think that when people want to immigrate, they have to go with fate as their is a lottery in most countries and luck is involved.
Immigrants to the US are now the highly educated more so when it was the huddled masses of the early 1900's who came over without a penny.
I also like Canada as Vancouver and Victoria are very nice cities. Canada also encourages more diversity as you can tell by the number of radio stations in different languages. Canada seems to be pretty bicycle friendly. Because of our war and other things the US dollar doesn't go as far as it used to.
I am not holding the US as perfect model that everyone should copy. The US has a lot of problems that are much more serious than gay marriage.

Yup........show me a nation that doesn`t have social issues and I will call it paradise.....or a lie. Nations are just projections of the people who live in them and people are imperfect.

Gotta say I sure get jealous when I read of you Yanks cycling in February. I just broke out my trainer last week........ :mad:
 
rolfdevinci said:
Yup........show me a nation that doesn`t have social issues and I will call it paradise.....or a lie. Nations are just projections of the people who live in them and people are imperfect.

Gotta say I sure get jealous when I read of you Yanks cycling in February. I just broke out my trainer last week........ :mad:

If you lived in Victoria and Vancouver and don't mind a little rain you can ride in February. Also there is an indoor velodrome in Burnaby.
 
I heard yesterday on the news that hits on Canada's Immigration website jumped by 100,000 the day after the election results were announced.
 
donhix1 said:
If you lived in Victoria and Vancouver and don't mind a little rain you can ride in February. Also there is an indoor velodrome in Burnaby.

LOL....unfortunately I am on the other coast but southern British Columbia is the closest thing we have to Canadian tropics. A rider in our club(young and single) recently moved to Victoria for that very reason.
 
The fact that you would ever ponder leaving this great country intrigues me. Yes, there is a myriad of other places to live, but no place that can't be emulated in this country. We have all the elements found abroad: snow, rain, heat, drought, etc...; we have all the topography: mountains, rivers, deserts, plains, etc.... And most of all, we have the PRIVILEDGE of living in the USA. I know you and I disagree about most everything, but that is a beautiful thing to me.
 
anthonyjf said:
The fact that you would ever ponder leaving this great country intrigues me. Yes, there is a myriad of other places to live, but no place that can't be emulated in this country. We have all the elements found abroad: snow, rain, heat, drought, etc...; we have all the topography: mountains, rivers, deserts, plains, etc.... And most of all, we have the PRIVILEDGE of living in the USA. I know you and I disagree about most everything, but that is a beautiful thing to me.

It's a privilege most anyone can have regardless of citizenship, provided they’re white and speak fluent English. I’ve lived in both Canada and the US and spent a good deal of time outside North America. I’ve been to 37 states in the US and 7 provinces in Canada. I’ve met illegals like myself in every one. The only thing different about different states is the weather, topography and how it affects infrastructure. The people are the same for the most part, accepted as “one of us” or feared, shunned and in some cases entirely disenfranchised. Products are the same, consumerism is rampant and children are taught knowingly or not to always think of themselves first and not to concern themselves with their fellow man. People in America are beginning to be afraid to speak their minds when taking a critical look at regulation & governance, that’s not America before 9/11. That it should be afterwards stinks of defeat. It’s happened to me many times, talking with friends and strangers, to hear from context that it is apparently okay again to refer to groups of people as sand-****ers or towel heads when 4 years ago it was just a matter of waiting for the baby-boomers to die that we should be able to claim that only an immeasurably tiny percentage of fraidy cats looked at the world that way anymore. I’m too tired of the US to stay just because I make more money there and can buy more things. My quality of life and security is much higher just a touch north and my high taxes mean I have smooth streets to ride and mass-transit when I don’t want to. Until it returns to a democracy, remembers about seperation of church & state and frees itself of institutionalized racism I'll only visit family there.
 
Stiff Upper Lip said:
Does anyone here know anything about Basel, Switzerland?

We might have an opportunity to live and work there for a while.

Let me know of you have any thoughts and save the patriot nonsense for another forum....


I know their city is hosting the European Cycle Messenger Championship 2005
http://www.meobasel.ch/
I'll be there doing promotional stuff for a few companies, sounds & looks pretty sweet from what my friends who have been there say. Cycling city, like most of Europe
 
Glowingrod said:
It's a privilege most anyone can have regardless of citizenship, provided they’re white and speak fluent English. I’ve lived in both Canada and the US and spent a good deal of time outside North America. I’ve been to 37 states in the US and 7 provinces in Canada. I’ve met illegals like myself in every one. The only thing different about different states is the weather, topography and how it affects infrastructure. The people are the same for the most part, accepted as “one of us” or feared, shunned and in some cases entirely disenfranchised. Products are the same, consumerism is rampant and children are taught knowingly or not to always think of themselves first and not to concern themselves with their fellow man. People in America are beginning to be afraid to speak their minds when taking a critical look at regulation & governance, that’s not America before 9/11. That it should be afterwards stinks of defeat. It’s happened to me many times, talking with friends and strangers, to hear from context that it is apparently okay again to refer to groups of people as sand-****ers or towel heads when 4 years ago it was just a matter of waiting for the baby-boomers to die that we should be able to claim that only an immeasurably tiny percentage of fraidy cats looked at the world that way anymore. I’m too tired of the US to stay just because I make more money there and can buy more things. My quality of life and security is much higher just a touch north and my high taxes mean I have smooth streets to ride and mass-transit when I don’t want to. Until it returns to a democracy, remembers about seperation of church & state and frees itself of institutionalized racism I'll only visit family there.

