Basic errors in Dr. Coggans book?

[Quadsweep]

I finally got the book. It's really good, so this post is not a bash.

I am no physiologist but I think I found a couple basic errors in regards to training specific energy systems from the workout examples ,which not only confused me but may confuse others as well.

In L6 training are we not trying to train the anaerobic glycolic energy system(anaerobic work capacity) as much as we can. That is, are we not trying to isolate this system from the other systems as much as is possible? So in order to do this a rider would need to be well recovered between intervals right. If you don't recover well enough then the focus of the workout shifts from L6 to VO2 max. This means that you need at least a 3 to 1 recovery to work ratio with L6 workouts in order to work ones anaerobic work capacity most effectively.
In the last level 6 workout example the rest periods are only 50% and 100% of the interval themselves. Do these intervals not then become VO2 max in nature and not really anaerobic?

Now the next example is more concerning to me. With L7 work we are working nueromuscular power via the anaerobic ATP-CP energy system. In a sprint workout(L7) you need at least 2-3 minutes of easy recovery after a 10-15 second sprint otherwise you will not allow recovery of ATP. In fact you may need more than 3 minutes as the workout goes on.
In the "micro burst" L7 workout example in the book the rider is to do 15 second sprints with only 15 seconds of recovery. This most certainly will not work true sprinting power and in fact it doesn't even work anaerobic work capacity(L6) very effectively either IMHO since there isn't enough recovery time between intervals. In fact this workout probably work the VO2 system the most. Why the heck is this workout includied in L7 examples?

Again this is not a flame.

 

[whoawhoa]

I finally got the book. It's really good, so this post is not a bash.

I am no physiologist but I think I found a couple basic errors in regards to training specific energy systems from the workout examples which not onbly confused me but may confuse others as well.

In L6 training are we not trying to train the anaerobic glycolic energy system(anaerobic work capacity) as much as we can. That is, are we not trying to isolate this system from the other systems as much as is possible? So in order to do this a rider would need to be well recovered between intervals right. If you don't recover well enough then the focus of the workout shifts from L6 to VO2 max. This means that you need at least a 3 to 1 rest to work ratio with L6 workouts in order to work ones anaerobic work capacity most effectively.
In the last level 6 workout example the rest periods are only 50% and 100% of the interval themselves. Do these intervals not then become VO2 max in nature and not really anaerobic?

Now the next example is more concerning to me. With L7 work we are working nueromuscular power via the anaerobic ATP-CP energy system. In a sprint workout(L7) you need at least 2-3 minutes rest after a 10-15 second sprint otherwise you will not allow recovery of ATP.
In the "micro burst" L7 workout example in the book the rider is to do 15 second sprints with only 15 seconds of recovery. This most certainly will not work true sprinting power and in fact it doesn't even work anaerobic work capacity(L6) very effectively either IMHO since there isn't enough recovery time between intervals. In fact this workout probably work the VO2 system the most. Why the heck is this workout includied in L7 examples?

Again this is not a flame.

I have not read the book, so can't see the specific interval workouts you cite. However, remember that the book was not only written by Dr. Coggan. Hunter Allen co-authored it with Dr. Coggan so the book certainly includes coaching experience/opinion as well as just pure physiology. I beleive your concerns are valid concerning the first workout, however, if the athletet can maintain l6 power throughout then it is most certainly an anaerobic workout. It may not be ideal, but specificity must be taken into account. The same applies for the second workout (think crit racing).

 

[Quadsweep]

I beleive your concerns are valid concerning the first workout, however, if the athletet can maintain l6 power throughout then it is most certainly an anaerobic workout.

Okay I see that, although it's not an ideal approach.
The power output is L6 but the energy system it targets is the VO2 system

The same applies for the second workout (think crit racing).

Nope, it is absolutely not a sprint workout. You are not training your sprint with this workout, you are training Crit type high power bursts, training the body to deal with and recovery quickly from high levels of fatiguing hydrogen ions etc. The workout is V02 in nature even though the power output might inititally be in the low L7 range( maybe but I highly doubt it especially after a couple of these.)
Is it possible to generate 300-350% of your FTP on these 15 seconds efforts done with a 1 to 1 work to recovery ratio for even 3 minutes, let alone the recommended 10 minutes!

