Calf muscles - is it worth working on them?

[Fday]

Yes, well A.C. isn't exactly my "go-to-guy" for all things training, but I suspect he sees some value in improving pedaling motion for people with my racing priorities (criteriums and track events) as opposed to a person mainly concerned about using self-selected cadences for virtually all of their racing and training. Max has me do some things for improving my pedaling and they help, but he's never suggested using PC's to do that. Perhaps it's because the experiment to try PC's would detract from my training so much, or for so long that for my current 1-2 year plan it's not worth the risk.

That is quite possible.

I still haven't read something from you that convinces me that being able to pedal well with PC's is an improvement. Okay, so I'm using up energy to get small muscles more involved and big muscles used during more of the pedal circle, but I can see how that would be detrimental if we're concerned with doing the most with the available energy.

It doesn't matter if I have convinced you or not. You might learn something about what you think you are doing but not. Many people hop on the bike at an expo and their eyes open up but they don't want to spend the money so the redouble their efforts and the next year when we see them, when they hop on the bike they are better - not as good as they could be but better.

You mentioned the RAAM people jumping on the bike with PC's and being able to ride with the PC's much longer than other people at the Expos. This can be because they tend towards slowr cadences and have much more slow twitch (endurance) fibers from their previous training, including in the little muscles needed to utilize PC's, yes? I do not want to be converting the faster fibers I have to a more endurance-like ability, at least not to an extent anywhere near that of a RAAM rider.

No, I don't think so. It would depend how you used the bike as to what they are going to do to your muscles. If you use it to improve your high cadence work, it will improve those muscles. Aaron Thigpen is a 100 meter sprinter and used the bike to help him recover from an injury. 4 months after getting on the PC's he took 0.2 seconds off the age group record for the 100 m dash. If anyone needs fast twitch fibers it would be a 100 meter man and we didn't hurt him. Now a sprinter like him or yourself is not going to use them like endurance riders. I wouldn't even recommend exclusive use.

The best "virgin" person at PowerCranking I have ever seen (or, at least, heard about, I didn't see him) was an ultracyclist who rode a fixed gear everywhere, even in races. He rode seattle to Portland on the PC's on his 3rd day on them. Even I agreed PC's had nothing to offer him when he sent them back.

 

[Fday]

The hamstrings and quads contraction is independent, but they can both generate a torque about the knee. I should say they can both generate a torque in the same direction!


-Bikeguy

Really????

 

[grom]

Hi. Do calf muscles fitness/strength have a lot to do with on bike performance?
I realise it's the quads that do heaps of the work...but pro riders usually have great looking calves. Is there a reason for this?
Cheers, Paul

my calves look ripped and i never lift weights so it must be the riding

 

[Fday]

But that's precisely the point: essentially, we do. That is, the pattern of force application when pedaling is so stereotypical that 1) it differs little, if at all, between untrained individuals and those who have practiced their technique endlessly, i.e., trained cyclists, 2) as a corollary to #1, no one has demonstrated a superior mastery of pedaling compared to others, and 3) even pedaling backwards doesn't really change the sequence in which our muscles "fire" (probably because we pedal using essentially the same motor pattern we use when walking and running). As a consequence, cycling efficiency varies much less between individuals than, say, running or swimming economy, with said variation being highly correlated with fiber type, but not correlated with any biomechanical parameters.

But, that is precisely the point. Because force application is so stereotypical is exactly what makes it so difficult to change. the fact that something is stereotypical does not necessarily mean it is optimum. Something has to explain the efficiency changes seen by the housewives, Luttrell, and Armstrong (as observed by Coyle). It seems unreasonable to me that substantial changes in fiber type can occur in just a few weeks of moderate training. Maybe it can but regardless, unless the reasons for these observed changes are looked for by the observer and confirmed by data, any explanation as to the basis of the improvement is pure supposition.

...which could be entirely due to biochemical changes, e.g., replacement of type IIx myosin with type IIa (which can happen in a matter of weeks, and does not require a tremendous training load).

Then, why does the pedaling efficiency of trained cyclists vary so widely? If they are all training similarly wouldn't we expect them to all have similar fiber types and similar efficiencies? What is the theoretical absolute maximum increase in pedaling efficiency possible simply due to changes in muscle fibre type from training going from sedentary housewife to Tour de France winner training load?

You shouldn't ASS U ME that just because untrained individuals experience an improvement in their cycling efficiency as a result of training that they have changed their "form".

Nor should you ASS U ME that they have changed their fibre type to account for their efficiency changes.

 

[Fday]

On what basis do you reject this as a potential explanation?

At some point changing of muscle type can't explain all increases in cycling efficiency observed. A short period of low intensity training causing muscle fibre type change to explain observed cycling efficiency improvements seen in sedentary housewives. How come it took 6 years of high intensity training for Lance to see a similar change? What (I am sure this happens all the time) if some one trains intensly and the observed efficiency does not change? How do you explain that?

