Boy, are you gonna hate this.

[Freewheeling]

Ed:

"This is ever the danger of taking a statement out of context. The post to which I was
responding was about the fear and distrust that various populations have concerning their
neighbors within the country, not about former invaders and enemies they may have been at war
with at one time or another."

Yes, but I was talking about "interlopers" or foreigners living in Belgium, and the conjecture that
it's related to their history of invasion is abous a plausible as it gets. I mean, after Belgium
guess who's next on the list? (Hint: It's not England.)

--
--Scott
"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> watsonglenn <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > Once wars are over there is no residual fear and distrust.>>
> >
> >
> > The Arbs are still angry about the Crusades and being kicked out of
> > Spain. Mexico is still upset about losing land in the Mexican American
> > War. China is still worried about Japan. Of course old wars produce fear
> > and distrust. Name a war in which all has been forgiven.
>
> This is ever the danger of taking a statement out of context. The post
> to which I was responding was about the fear and distrust that various
> populations have concerning their neighbors within the country, not
> about former invaders and enemies they may have been at war with at
> one time or another. You, sir, are an interloper! If you are going to
> intrude on a subject thread, at least have the grace to read the
> entire thread so you can get running with it and become familiar with
> the subject being discussed.
>
> I could take issue with everyone of your statements above about
> populations being angry over wars won and lost, but that would be a
> whole new subject and is not related to this subject thread at all.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:

> This Warren Block is a person after my own heart. Where is he now that we so sorely need him here
> on ARBR? I have committed all his rules to memory and I shall try to remember them despite what I
> suspect may be the early stages of Alzheimer's kicking in.

The most recent evidence of Usenet activity by a Warren Block I could find was four days old. I
assume the two are the same person, since the signature lines are identical. <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
8&safe=off&selm=slrnc1e5c3.vgj.wblock%40w0nkity.wonkity.com>.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Freewheeling wrote:
>
> > You know, it's really rather easy and comforting for you to believe that. But it's like you
> > don't actually *know* any republicans, so what you offer in lieu of an experience is a
> > caricature. Either that or you know some Republicans, and figure they're atypical.
> >
> > Either way, it's not going to help you win elections.
>
> Again, I am not running for office, so the last sentence is nonsensical.
>
> It is really pretty simple. In all societies at all times there are some that wish to enrich
> themselves and do not care if it comes at the expense of others. Starting in the 1920's and 1930's
> in the US, the rich, powerful and greedy have increasingly aligned themselves with the Republican
> Party. Since the Republican Party obtains the vast majority of its financial support from this
> faction, Republican politicians, whatever their personal beliefs, (with a few exceptions) are
> beholden to the interests of the rich and greedy.
>
> Most Democratic politicians are the same morally as the Republicans - however they have chosen to
> seek the support of a broader constituency in their quest for political power.
>
> So the choice comes down to this: Does one choose to support corrupt politicians who mostly
> promote the interests of the rich and greedy, or does one support corrupt politicians who half-
> heartedly promote the interests of the majority of the population?
>
> It is really quite simple to figure out - all that is required is a little common sense and an
> understanding of basic human nature.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities

Not a bad statement of beliefs really from our curmudgeon in residence here on ARBR. I think this
really does sum up a lot of the traditional mythology about our two political parties. I more or
less believed most of this for most of my life too.

But I became extremely disenchanted with the Dems and their programs for the poor ever since the
Great Society of the Johnson administration. The programs simply do not work. I once had high hopes
for Teddy Kennedy. Can you believe it? I must have been crazy! But the coup de grace for me was the
way the Dems have handled foreign policy since the Vietnam era. I figured if they can't figure out
how to handle our enemies any better than that, they most likely do not have a clue about how to
handle poor people either.

Mr. Sherman is right about one thing though. It does all come down to an understanding of human
nature and having some common sense ideas about it to boot. Apparently, he has one idea about
human nature and I have another. I believe it finally comes down to our assumptions which are
not provable one way or the other. But it is always a good idea to judge a policy, foreign or
domestic, against its consequences.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Freewheeling]

Ed:

"Apparently, he has one idea about human nature and I have another. I believe it finally comes down
to our assumptions which are not provable one way or the other. But it is always a good idea to
judge a policy, foreign or domestic, against its consequences."

Have you ever considered a career in diplomacy? (I hope this wasn't an insult, because it wasn't
intended to be.)