 

[whoawhoa]

Okay I see that, although it's not an ideal approach.
The power output is L6 but the energy system it targets is the VO2 system

Nope, it is absolutely not a sprint workout. You are not training your sprint with this workout, you are training Crit type high power bursts, training the body to deal with and recovery quickly from high levels of fatiguing hydrogen ions etc. The workout is V02 in nature even though the power output can be in the low L7 range( maybe but I highly doubt it especially after a couple of these.)

Can you describe in detail each interval workout? Power output, interval duration, recovery duration, number of intervals?

 

[Quadsweep]

Can you describe in detail each interval workout? Power output, interval duration, recovery duration, number of intervals?

The last L6 example is this.
after warm up do 3 X 2 minutes at 135% FTP with 1 minute rests
then rest for 5 minutes
then do 3 X 30 seconds at > 200% FTP with 1 minute rests.

The workout targets the VO2 system the most(poorly due to short total time at VO2). It targets anaerobic work capacity secondly. Pardon my frankness but it's a great workout and would help you in races, but a lame anaerobic work capacity workout.



The last L7 workout is this.

After warm up do 15 seconds efforts followed by 15 seconds rest for two sets of 10 minutes each. Take 20 minutes recovery between sets.
For the "on" segment try for 150% of FTP and then rest at 50%.
Try to reach 300-350% of FTP as your max wattage!
NOT!..at least not after you have done several.

These workout examples must have come from Hunter Allen. I can't see Dr. Coggan giving these workout examples, as good as they surely are, as the most effective ways to target anaerobic work capacity and sprints.

 

[whoawhoa]

Pardon my frankness but it's a great workout and would help you in races, but a lame anaerobic work capacity workout.

I'm not sure why you think this. It takes roughly 3 minutes full-gas for most people to burn off their AWC. The minute in between each interval is probably enough given that each interval is only two minutes, meaning the athlete has plenty left at the end of the first one. Sure, if you were doing 6x3 or something you'd need a long recovery, but there isn't much reason to have a long recovery for such a short workout. I agree it isn't an "ideal" workout, but ideal isn't always necessary. Maybe if you're a trackie with awesome AWC your training needs to be either "chillin' or drillin'" when targeting anaerobic capacity. But for most roadies with low to average AWC, the most important thing is that they do the workouts. I beleive Dr. Coggan mentioned his AWC improved 20% over six weeks (IIRC) doing 7X1 kilometer intervals once a week. That's also probably not an "ideal" AWC workout, but it would work for the most of us. I'm not trying to justify doing inneffective workouts, just saying the macrostructure and consistency are more important than nailing a "perfect" workout every time.

as the most effective ways to target anaerobic work capacity and sprints.

Remember that just because something is labeled an L7 workout doesn't mean it's targeting "sprints." Neuromsucular adaptation applies across the board.

 

[acoggan]

remember that the book was not only written by Dr. Coggan. Hunter Allen co-authored it with Dr. Coggan so the book certainly includes coaching experience/opinion

Indeed, I would never recommend specific workouts to someone I'm not coaching, as that's just not my style.

 

[acoggan]

just because something is labeled an L7 workout doesn't mean it's targeting "sprints." Neuromsucular adaptation applies across the board.

Clearly you have a far better grasp of things than many who post here.

 

[acoggan]

The last L6 example is this.
after warm up do 3 X 2 minutes at 135% FTP with 1 minute rests
then rest for 5 minutes
then do 3 X 30 seconds at > 200% FTP with 1 minute rests.

The workout targets the VO2 system the most(poorly due to short total time at VO2). It targets anaerobic work capacity secondly. Pardon my frankness but it's a great workout and would help you in races, but a lame anaerobic work capacity workout.

Says who?

I can't say that I've tried that particular workout, but the fact of the matter is that if you can hit the target powers, it will stress your anaerobic capacity quite severely. Indeed, that's why only three 2 min efforts and three 30 s efforts are prescribed: the demands are so severe that you can't do much more than that. OTOH, you can do 25-30 min of training at around VO2max.

 

[Quadsweep]

Says who?

I can't say that I've tried that particular workout, but the fact of the matter is that if you can hit the target powers, it will stress your anaerobic capacity quite severely. Indeed, that's why only three 2 min efforts and three 30 s efforts are prescribed: the demands are so severe that you can't do much more than that. OTOH, you can do 25-30 min of training at around VO2max.

