Are we there yet?

[Felt_Rider]

Swampy, I was wondering a couple of things, but first of all props to you for doing the Davis Double.

I wondered what type of structured training you did in preparation and I saw a post of yours on the power forum that kind of outlined your typical training. It did not appear that you did boat loads of miles in preparation. Is that correct?

If not it goes to the second thing, which I believe most of us would agree. I am not sure if I misinterpreted one "old guy's" post that implied to one doing the LOTOJA that if he wanted to do well than he must do long mileage training. I do not agree with that statement because I have for a number of years done century events without doing 100 mile training rides. This year I did longer mileage training because I enjoyed being out on the bike this spring, but not because I believed it was going to make me better.

Anyway I was curious what your longest training distance this spring was before doing the Davis Double?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .

Swampy, I was wondering a couple of things, but first of all props to you for doing the Davis Double.

I wondered what type of structured training you did in preparation and I saw a post of yours on the power forum that kind of outlined your typical training. It did not appear that you did boat loads of miles in preparation. Is that correct?

If not it goes to the second thing, which I believe most of us would agree. I am not sure if I misinterpreted one "old guy's" post that implied to one doing the LOTOJA that if he wanted to do well than he must do long mileage training. I do not agree with that statement because I have for a number of years done century events without doing 100 mile training rides. This year I did longer mileage training because I enjoyed being out on the bike this spring, but not because I believed it was going to make me better.

Anyway I was curious what your longest training distance this spring was before doing the Davis Double?

I can't speak for Swampy and Davis, but I've done quite well at LOTOJA during seasons where I never rode over 70 miles in preparation for the 206 mile one day race. Cameron Hoffman a three time winner at LOTOJA in the pro, 1/2 field has posted quite a bit about his training that also does not rely on really long rides or anything approaching the full distance of the event.

Having said that, in the past year I've been playing with a periodic 'over distance' ride along the lines of Hunter's 'kitchen sink' rides, IOW long days where you hit some hard efforts including things like 2x20s at L4, some L5 and L6 and even L7 work during a big ride that racks up 250-300+ TSS. These aren't bread and butter week in, week out rides but as Hunter suggests they do seem to lead to increased fitness if you do one every third or fourth week blended into a more typical structured schedule with more modest weekly hours and mileage. Those big days require some extra rest days or extra low end work days before resuming normal training but they do seem to add something valuable to the mix and if I were prepping for LOTOJA again I'd strongly consider doing the periodic big overload day. But all in all I'd still focus on sustainable power and to a lesser extent L5 work and wouldn't recommend the typical 'ride long miles a lot' advice.

YMMV,
-Dave

 

[Felt_Rider]

Thanks Dave

The one thing that I struggled to manage was doing 100 mile training rides and rack up 330 to 350 TSS. I found for me personally that the guideline by Dr. Coggan to be true. Once I was over 300 TSS I needed at least two days of rest and sometimes 3 to really be effectual in the next training session of high L3/L4 efforts. A number of times I tried to train a couple days after but could only muster low L3. I would be way too sore to go for L4.

So on one hand the 100 mile ride racked up really good CTL, but then I would loose in the following days. I also started experiencing some wear and tear on the body that I was not experiencing with the shorter duration, consecutive days of training. But this may be the good plan is to do one every third or fourth week like you say. One of the reasons I wanted to do longer miles this spring was, as mentioned, I just liked being out on the bike and the other was getting my confidence up that my neck and back would cope with extra time in the saddle.

Since my two events have passed I have had some time to reflect on the pros and cons.
I am now back to shorter miles on Saturday's. I got the 7 am start and we were done with the 57 miles fairly early and I went back out today and did a couple of hours, which amounted to 90 minutes of L3. Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday I will be able to do my indoor intervals so I hope that my CTL will start picking back up again rather than a huge spike on Saturday and then a drop because I was too sore to train.

My question then is:
Is there ever a point in time that one could adapt to the training load of 330+ TSS and following consecutive training days?
With the potential FT improvement the 300+ TSS is moving as well so adaptation is always chasing the new load. It seems to be reasonable then to say one would never really get used to a 330 to 350 TSS, but then there are those pros that are doing that type of load in stage races in consecutive days. Gets me confused as I think about it. I am not sure my ramblings make sense.