--
--Scott
"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > Freewheeling wrote:
> >
> > > You know, it's really rather easy and comforting for you to believe
that.
> > > But it's like you don't actually *know* any republicans, so what you
offer
> > > in lieu of an experience is a caricature. Either that or you know
some
> > > Republicans, and figure they're atypical.
> > >
> > > Either way, it's not going to help you win elections.
> >
> > Again, I am not running for office, so the last sentence is nonsensical.
> >
> > It is really pretty simple. In all societies at all times there are some
> > that wish to enrich themselves and do not care if it comes at the
> > expense of others. Starting in the 1920's and 1930's in the US, the
> > rich, powerful and greedy have increasingly aligned themselves with the
> > Republican Party. Since the Republican Party obtains the vast majority
> > of its financial support from this faction, Republican politicians,
> > whatever their personal beliefs, (with a few exceptions) are beholden to
> > the interests of the rich and greedy.
> >
> > Most Democratic politicians are the same morally as the Republicans -
> > however they have chosen to seek the support of a broader constituency
> > in their quest for political power.
> >
> > So the choice comes down to this: Does one choose to support corrupt
> > politicians who mostly promote the interests of the rich and greedy, or
> > does one support corrupt politicians who half-heartedly promote the
> > interests of the majority of the population?
> >
> > It is really quite simple to figure out - all that is required is a
> > little common sense and an understanding of basic human nature.
> >
> > Tom Sherman - Quad Cities
>
> Not a bad statement of beliefs really from our curmudgeon in residence
> here on ARBR. I think this really does sum up a lot of the traditional
> mythology about our two political parties. I more or less believed
> most of this for most of my life too.
>
> But I became extremely disenchanted with the Dems and their programs
> for the poor ever since the Great Society of the Johnson
> administration. The programs simply do not work. I once had high hopes
> for Teddy Kennedy. Can you believe it? I must have been crazy! But the
> coup de grace for me was the way the Dems have handled foreign policy
> since the Vietnam era. I figured if they can't figure out how to
> handle our enemies any better than that, they most likely do not have
> a clue about how to handle poor people either.
>
> Mr. Sherman is right about one thing though. It does all come down to
> an understanding of human nature and having some common sense ideas
> about it to boot. Apparently, he has one idea about human nature and I
> have another. I believe it finally comes down to our assumptions which
> are not provable one way or the other. But it is always a good idea to
> judge a policy, foreign or domestic, against its consequences.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Freewheeling]

Ed:

"I figured if they can't figure out how to handle our enemies any better than that, they most likely
do not have a clue about how to handle poor people either."

I came to the same conclusion. After having been a progressive activist for Citizen Action
for 7 years.

--
--Scott
"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > Freewheeling wrote:
> >
> > > You know, it's really rather easy and comforting for you to believe
that.
> > > But it's like you don't actually *know* any republicans, so what you
offer
> > > in lieu of an experience is a caricature. Either that or you know
some
> > > Republicans, and figure they're atypical.
> > >
> > > Either way, it's not going to help you win elections.
> >
> > Again, I am not running for office, so the last sentence is nonsensical.
> >
> > It is really pretty simple. In all societies at all times there are some
> > that wish to enrich themselves and do not care if it comes at the
> > expense of others. Starting in the 1920's and 1930's in the US, the
> > rich, powerful and greedy have increasingly aligned themselves with the
> > Republican Party. Since the Republican Party obtains the vast majority
> > of its financial support from this faction, Republican politicians,
> > whatever their personal beliefs, (with a few exceptions) are beholden to
> > the interests of the rich and greedy.
> >
> > Most Democratic politicians are the same morally as the Republicans -
> > however they have chosen to seek the support of a broader constituency
> > in their quest for political power.
> >
> > So the choice comes down to this: Does one choose to support corrupt
> > politicians who mostly promote the interests of the rich and greedy, or
> > does one support corrupt politicians who half-heartedly promote the
> > interests of the majority of the population?
> >
> > It is really quite simple to figure out - all that is required is a
> > little common sense and an understanding of basic human nature.
> >
> > Tom Sherman - Quad Cities
>
> Not a bad statement of beliefs really from our curmudgeon in residence
> here on ARBR. I think this really does sum up a lot of the traditional
> mythology about our two political parties. I more or less believed
> most of this for most of my life too.
>
> But I became extremely disenchanted with the Dems and their programs
> for the poor ever since the Great Society of the Johnson
> administration. The programs simply do not work. I once had high hopes
> for Teddy Kennedy. Can you believe it? I must have been crazy! But the
> coup de grace for me was the way the Dems have handled foreign policy
> since the Vietnam era. I figured if they can't figure out how to
> handle our enemies any better than that, they most likely do not have
> a clue about how to handle poor people either.
>
> Mr. Sherman is right about one thing though. It does all come down to
> an understanding of human nature and having some common sense ideas
> about it to boot. Apparently, he has one idea about human nature and I
> have another. I believe it finally comes down to our assumptions which
> are not provable one way or the other. But it is always a good idea to
> judge a policy, foreign or domestic, against its consequences.
>
> Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

"Freewheeling" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Ed:
>
> "This is ever the danger of taking a statement out of context. The post to which I was responding
> was about the fear and distrust that various populations have concerning their neighbors within
> the country, not about former invaders and enemies they may have been at war with at one time or
> another."
>
> Yes, but I was talking about "interlopers" or foreigners living in Belgium, and the conjecture
> that it's related to their history of invasion is about as plausible as it gets. I mean, after
> Belgium guess who's next on the list? (Hint: It's not England.)

