Block training? Can you do too much?



BlueJersey

New Member
Jan 5, 2005
420
0
0
I have done a 3 days block training so far. Only on the trainer. 2 days and 2 hours per session at 85% FT and 1 day doing 1 minutes On/Off intervals for 30 minutes. My legs feel fine. My HR seems to be high not that I actually measure it. Last night I couldn't sleep that well and I could sense and feel my heart beats. Today is much better day to ride and I am thinking about commuting to work and while getting another 1 hour of high tempo work done. I decided not to since I am not sure if I should. Or fearing that I may have just done too much days of training in a row.
 
BlueJersey said:
......Last night I couldn't sleep that well ..... I am thinking about commuting to work and while getting another ...... I decided not to since I am not sure if I should. .....
Trouble sleeping at the end of a hard training block is one of my sure signs that I'm digging deep. Doesn't necessarily mean time off if I was intending to dig a deep hole, but in general it's time to back off or rest. But getting back to your title, Yes you can definitely do too much block training or any other weekly routine for that matter but I 'spect you know that. :) Sounds like you made a good call to rest today.
 
I don't do block training yet but I know you can't reach deep sleep when low on calcium I would take calcium citrate a couple hours before bed for insomnia.

BlueJersey said:
I have done a 3 days block training so far. Only on the trainer. 2 days and 2 hours per session at 85% FT and 1 day doing 1 minutes On/Off intervals for 30 minutes. My legs feel fine. My HR seems to be high not that I actually measure it. Last night I couldn't sleep that well and I could sense and feel my heart beats. Today is much better day to ride and I am thinking about commuting to work and while getting another 1 hour of high tempo work done. I decided not to since I am not sure if I should. Or fearing that I may have just done too much days of training in a row.
 
Yes you can do too much. The number of consecutive days that one can train in pure block fashion varies depending on the person....his level of fitness, age, experience etc etc. I routinely block train threshold for an hour at a shot and I do get tired but I do recover nicely. it's the fastest way to get stronger IMO.
That said....block training is suppose to make you pretty tired...you are suppose to over reach a bit....but then allow for days off or recovery ride days to recuperate. So after 3 days in a row of tough training, like threshold work, you need 2-3 days of recovery to recover and get stronger.

***After a three day block almost all men need more than one day off. You are not going to get any better if you don't recover.Recovery comes first, and it takes time, and only then can you get stronger.
 
TiMan said:
Yes you can do too much. The number of consecutive days that one can train in pure block fashion varies depending on the person....his level of fitness, age, experience etc etc. I routinely block train threshold for an hour at a shot and I do get tired but I do recover nicely. it's the fastest way to get stronger IMO.
That said....block training is suppose to make you pretty tired...you are suppose to over reach a bit....but then allow for days off or recovery ride days to recuperate. So after 3 days in a row of tough training, like threshold work, you need 2-3 days of recovery to recover and get stronger.

***After a three day block almost all men need more than one day off. You are not going to get any better if you don't recover.Recovery comes first, and it takes time, and only then can you get stronger.
okay but are you doing only an hour at or close to FTP those three days? Say 90-110 TSS per day?
 
rmur17 said:
okay but are you doing only an hour at or close to FTP those three days? Say 90-110 TSS per day?



YES.....

...and remember the recovery TSS recommendations, given by Hunter/ Dr. Coggan does not factor in the affect of consecutive training day....Andy admits that. Threshold training is stressful and especially when blocked.
It is much better to go by how you feel after a block than any written guide.
Also, you will notice that on day three it takes a bit more "effort" to hold your threshold segments and this is a sign that you need to rest after that day. Don't make the mistake of training all the time until your ability to produce the "same" power is gone. Once in a while that s a good idea, and it works better for V)2 work, but "rely" on a power drop all the time to tell you to rest. I know guys that actually do this and they burn out quickly.

It's also best to be a bit conservative with block training at least at first.

Anyway....doing days at L4 in three days is going to stimulate big gains in threshold power, most guys don't need to, or want to do more...but then you need to rest. You can always up the volume at L4 as time goes on. Recovery must be complete before you get stronger. The bodies first priority is to use it's resources to recover and THEN the left overs for getting stronger. This is something few men actually "get".