Based on your response I believe you have already answered and pointed out for Cameron as well or at least pointed out that one can do these ultra mile events without beating up the body.

 

[swampy1970]

Swampy, I was wondering a couple of things, but first of all props to you for doing the Davis Double.
I wondered what type of structured training you did in preparation and I saw a post of yours on the power forum that kind of outlined your typical training. It did not appear that you did boat loads of miles in preparation. Is that correct?
If not it goes to the second thing, which I believe most of us would agree. I am not sure if I misinterpreted one "old guy's" post that implied to one doing the LOTOJA that if he wanted to do well than he must do long mileage training. I do not agree with that statement because I have for a number of years done century events without doing 100 mile training rides. This year I did longer mileage training because I enjoyed being out on the bike this spring, but not because I believed it was going to make me better.
Anyway I was curious what your longest training distance this spring was before doing the Davis Double?

Thanks but the big one day ride is next weekend - that's if they manage to open Ebbetts pass in time... Got my thermals and crampons ready As far as distance goes I don't think I did more than 80 miles but most of the weekend rides were about 60 to 70 miles, just me myself and I, going hard until I either ran out of gas or made it home riding strong... After doing that on Saturday's doing it again on Sunday's is often 'interesting' especially on a somewhat restricted diet. ... And that's about it. As you probably noticed in the other post my training does seem to lack what might be typically termed "structured" but it's all structured around weight loss. I find if I do too much L4 then I either end up only losing one pound a week or end up losing two pounds per week for a few weeks and then feeling like crud and if youve got 30+lbs to lose to get to race weight then its 2lbs a week or nothing. Only 12lbs to go... The end of July isn't gonna come soon enough. As for the >300 TSS question - you'll get there. It just takes time...

 

[jsirabella]

While nothing too eventful this week I wanted to ask a couple things. I have now been adding long sunday rides from 3-4 hours long which is more to test the sciatica and see if I can put in a few good efforts in between. This Sunday worked really well as got in a couple SST efforts and spent over 3 hours in the saddle with no issues. In fact as opposed to couch potato mode I had additional work around the house to take care of also.

It would seem though that as I have been adding more time meaning I upped the weekly ride ~2 hours and the weekend rides ~4 hours I have taken down the hour long watt sessions. I am averaging usually ~230 for an hour and ~240 for 20 minutes but the 250 seem like walking through mud. Today I did a 3 x 10 ~250 in the 2nd hour and it was tough. I actually had to stop for about 1 minute and let the bike roll and re-start. My ftp is 245.

I looked at the power profile chart that gives you your FT for a 30 day period How does it calculate it? Does it look at your best 60 minute effort over a 30 day period? Average it?. Cause when I was just focusing on shorter harder efforts I was into the start of cat 4 area but when I started to focus more on time in the saddle I am now dipping into cat 5 area. I believe it is telling me I am just not going hard enough for the last 30 days compared to the 30 days prior to that. Correct?

Also what is with tires lately. In October I bought these bontrager racelite hardcase which in the past would last me forever. They are slow as heck as I sometimes feel them peeling off the ground but they are tough. My rear tire is completely chewed up! I can see the inner case in some parts. I guess they are making them cheaper now. Since I am doing mostly training and commuting now I will just replace it with the same or maybe armadillos. Hear alot about these gatorcase (sp?) that are good for training and racing. Have to see but this has been a strange year for the tire wear.

-js

 

[daveryanwyoming]

The power profile chart in WKO+ simply shows you the best effort for the standard durations during the time period of interest. In WKO+ 3.0 you can choose to either display full 60 minute efforts in the FTP column or you can choose to display 95% of your best 20 minute effort over the relevant time periods. But there is no averaging, no prediction of what you might have been capable of based on Monod models, NP or other estimation approaches it just shows you what you did.

So if you didn't actually go out and try to ride a best possible 60 minute effort (or 20 minute effort if you use WKO+ 3.0 and choose to display FTP based on the 95% of 20 minute approach) then you won't show high numbers in that column. It doesn't mean you aren't capable of higher numbers, just that you didn't attempt them. Same thing for the other columns, if you don't actually try some full out sprints you won't see high numbers in the 5 second column and many folks avoid full out 1 minute efforts like the plague as they hurt like hell so many folks are low in the 1 minute column.