You have listed L6 and 7 workout examples in the below link which are right on the money with what I have been saying all along.
Why do you defend the flawed workouts in the book? I am not attacking you. I am just pointing out clearly flawed workouts when it comes to targeting anaerobic work capacity and especially neuromuscular adaptation.

Your examples below are far better.


http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Power_Training_Chapter.pdf

 

[Quadsweep]

Remember that just because something is labeled an L7 workout doesn't mean it's targeting "sprints." Neuromsucular adaptation applies across the board.

Do you not have to reach and hold L7 power,often in a workout, in order for neuromuscular adaptation to occur? I would like to see ANYONE on this board reach 300-350% of FTP after a minute doing the below workout.

After warm up do 15 seconds efforts followed by 15 seconds rest for two sets of 10 minutes each. Take 20 minutes recovery between sets.
For the "on" segment try for 150% of FTP and then rest at 50%.
Try to reach 300-350% of FTP as your max wattage!
NOT!..at least not after you have done several.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I finally got the book. It's really good, so this post is not a bash.

I am no physiologist but I think I found a couple basic errors in regards to training specific energy systems from the workout examples ,which not only confused me but may confuse others as well.

In L6 training are we not trying to train the anaerobic glycolic energy system(anaerobic work capacity) as much as we can. That is, are we not trying to isolate this system from the other systems as much as is possible? So in order to do this a rider would need to be well recovered between intervals right. If you don't recover well enough then the focus of the workout shifts from L6 to VO2 max. This means that you need at least a 3 to 1 recovery to work ratio with L6 workouts in order to work ones anaerobic work capacity most effectively.
In the last level 6 workout example the rest periods are only 50% and 100% of the interval themselves. Do these intervals not then become VO2 max in nature and not really anaerobic?

Now the next example is more concerning to me. With L7 work we are working nueromuscular power via the anaerobic ATP-CP energy system. In a sprint workout(L7) you need at least 2-3 minutes of easy recovery after a 10-15 second sprint otherwise you will not allow recovery of ATP. In fact you may need more than 3 minutes as the workout goes on.
In the "micro burst" L7 workout example in the book the rider is to do 15 second sprints with only 15 seconds of recovery. This most certainly will not work true sprinting power and in fact it doesn't even work anaerobic work capacity(L6) very effectively either IMHO since there isn't enough recovery time between intervals. In fact this workout probably work the VO2 system the most. Why the heck is this workout includied in L7 examples?

Again this is not a flame.

I think your recovery assumptions are way off. One attains almost 100% AWC recovery after ~3mins (30s half-life), so your assumption of a 3:1 recovery:work ratio is unnecessarily high. I almost never do more than 1:1 recovery:work ratio when I do L6 efforts. Likewise, I do L7s repeats with ~1min recovery all the time. I may not attain absolute full power, but pretty close and definitely high enough for NM adaptation. Now that I think about it, I have done 15s recoveries and I attain almost full power with those as well, especially if I am doing 15s sprints (by definition well below full power). The question is not whether I am attaining full power but whether I am attaining the desired adaptation.

 

[Quadsweep]

I think your recovery assumptions are way off. One attains almost 100% AWC recovery after ~3mins (30s half-life), so your assumption of a 3:1 recovery:work ratio is unnecessarily high. I almost never do more than 1:1 recovery:work ratio when I do L6 efforts. Likewise, I do L7s repeats with ~1min recovery all the time. I may not attain absolute full power, but pretty close and definitely high enough for NM adaptation.

Okay, but when you are doing the L7 work are targeting sprinting? If yes then you are not doing them right. You cannot recover ATP stores in 60 seconds.

Why does Dr. Coggan list 1 minute intervals followed by 3 minutes recovery and even more recovery as you progress with these in the year.
http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/P...ing_Chapter.pdf

 

[RapDaddyo]

Okay, but when you are doing the L7 work are targeting sprinting? If yes then you are not doing them right. You cannot recover ATP stores in 60 seconds.

What I'm targeting is a physiological adaptation, in this case max NM power. Sprinting may be the common use of this power, but that's not the only reason I want the adaptation. When I do L7s, I'm just wanting to get in as many seconds at or near max power as I can. I can do 5-10s repeats at near 100% power with as little as 60s recovery between each one, at least for 5-6 efforts. When power starts to drop, I stop.