You want to do more?...then try what several of my Cat 1 riders are doing now...3 X 30 at 95-100% FTP for blocks of three days,.....that's a lot even though the TSS score isn't through the roof. They are tired and need 2 days very easy or off after this.
 
TiMan said:
....You want to do more?...then try what several of my Cat 1 riders are doing now...3 X 30 at 95-100% FTP for blocks of three days,.....that's a lot even though the TSS score isn't through the roof. They are tired and need 2 days very easy or off after this.
I've been doing a variation on this. After a few weeks of progressively bumping up my SST repeats I take a week where I drop my power to the low end of SST (88% to 90% of FTP) and do 3x30s or 2x45s. When I can complete these I know I own it and over the period of months I see these longer repeats go up in power I know I'm not just barely finishing reps at a certain power. I typically feel real good during and after these longer "consolidation" sessions and they fire me up to get back on the building curve after sufficient rest. These end up being ~2 hour sessions with WU and CD and a five minutes between repeats. So the SST is still substantial as are the calories burned.

BTW, TiMan your thoughts on the importance of rest and recovery are really refreshing in a world of more is better and no pain no gain training philosophies. It's one reason I train alone more and more, folks want to go 70% every day instead of going hard enough and then resting enough.
 
Thanks for the replies. :)

BlueJersey said:
I have done a 3 days block training so far. Only on the trainer. 2 days and 2 hours per session at 85% FT and 1 day doing 1 minutes On/Off intervals for 30 minutes. My legs feel fine. My HR seems to be high not that I actually measure it. Last night I couldn't sleep that well and I could sense and feel my heart beats. Today is much better day to ride and I am thinking about commuting to work and while getting another 1 hour of high tempo work done. I decided not to since I am not sure if I should. Or fearing that I may have just done too much days of training in a row.
 
Ti,
do you advocate, during block training, to make each workout progressively harder, or to treat these like straight sets and just duplicate the previous day's workout?

also, your summations of recovery, these are very interesting to anyone dying to progress. can you expand on what you mean by "the body using it's resources to recover then get stronger" please? and expanding on the "golden fleece" of recovery in any way...
i am sure this seem self explanatory to you perhaps, but i am interested on your take on this!


TiMan said:
YES.....

...and remember the recovery TSS recommendations, given by Hunter/ Dr. Coggan does not factor in the affect of consecutive training day....Andy admits that. Threshold training is stressful and especially when blocked.
It is much better to go by how you feel after a block than any written guide.
Also, you will notice that on day three it takes a bit more "effort" to hold your threshold segments and this is a sign that you need to rest after that day. Don't make the mistake of training all the time until your ability to produce the "same" power is gone. Once in a while that s a good idea, and it works better for V)2 work, but "rely" on a power drop all the time to tell you to rest. I know guys that actually do this and they burn out quickly.

It's also best to be a bit conservative with block training at least at first.

Anyway....doing days at L4 in three days is going to stimulate big gains in threshold power, most guys don't need to, or want to do more...but then you need to rest. You can always up the volume at L4 as time goes on. Recovery must be complete before you get stronger. The bodies first priority is to use it's resources to recover and THEN the left overs for getting stronger. This is something few men actually "get".

You want to do more?...then try what several of my Cat 1 riders are doing now...3 X 30 at 95-100% FTP for blocks of three days,.....that's a lot even though the TSS score isn't through the roof. They are tired and need 2 days very easy or off after this.
 
lyotard said:
Ti,
do you advocate, during block training, to make each workout progressively harder, or to treat these like straight sets and just duplicate the previous day's workout?

also, your summations of recovery, these are very interesting to anyone dying to progress. can you expand on what you mean by "the body using it's resources to recover then get stronger" please? and expanding on the "golden fleece" of recovery in any way...
i am sure this seem self explanatory to you perhaps, but i am interested on your take on this!


I do not recommend that you block train progressively harder each day of the block....why?.....because you are getting more and more fatigued as the block progresses and you don't want to "kill" yourself off physically and mentally. You want to train hard and damn hard but not nuts.
Now if you are juicing you could do it but not as a natural.