So if you want to see what you're actually capable of for 60 minutes and want that to show up on your power profile chart you've got to actually do a full hour as hard as you can ride it or at least do a full 20 minutes as hard as you can ride it and use the appropriate display option in the WKO+ 3.0 power profiler.

-Dave

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by jsirabella .

Also what is with tires lately. In October I bought these bontrager racelite hardcase which in the past would last me forever. They are slow as heck as I sometimes feel them peeling off the ground but they are tough. My rear tire is completely chewed up! I can see the inner case in some parts. I guess they are making them cheaper now. Since I am doing mostly training and commuting now I will just replace it with the same or maybe armadillos. Hear alot about these gatorcase (sp?) that are good for training and racing. Have to see but this has been a strange year for the tire wear.

-js

a little off topic but I've been using the 24mm Vittoria Open Pave CG clinchers. A little heavier than a true race tire, but I've been logging lots of miles along 9W and Flatbush Ave out to Floyd. Not a single cut, seem to be wearing well, and feel as responsive/fast rolling as a tire in my world needs to be. They're no Armadillos but are so much nicer rolling. Pricey but hey, so is most good stuff in this sport.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by danfoz .




a little off topic but I've been using the 24mm Vittoria Open Pave CG clinchers....

+1 on the Open Pave CGs. They're my wet weather racing tires which means I've ridden them in four or five rainy road races this season and they've performed really nicely in all of them. They're very fast (especially when paired with latex tubes but that means pumping up before every ride), are durable and handle great in wet conditions. I wouldn't hesitate to race them wet or dry if my tubulars were out of commission. They're not Gatorskins or Armadillos but pretty tough for a fast tire.

-Dave

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by jsirabella .


I looked at the power profile chart that gives you your FT for a 30 day period How does it calculate it? Does it look at your best 60 minute effort over a 30 day period? Average it?. Cause when I was just focusing on shorter harder efforts I was into the start of cat 4 area but when I started to focus more on time in the saddle I am now dipping into cat 5 area. I believe it is telling me I am just not going hard enough for the last 30 days compared to the 30 days prior to that. Correct?

Also what is with tires lately. In October I bought these bontrager racelite hardcase which in the past would last me forever. They are slow as heck as I sometimes feel them peeling off the ground but they are tough. My rear tire is completely chewed up! I can see the inner case in some parts. I guess they are making them cheaper now. Since I am doing mostly training and commuting now I will just replace it with the same or maybe armadillos. Hear alot about these gatorcase (sp?) that are good for training and racing. Have to see but this has been a strange year for the tire wear.

-js

The power profile chart is strictly watts/kg over the time period shown taken from actual efforts. Of course this means you should be regularly keeping your weight in the profile upto date.

Tires. Continental GP4000S. I get almost a year out of them. Very grippy and puncture proof. I did have one puncture on the last set - so that makes it one puncture is several years. Not too shabby, especially as most of the time I was somewhere between 170 and 185lbs. Stuck on a new set last night as the rear was looking decidedly "flat topped". Definitely not a tire to stick on a trainer, especially with a knurled roller. I did that with an old Conti "Force" rear tire and ended up with a little pile of rubber shavings on the floor after one week of training.

 

[jsirabella]

dave->I have been out of it for a while! Checked my version and I am using 2.1. Alot can happen in a year and half. I purchased the upgrade and after a bit of playing with it, I got the migration to work. Really nice layout but scatter graphs and quadrant analysis, my head hurts just trying to think about what it means. I see what you mean now that in the power profile you can select FT based upon several options. You are right if I do not keep trying to do my best 60 on a regular basis or for that matter my best 5 min, etc than I will probably not see them budge all that often. Currently I have switched modes a bit back to more time in saddle with not as hard on the efforts. I think it is a better idea for now instead of trying to chase numbers but I do have to push myself every so often and see where I fall in the numbers.

swampy/dave->Now that I am 165 the numbers jump with less watts. When I was ~190, my 260 did not mean as much now at 165 with my 245. If I can get back to 260 and keep my 165 I can be at close to a 3.5, than drop 5 lbs and I will be a bit above 3.5. I think I can start to do some damage than.

dan/dave/swampy->I will look into the open pave CGs as since they can survive 9W and flatbush that is good enough for me.