The interloper factor is a universal constant that only varies by how many of them there are in
relation to the host population. Belgium is a very small country and apparently they have an
enormous number of interlopers (foreigners living among them). It stands to reason that the fear and
loathing will be intense. America is a very big country, and we have enormous numbers of interlopers
here too, but they are spread out more. We are not tripping over them everywhere we go.

I do not think the invasion factor has anything to do with it. Look how former mortal enemies can
become allies almost over night once the hostilities have ceased. The fear and distrust of neighbor
for neighbor has everything to do with who is living next to you and most likely has nothing to do
with who invaded you in the past. Fear and distrust of your neighbor springs from your perception of
his potential for criminality. Who cares about anything else?

But in any event, your original post was about a study where some facts had been established but it
did not attempt to explain why the facts might be as they were. But I do question a study when the
facts are all over the place. What I was doing was trying to provide an explanation for why Belgium
was one way and the Netherlands was another way.

The Netherlands, also a very small country that has repeatedly been invaded, has but one language
and are one people. They also may not have as many interlopers living among them. But unless you can
provide some kind of rational explanation for why Belgium is one way and the Netherlands is another
way, then one can end up questioning the study itself. Is it truly measuring what it is purporting
to measure. In effect, I was trying to save the study with a rational explanation of my own. The
invasion factor you use to try to explain it is just not persuasive to me since it does not seem to
apply to the Netherlands with equal force.

Establishing social facts is what the social sciences do best. But explaining those social facts
(what they mean) is altogether something else. Social phenomenon is incredibly complex and trying to
figure out what it means can be a job for other disciplines and even for the man in the street too.

England is a large country compared to Belgium. Besides, island nations are always very strange.
Japan, another island nation, is also very strange but in a different way from England.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Edward Dolan]

Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
> > This Warren Block is a person after my own heart. Where is he now that we so sorely need him
> > here on ARBR? I have committed all his rules to memory and I shall try to remember them despite
> > what I suspect may be the early stages of Alzheimer's kicking in.
>
> The most recent evidence of Usenet activity by a Warren Block I could find was four days old. I
> assume the two are the same person, since the signature lines are identical.

> <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-
> 8&safe=off&selm=slrnc1e5c3.vgj.wblock%40w0nkity.wonkity.com>.
>
> Tom Sherman - Quad Cities

Thanks, but no thanks! Folks who are really into this computer stuff might as well be from another
planet as far as I am concerned. I do think computers are fairly interesting, but they do not
fascinate me to the point where I would want to think about them, let alone write about them. One of
these days I am going to chuck the computer and the Internet and go back to my beloved library world
and read some good books. Since I got my computer about a year ago, I don't read anymore
- and I fear I am getting stupider and stupider. Don't everybody agree with me at once!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Tom Sherman]

Edward Dolan wrote:
> ... England is a large country compared to Belgium. Besides, island nations are always very
> strange. Japan, another island nation, is also very strange but in a different way from England.

On many island nations (Great Britain, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, etc.) they ride their
recumbent bikes (and other vehicles) on the wrong side of the road.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities

 

[watsonglenn]

If you have trouble with the use of apostrophes, that's too bad.>>


Is this you staying on topic? Just curious.

 

[watsonglenn]

So the choice comes down to this: Does one choose to support corrupt politicians who mostly promote the interests of the rich and greedy, or does one support corrupt politicians who half-heartedly promote the interests of the majority of the population?>>


One can also support the men and women who try to do their best for the nation as a whole.

 

[watsonglenn]

I could take issue with everyone of your statements above about populations being angry over wars won and lost, but that would be a whole new subject and is not related to this subject
thread at all.>>

And yet you felt the need to respond in this limited, snipping like, manner. Interesting.

 

[Tom Sherman]

watsonglenn (who?) wrote:

> If you have trouble with the use of apostrophes, that's too bad.>>
>
>
> Is this you staying on topic? Just curious.
Was the post I was replying to on topic? Just curious.