That is a lot to consume. Obviously you have major reservatioins about living in the US. I agree that it is not a perfect country, but I think everyone should be given the opportunity to grow up in a country were they at least have a chance of living a good life. I grew up in a middle class family, borrowed 60k from the government to go to college; paid every penny back, and have a good job that supports my wife and kids. That is what I meant by saying it is a priviledge to live in this country (I suppose any democracy). I mean, what kind of life would someone have if they were born in Sommalia??
 
anthonyjf said:
That is a lot to consume. Obviously you have major reservatioins about living in the US. I agree that it is not a perfect country, but I think everyone should be given the opportunity to grow up in a country were they at least have a chance of living a good life. I grew up in a middle class family, borrowed 60k from the government to go to college; paid every penny back, and have a good job that supports my wife and kids. That is what I meant by saying it is a priviledge to live in this country (I suppose any democracy). I mean, what kind of life would someone have if they were born in Sommalia??

Oh I'd agree with you there, Comparably it's a good starting place the US is. It's just slid backwards a bit socially since I've been voting (something I still do of course) Very disheartening to see that as a result of outside influence, and powers that take advantage of that. I added that to my cycling advocacy to outweigh any cons of leaving the states the only ones that held true were slightly less money and the bothers of living illegally for a bit. I'll be dual soon and it'll be a relief. It's also as an American that I'm able to live abroad, many folks in other countries don't have that option. I can fairly well go where I please, and if it's somewhere off the map I just sew on a Canadian flag for added protection.
 
Telegram Sam said:
Yes- your right, the ineducable masses have chosen their leader. Thanks to the polling places in Wal-Mart and Fellowship Halls across the country, we now have a moral visionary at our helm...
God told him (in his fourties) to put down the little silver spoon and the Highball glass and rule the world!!!! Away we go for round 2.
I for one will salute the flag with tears of joy now that such a strong moral figure (hiccup), such a brave leader (have you seen the tape of the goat story on 911???) has been chosen.
And his revolutionary stand on spending money hand over fist and then telling us all we won't have raises in our taxes...surely such a magical being must **** money as well (or god hands it to him from the heavens). And that volunteer army he plans to sustain, why just today I saw droves of young adults waiting in lines to sign up!
Yes- I want to leave so I can go to Iraq and fight for a cause that is so heavily supported in...Uzbekistan....and Iceland...and maybe Samoa. I know I could find those weapons of mass destruction and set the record straight. It certainly makes me feel safer at night- I talked to my neighbor Osama and he is happy about the outcome of the election too.
The only thing infesting America is people who think religion and government should be tandem, Iraq and 911 are related, that running Osama out of Afganistan means we DIDN"T let him back in, and that Wal-Mart is a great place to shop. ****- a thousand more fools born every ****ing minute.
Sorry if I seem a little cross- the stifling tax burden I am about to recieve is more then a little irritating

Good on you Sam,

I've never understood these rediculous born again types, I have always found them to be grasping hippocrites; Be an abject goose for the first half of your life and turn over a new page and start again.

Don't bother recompensing those that you damaged prior to seeing the light hang on to you ill-gotten advantage, assemble with the rest of the flock on Sunday and celebrate what a good citizen you are!

This is very appealling and the bigger the A**hole you were in previous life, the more appealling it is.

Kind regards,
 
I travelled extensively but also spent months living with host families in various countries. If given the challenge I'd even pack up my bags and head into places such as North Korea or outermost Mongolia. I consider the experience character-building.
Needless to say, I met many Americans in these far-away places and have found the ones who knock about in the world to be quite broad-minded and interesting. One guy from Texas went to live in Moscow and made enough money in 5 years to quit work for the rest of his life. He went on to buy a very nice home in Estonia - a place he told me he enjoyed very much. I've also met Australians who live a long way from home.
If I had my way, every student would be sent overseas to some other country for a year. If people don't travel, they risk having a narrow view of the world around them and living in a cocoon. This applies to Brits and Europeans as well.



Stiff Upper Lip said:
Based upon the direction of the USA and the myriad of interesting places to live would you consider moving abroad? Which place is most appealing?
 
Carrera said:
I travelled extensively but also spent months living with host families in various countries. If given the challenge I'd even pack up my bags and head into places such as North Korea or outermost Mongolia. I consider the experience character-building.
Needless to say, I met many Americans in these far-away places and have found the ones who knock about in the world to be quite broad-minded and interesting. One guy from Texas went to live in Moscow and made enough money in 5 years to quit work for the rest of his life. He went on to buy a very nice home in Estonia - a place he told me he enjoyed very much. I've also met Australians who live a long way from home.
If I had my way, every student would be sent overseas to some other country for a year. If people don't travel, they risk having a narrow view of the world around them and living in a cocoon. This applies to Brits and Europeans as well.

Carrera,

I also travel every year and although I have been doing it since my teens there is still plenty of places to go. Although I am now with in a month of 57 years old I have not yet travelled to North Korea. I would be interested in travelling there if this "axis of evil" statement wasn't quite so fresh.

I would avoid the compelling of students to travel, most would chose to do so if they did not accept the propaganda they are fed in the media and travelled to one of these countries they are encouraged to despise. Once they get started they don't seem to stop. That is my obeservation anyway. :D

Kind regards,
 
Stiff Upper Lip said:
Does anyone here know anything about Basel, Switzerland?

We might have an opportunity to live and work there for a while.

Let me know of you have any thoughts and save the patriot nonsense for another forum....

I will try and ask my friend Thomas tommrow. He is from Switzerland and just got back here a couple of weeks ago. He travels back and forth several times a year.
He is cool and an "old school skier" like me and he knows so many pro cyclist it is truly unbelieveable.
Hopefully I will remember and I will get back with you.
 

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