-js

 

[swampy1970]

JS,

If you have lots of pesky little hills in the places you ride then see how much weight you can lose. Weight makes a massive difference, especially when you're having hit every little hill hard in order to either feel like you're going fast or just to hold the wheels of others.


If you need a little 'motivation' for a good FTP test, sign up for an end of year 40km TT. Show up, ride the first 20 to 30 minutes at whatever you believe your current FTP is and then raise it about 10 watts. I reckon you could do that...


"The power of The Force is insignificant compared to the motivational powers of a time trial" Darth Vader.



... or will I find your lack of faith disturbing?



Hopefully, the Open Pave CG's are a different compound than the Corsa CX's - cause I had a million and one cuts (OK - about a dozen or so) in the CX's I last tried for a few weeks. I used to love the Corsa CX tubulars back in the 90's but I found the road clinchers a few years ago to be one step above garbage out in the country roads. Might be great for city use but you won't find me riding on them anytime soon.

That said, one came with the Zipp disk I bought a while back and it seemed OK during the 10 mile ride I stuck on it. I would have been ****** if I'd popped that... LOL.

 

[danfoz]

@ Swampy >> those CX's, open or tubbies, were (are) my favorite tires but do they ever cut easy and wear fast. I eventually got tired of flatting on training rides and then brought them out for race days. Then I got tired of flatting on race days... I enjoyed the Conti 4000's for awhile, and really like the way they ride but unfortunately flats on those killed my Nancy Morgenstein RR season closer last year and then the season opener at Central Park this year.

The CGs casings are supposedly fully kevlar lined (not just the center strip), thus the substantial weight difference between them (it's not just the extra mm) - 210 vs 270 grams fo the CG. The noise they make when spitting sharp pebbles out to the side is very loud and unlike anything I've heard before. Heavy on paper, but you don't feel it on the road, 320tpi keeps them rolling fast and supple. I may swap them out for something lighter at Catskills later this year.

These days the peace of mind that I'm going to roll (as opposed to walk) across the finish line, beats knowing my tire is 5gm lighter than the guy next to me any day /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by swampy1970 .
"The power of The Force is insignificant compared to the motivational powers of a time trial" Darth Vader.

... or will I find your lack of faith disturbing?

There was a serious disturbance in the force on lap 4 of the 20k Floyd Bennett TT this past weekend when I ran out of fluids midway and had to spend 30 seconds massaging a calf cramp out (evident by the big dip)... somehow managed to get back into a groove at the end... the motivational powers of the TT!

This effort was good enough for dead last in the 4's. I've been doing the Time Crunch stuff as some of you know but neglecting good old fashioned mileage and FTP work. My repeatable power on the top end and bag of tricks is usually enough to get me a top 25 out of 100 usual suspects in a mass start, but my ultimate limiter needs some serious work!

 

[swampy1970]

Fluids... on a 20K TT?

Was it 110F outside and you were wearing a full aero helmet, with visor, no vents and a long sleeve fully rubberized skinsuit - like the Soviets used to use back in the 80's and then worn by "the gimp" in Pulp Fiction?

If you cramped due to dehydration then you were in that state before you started and it was compounded by the effort of the event and some fluid loss during it.

If you were going "full gas" then the cramp was most likely due to lack of conditioning for that effort - the motivational powers of a TT getting you to ride beyond what you normally perceive as very hard in training.

 

[danfoz]

Haha no but I did take a wrong turn going out and had to end up doing a mini-TT just to get to the start on time. It was hot and I did have an aero helmet, but good venting relatively speaking so no blame shifting available there.

Bottom line was I didn't drink enough water along with my morning coffee, another valuable lesson learned. Total fluid intake for the morning, the 45 minute riding commute out there, and the TT itself: 3 swigs of H2O after brushing my teeth, 1 cup of coffee, 1 bottle water, 1 bottle gatorade. Maybe TMI for some, but had some diarrhea the evening before and morning of - I was probably just seriously under hydrated.