It is common Usenet practice to put attributions with quoted text. In fact, most newsreaders, email
programs, and web forums do that automatically.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities

 

[watsonglenn]

Was the post I was replying to on topic? Just curious.>>>

I repeat were you posting on topic?

It is common Usenet practice to put attributions with quoted text. In fact, most newsreaders, email programs, and web forums do that automatically.>>

What do you mean "put attributions with quoted text?"

 

[Freewheeling]

Works for me.

--
--Scott
"watsonglenn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So the choice comes down to this: Does one choose to support corrupt
politicians who mostly promote the interests of the rich and greedy, or does
one support corrupt politicians who half-heartedly promote the interests of
the majority of the population?>>
>
>
> One can also support the men and women who try to do their best for the
> nation as a whole.
>
>
>
> --

 

[Edward Dolan]

watsonglenn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> I could take issue with everyone of your statements above about populations being angry over
> wars won and lost, but that would be a whole new subject and is not related to this subject
> thread at all.>>
>
> And yet you felt the need to respond in this limited, snipping like, manner. Interesting.

What is interesting to me is that you do not know how to post. I always like to give a person the
courtesy of a reply, but I can't be wasting my time on someone who snips everything out of
context leaving the newsgroup high and dry. Post like everyone else does on this newsgroup if you
want a response.

Below is my complete post. The only one doing any snipping here is you. Please be rational
or be gone!

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

watsonglenn <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> Once wars are over there is no residual fear and distrust.>>
>
>
> The Arbs are still angry about the Crusades and being kicked out of Spain. Mexico is still upset
> about losing land in the Mexican American War. China is still worried about Japan. Of course old
> wars produce fear and distrust. Name a war in which all has been forgiven.

This is ever the danger of taking a statement out of context. The post to which I was responding was
about the fear and distrust that various populations have concerning their neighbors within the
country, not about former invaders and enemies they may have been at war with at one time or
another. You, sir, are an interloper! If you are going to intrude on a subject thread, at least have
the grace to read the entire thread so you can get running with it and become familiar with the
subject being discussed.

I could take issue with everyone of your statements above about populations being angry over
wars won and lost, but that would be a whole new subject and is not related to this subject
thread at all.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

 

[Tom Sherman]

watsonglenn wrote:

> What do you mean "put attributions with quoted text?"

See above. Note that it says "watsonglenn wrote:". This allows the person reading the post to know
whom the quoted text is by. Quoted text should always be attributed to its author. There should be a
setting in Cyclingforums.com that allows for this (if not, it is a very badly designed web forum).

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities

 

[Tom Sherman]

Freewheeling wrote:

> Works for me.
>
> --
> --Scott "watsonglenn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>One can also support the men and women who try to do their best for the nation as a whole.

We could also argue endlessly over who these men and women are and are not.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities

 

[watsonglenn]

What is interesting to me is that you do not know how to post. I always like to give a person the courtesy of a reply, but I can't be wasting my time on someone who snips everything out of context leaving the newsgroup high and dry. Post like everyone else does on this newsgroup if you want a response.>>>

And yet you continue to post to me.

Below is my complete post. The only one doing any snipping here is you. Please be rational or be gone!>>>

Are you serious?

You, sir, are an interloper! If you are going to intrude on a subject thread, at least have the grace to read the entire thread so you can get running with it and become familiar with the
subject being discussed.>>>

This is surreal.

 

[watsonglenn]

We could also argue endlessly over who these men and women are and are not.>>


Not we, but I am sure you could.

 

[Edward Dolan]

watsonglenn <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

Edward Dolan wrote:

> What is interesting to me is that you do not know how to post. I always like to give a person the
> courtesy of a reply, but I can't be wasting my time on someone who snips everything out of context
> leaving the newsgroup high and dry. Post like everyone else does on this newsgroup if you want a
> response.>>>
>
> And yet you continue to post to me.
>
> Below is my complete post. The only one doing any snipping here is you. Please be rational or be
> gone!>>>
>
> Are you serious?
>
> You, sir, are an interloper! If you are going to intrude on a subject thread, at least have the
> grace to read the entire thread so you can get running with it and become familiar with the
> subject being discussed.>>>
>
> This is surreal.

You are a one-note Johnny and no longer deserve the courtesy of a respectful reply. And so from now
on I won't. Instead you will get back from me exactly what you give - contempt and excoriation.

But you still do not know how to post as you have not attributed my name to my message that you
are quoting above (I had to type it in myself). Apparently, you do not care if everyone on this
newsgroup thinks you are an idiot. But that is always the way it is when you do not have any self
respect. Since you have no substance in your posts, you might at least learn how to have the
proper form.

Ed Dolan - Minnesota