Ideally when you block train any one given energy system you want to make each successive day in the block a bit easier. You can keep the volume the same and just reduce interval length or you can both reduce total volume and interval length. ie: I have one of my top riders doing an hour of sprints in the am on day 1, and then 3 X 30 at threshold on his trainer in the pm, followed by 60 minutes on the road at Tempo.....then day two he does 2 X 30 and then 60 minutes on the road with 30 at tempo, and then day 3 he does 3 X 20 and then 60 on the road with 30 at tempo on the road. He follows that up with 2 full days of recovery but he recovers and adapts fast, most guys would need three days of easy recovery riding BELOW endurance zone for 30-60 minutes a day or days off.

Regarding recovery, adaptation and making progress. Most riders, even at a very high level , and even many coaches, under prescribe recovery time. They simply do not understand just how intense intense training can be and how hard it can be for the body to recover let alone adapt. It is way better to slightly under train than to slightly over train....and many many guys are always slightly over trained and then they wonder why they don't progress very well. In fact many guys stay the same, or almost so, year after year after year because of this.

Many riders don't factor in their own personal recovery equations....ie: the fact that they work, and sometimes at a physical job, and that they do other sports, have a girl friend, kids etc etc etc. All these things impact ones ability to recover and adapt.

Also, many coaches and riders look way too much at what the pro's are doing and they try to mirror them or almost so. Coaches let pro training methodology filter down to the coaching of lesser riders. This is a huge mistake because the pro's have genetically superior recovery ability, no job,no schooling, most don't even have a wife and they can get 10 hours of sleep a night and nap every day. Not only that but they have access to and use recovery enhancing agents like scrotal testosterone patches.

After hard training the body will direct all available energy to recovery....all that is left over from the basic activities of daily living that is. Once the body has recovered form the training stress, then, and ONLY THEN, can it get stronger. It can only get stronger if the body has the energy to do so AND the time to do so.

From a HARD three day block you may be able to recover in 24 hours if you are young, have few stressors in your life and have all your "ducks in a row" but very few will have enough time to supercompensate and get stronger unless you use drugs. So you often need 2 ad often 3 days to fully recovered and supercompensate. If makes no sense at all to train hard again UNTIL you have recovered AND supercompensated. If you do you are simply banging your head against a wall and you WILL overtrain...or at the very least fail to progress.

Now if you are NOT block training hard three days in a row then one day can be okay...but each day needs to be quite a bit easier and the third day should be no more than an endurance ride ie: day one might be sprints and then some VO2 work, day two might be threshold work and day three might be a longish endurance ride. However, even here many men would be best served with two full days of recovery here.

How do you know when you are ready to train again???.....by monitoring your waking resting heart rate, before you move around in bed, and by "feel". You do not train again until you have that desire to train...NEVER force yourself on the bike(unless you know you are being lazy of course). How many times have you(reader) forced yourself to ride after one day off and you really didn't want to ride?!

After 3-4 weeks or so the body needs more of a break to adapt properly as the increasing load is getting to be too much and 2-3 days off just cannot properly do the job any more, so you have to work in a recovery week of 5-7 days. Here again guys mess up and they make their recovery weeks too hard....the recovery week is for recovery and not to stimulate.
 
TiMan said:
remember the recovery TSS recommendations, given by Hunter/ Dr. Coggan does not factor in the affect of consecutive training day....

That's because they were promulgated while the Performance Manager concept was still under wraps, and yet I needed to give people some framework within which to interpret TSS values.

TiMan said:
Threshold training is stressful and especially when blocked.

Or as I originally described level 4 way back in 2001:

"Just below to just above TT effort, taking into account duration, current fitness, environmental conditions, etc. Essentially continuous sensation of moderate or even greater leg effort/fatigue. Continuous conversation difficult at best, due to depth/frequency of breathing. Effort sufficiently high that sustained exercise at this level is mentally very taxing – therefore typically performed in training as multiple ‘repeats’, ‘modules’, or ‘blocks’ of 10-30 min duration. Consecutive days of training at level 4 possible, but such workouts generally only performed when sufficiently rested/recovered from prior training so as to be able to maintain intensity."
 