 

[swampy1970]

Originally Posted by danfoz .

Haha no but I did take a wrong turn going out and had to end up doing a mini-TT just to get to the start on time. It was hot and I did have an aero helmet, but good venting relatively speaking so no blame shifting available there.

Bottom line was I didn't drink enough water along with my morning coffee, another valuable lesson learned. Total fluid intake for the morning, the 45 minute riding commute out there, and the TT itself: 3 swigs of H2O after brushing my teeth, 1 cup of coffee, 1 bottle water, 1 bottle gatorade. Maybe TMI for some, but had some diarrhea the evening before and morning of - I was probably just seriously under hydrated.

If you've had something that's forced you to have the squirts then you'd do well to stay away from Gatorade or anything that sugary. Pedialyte, or the knock off generic equivalents, are a lot kinder on the stomach.

That said, unless I had an absolute requirement to ride a TT, I'd stay away from a long, at threshold, effort when in that condition... not just out of common sense but also for the fact that being seen in sharted shorts/skinsuit really isn't the best. My innards never felt the best after 20+minutes pegged at the limit when I was in the best of health.

 

[danfoz]

I'll try the Pedialyte, thanks. I wouldn't have even bothered leaving home if unwell, or dumping in my shorts was a remote possibility /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif. I felt alright afterward pretty soon as well.

Pride probably played some role, time spent on training, $$ spent on new helmet, but it's the case you laid out. I'm doing two TT's this year and that was one of them, fully sanctioned events around NYC are pretty uncommon and I had been singularly focused for the month leading up. My pulse was a little high on the commute out and knew I wasn't 100% but otherwise am fitter than I've been in a long time and had been feeling good in the weeks prior. The thing was as is said in motion.

On the upside, a local photographer took some great photos of the event. Those prints will live forever, the one or two minutes I lost will soon fade.

 

[lanierb]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider .
In our area there is the Covington Century charity event that attracts upper Cat level cyclists and they market the event for those wanting to break the 4 hour mark as

Seriously? Is it downhill? Most local crits I've done don't end up with a 25mph avg and they are way less than 100mi. I'm not saying it's not possible with a good strong group working together, but it can't have been done by many people. Heck, doing 25miles in < 1hr is fairly hard with full TT gear, and that's with no stops or traffic lights.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by lanierb .



Seriously? Is it downhill? Most local crits I've done don't end up with a 25mph avg and they are way less than 100mi. I'm not saying it's not possible with a good strong group working together, but it can't have been done by many people. Heck, doing 25miles in < 1hr is fairly hard with full TT gear, and that's with no stops or traffic lights.

Yes, supposedly many have done it over the years and No it is not quite downhill /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif
But according to the peeps that hold the ride they call it flat. I suppose it is.

I have heard many Cat level racers have done it in 4 hours. I did the 80 mile route in 2009 and the peloton passed me twice. They passed me before the turn off for the 80 and then again about 15 miles from the finish. When they came by me there must have been over 30 guys in the group. I was sucked in like a vacuum, but only could hang on few a couple of miles. There were guys dropping off the back of it like Haley's Comet so I wonder how many start. We have also seen the aftermath of a lot of serious crashes.

I have never done well in it. I cramped up bad my first year on the century. It is held in August heat of Georgia and I don't remember any shade along the way. I don't know how those guys can hammer that non-stop in the heat and do so well.

This Google search shows a lot of chatter about the 4 hour goal.

 

[An old Guy]

Originally Posted by lanierb .



Seriously? Is it downhill? Most local crits I've done don't end up with a 25mph avg and they are way less than 100mi. I'm not saying it's not possible with a good strong group working together, but it can't have been done by many people. Heck, doing 25miles in < 1hr is fairly hard with full TT gear, and that's with no stops or traffic lights.

Out west where the winds are predictable there are a lot of training centuries - out with the wind and as the sun gets low the wind switches around and they ride back with the wind. Not too hard for a group to break 4 hours.

But on any flat course guys working together can easily do under 4 hours. 240 minutes (4 hours) is only 12 minutes at the front in a group of 20. The rest of the ride is in the draft. As long as the guys want to work together it is a nice ride.