Why does Dr. Coggan list 1 minute intervals followed by 3 minutes recovery and even more recovery as you progress with these in the year.
http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/P...ing_Chapter.pdf

There are an infinite number of ways to target specific adaptations. I think it's important to keep the fundamentals in mind -- what is the power/duration combination required to target the desired adaptation? So long as one rides at these combinations, I think there are an infinite number of variations that work.

 

[Quadsweep]

What I'm targeting is a physiological adaptation, in this case max NM power. Sprinting may be the common use of this power, but that's not the only reason I want the adaptation. When I do L7s, I'm just wanting to get in as many seconds at or near max power as I can. I can do 5-10s repeats at near 100% power with as little as 60s recovery between each one, at least for 5-6 efforts. When power starts to drop, I stop.

That makes good sence.

There are an infinite number of ways to target specific adaptations. I think it's important to keep the fundamentals in mind -- what is the power/duration combination required to target the desired adaptation? So long as one rides at these combinations, I think there are an infinite number of variations that work.

I was under the understanding that in order to work AWC best you NEED near full recovery of AWC between intervals and thus the long rests.??

 

[whoawhoa]

Do you not have to reach and hold L7 power,often in a workout, in order for neuromuscular adaptation to occur? I would like to see ANYONE on this board reach 300-350% of FTP after a minute doing the below workout.

I'm sure there are some who could. I certainly couldn't, my max power when completely fresh in only ~325% of my FTP. Someone who's max is more like 400-450% would probably do that easily. That said, I think the main flaw with that is listing max powers by % of FTP, because there not related. But the "core" part of the workout (the 15 on/15 off) has a neuromuscular (l7) component to it as well.

 

[NomadVW]

Do you not have to reach and hold L7 power,often in a workout, in order for neuromuscular adaptation to occur? I would like to see ANYONE on this board reach 300-350% of FTP after a minute doing the below workout.

After warm up do 15 seconds efforts followed by 15 seconds rest for two sets of 10 minutes each. Take 20 minutes recovery between sets.
For the "on" segment try for 150% of FTP and then rest at 50%.
Try to reach 300-350% of FTP as your max wattage!
NOT!..at least not after you have done several.

What RDO says I think is most true - first, that NMP isn't simply sprinting to the finish. From the text you quote, no where does it say it is targeting your sustainable sprint.

The micro-burst workout is designed to improve your ability to produce the explosive power that is needed for the INITIAL "snap" in a sprint....

I've done this workout similar, - less recovery between intervals and only "goaled" to 480watts for each 15 sec on, and 3 sets. At the end of the third set of these I was still producing 700-730 (230%) watts at the "snap" part of the on segments. My fast twitch is remarkably low power, so I'm assuming someone who is geared further in that direction would have no problem accomplishing more. Nor was my workout geared to go to 300%, so I can't say whether I could or not - for not having attempted to.

 

[doctorSpoc]

...I can do 5-10s repeats at near 100% power with as little as 60s recovery between each one, at least for 5-6 efforts. When power starts to drop, I stop...

c'mon... what are you guys saying? the guy is right...

15sec sprint followed by 15sec rest (not a minute) and by 10min? that is just stupid! that is NOT a sprint workout! i would even say 1 minute is not enough... fully recover, whatever it takes... i take 3-5min

and the AC workout not as blatantly bad but it is not close to being an ideal workout...

 

[whoawhoa]

c'mon... what are you guys saying? the guy is right...

15sec sprint followed by 15sec rest (not a minute) and by 10min? that is just stupid! that is NOT a sprint workout! i would even say 1 minute is not enough... fully recover, whatever it takes... i take 3-5min

and the AC workout not as blatantly bad but it is not close to being an ideal workout...

Nobody ever said it was a sprint workout. The book says it is an l7 workout.

 

[Quadsweep]

c'mon... what are you guys saying? the guy is right...

15sec sprint followed by 15sec rest (not a minute) and by 10min? that is just stupid! that is NOT a sprint workout! i would even say 1 minute is not enough... fully recover, whatever it takes... i take 3-5min

and the AC workout not as blatantly bad but it is not close to being an ideal workout...

Gee, Finally someone is seeing my points instead of getting defensive.