TiMan said:
YES.....

...and remember the recovery TSS recommendations, given by Hunter/ Dr. Coggan does not factor in the affect of consecutive training day....Andy admits that. Threshold training is stressful and especially when blocked.
It is much better to go by how you feel after a block than any written guide.
Also, you will notice that on day three it takes a bit more "effort" to hold your threshold segments and this is a sign that you need to rest after that day. Don't make the mistake of training all the time until your ability to produce the "same" power is gone. Once in a while that s a good idea, and it works better for V)2 work, but "rely" on a power drop all the time to tell you to rest. I know guys that actually do this and they burn out quickly.

It's also best to be a bit conservative with block training at least at first.

Anyway....doing days at L4 in three days is going to stimulate big gains in threshold power, most guys don't need to, or want to do more...but then you need to rest. You can always up the volume at L4 as time goes on. Recovery must be complete before you get stronger. The bodies first priority is to use it's resources to recover and THEN the left overs for getting stronger. This is something few men actually "get".

You want to do more?...then try what several of my Cat 1 riders are doing now...3 X 30 at 95-100% FTP for blocks of three days,.....that's a lot even though the TSS score isn't through the roof. They are tired and need 2 days very easy or off after this.
Hi Ti,
Sorry for the delay. i was sick last week (norwalk).

I realize you wouldn't advocate L4 block training year round or perhaps even months on end. My thoughts are with say 100 Tss/dy 3x ON and 2 x zero off over a 5-d cycle, TSS/dy will average only 60 pts. Taken over say an 8-week block, CTL will also tend towards 60.

Won't that represent detraining for a lot of people?

Not trying to be confrontational - it seems like a large trade-off between specific L4 work and overall CTL. I guess the same numbers would apply to L5 as a hard L5 workout is typically around 100 Tss pts or so.
 
rmur17 said:
Hi Ti,
Sorry for the delay. i was sick last week (norwalk).

I realize you wouldn't advocate L4 block training year round or perhaps even months on end. My thoughts are with say 100 Tss/dy 3x ON and 2 x zero off over a 5-d cycle, TSS/dy will average only 60 pts. Taken over say an 8-week block, CTL will also tend towards 60.

Won't that represent detraining for a lot of people?

Not trying to be confrontational - it seems like a large trade-off between specific L4 work and overall CTL. I guess the same numbers would apply to L5 as a hard L5 workout is typically around 100 Tss pts or so.



Yes for some people but for others no.


But don't get too fixated on TSS...as I mentioned the recovey recommendations do not take into consideration the impact of consecutive days of training. As Andy said, it was just a general guide put out before Performance Manager was completed...but a lot of people seem to look at the recovery recommendations as if they are gospel.

However, there is, in my opinion, a big difference in regards to bodily stress and training stimuli between 100 TSS in an hour vs 100 TSS in 1.5 hours. As someone said on this forum, there should be an IF duration faction factored into the TSS equation...and I bet Andy has thought about this long ago and has something in the works.


If you are somewhat advanced, as evidenced by a FTP of at least 4.3 watts per kilo, then you should be doing more L4 volume in the block.
Do as little as it takes to make good progress though.
So you, for example, might need 3 X 30 at 95-98% FTP on day one then 3X 30 at 95% on day two and then perhaps 3 X 20 at 95 on day three ...and then you might need only two days off and not three depending on how well you recover. You can also throw in some Tempo and endurance work on these days, depending o your ability to recover, and your goals, and if you have the energy and time.

Latter on when trying to peak your FTP you will need to do more work at 100% FTP and then things get really stressful. Training at 100-105% FTP requires a lot of care and you have to be "in tune" with your body all the time or you will over train and go backwards.

There is no doubt in my mind that block training L4 produced quicker and higher gains in FTP than more traditional methods.
 
TiMan said:
there is, in my opinion, a big difference in regards to bodily stress and training stimuli between 100 TSS in an hour vs 100 TSS in 1.5 hours. As someone said on this forum, there should be an IF duration faction factored into the TSS equation

There is: TSS = duration (h) x intensity factor^2 x 100.