 

[whoawhoa]

Maybe it can but regardless, unless the reasons for these observed changes are looked for by the observer and confirmed by data, any explanation as to the basis of the improvement is pure supposition.

But it's a more likely supposition, since those observed changes have been demonstrated to improve effiency, while pedaling technique has not, right?

Then, why does the pedaling efficiency of trained cyclists vary so widely? If they are all training similarly wouldn't we expect them to all have similar fiber types and similar efficiencies?

I'm gonna guess genetics. Always nice to be able to blame your parents.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

What i want to know Frank, is where are all the successes with your Power Crank users who are cyclists? You've clearly stated in the past that your average cyclist can gain ~ 40% in power output.

If that was the case, average cyclists would, after using your product be competitive in the Tour de France etc. For e.g., i can sustain ~ 300 W and have a mass of ~ 69 kg. If my power shoots up by 40% i would be able to knock out 420 W (power to mass of 6.1 W/kg).

Given that i'd be riding at such a significantly higher power output, my energy expenditure would be much greater and i'd also lose weight. I predict i'd probably drop to about 67 kg (6.3 W/kg). i'm thinking i'd go top 10 at the Tour de France.

Given that you *must* have sold some of your cranks to average cyclists in the last 8 years (or however long you've been operating), surely someone has replicated that 40% and gone from being average (like myself) to riding into the top 10 of the TdF.

Can you name these riders?

Ric

 

[Fday]

What i want to know Frank, is where are all the successes with your Power Crank users who are cyclists? You've clearly stated in the past that your average cyclist can gain ~ 40% in power output.

If that was the case, average cyclists would, after using your product be competitive in the Tour de France etc. For e.g., i can sustain ~ 300 W and have a mass of ~ 69 kg. If my power shoots up by 40% i would be able to knock out 420 W (power to mass of 6.1 W/kg).

Given that i'd be riding at such a significantly higher power output, my energy expenditure would be much greater and i'd also lose weight. I predict i'd probably drop to about 67 kg (6.3 W/kg). i'm thinking i'd go top 10 at the Tour de France.

Given that you *must* have sold some of your cranks to average cyclists in the last 8 years (or however long you've been operating), surely someone has replicated that 40% and gone from being average (like myself) to riding into the top 10 of the TdF.

Can you name these riders?

Ric

A 40% increase in power for a 20 mile TT in one full season of training (which is what our typical new user will see - some see more and the better ones typically see a little less - 25% maybe) is not quite enough to turn anyone into a pro, let alone a TDF rider, an event that requires 6 hour sustained high efforts for 3 weeks. Now, there have been many TDF riders using the product, even some top 10 riders. Some even admit to it in public. (Garzelli was observed riding them on a "rest" day last year).

I am continually amazed that you seem to think that our claims are tantamount to our claiming we can turn anyone into a TDF podium finisher. That is ludicrous. We will probably have several top 10 users this year, and they started with their PC's at a level most of us can only dream about, even with PowerCranks, and it has taken several years for them to improve to this level. And, I know this isn't the TDF but we did recently have an Olympic gold medal winner and the winner of the Pro Tour, and World TT champion. But, that doesn't mean much I know compared to the TDF. I think I have probably mentioned many of these names before. If you want me to drop them again let me know.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

A 40% increase in power for a 20 mile TT in one full season of training (which is what our typical new user will see - some see more and the better ones typically see a little less - 25% maybe) is not quite enough to turn anyone into a pro, let alone a TDF rider, an event that requires 6 hour sustained high efforts for 3 weeks. Now, there have been many TDF riders using the product, even some top 10 riders. Some even admit to it in public. (Garzelli was observed riding them on a "rest" day last year).

I am continually amazed that you seem to think that our claims are tantamount to our claiming we can turn anyone into a TDF podium finisher. That is ludicrous. We will probably have several top 10 users this year, and they started with their PC's at a level most of us can only dream about, even with PowerCranks, and it has taken several years for them to improve to this level. And, I know this isn't the TDF but we did recently have an Olympic gold medal winner and the winner of the Pro Tour, and World TT champion. But, that doesn't mean much I know compared to the TDF. I think I have probably mentioned many of these names before. If you want me to drop them again let me know.

Okay, as you don't seem to understand about bike racing, i'll say it another way: how many of your average users have gone on to break the *ELITE MALE* World 1-hour TT record?

Ric

 

[Fday]

Okay, as you don't seem to understand about bike racing, i'll say it another way: how many of your average users have gone on to break the *ELITE MALE* World 1-hour TT record?

Ric

None. Further, I would expect that in the future that number will remain the same, at least regarding my average user. The words typical and elite usually are not in the same sentence. What is the problem?

 

[Billsworld]

Ok, after 3 days of this, how shall we execute Fday.?

 

[SolarEnergy]

What does this have to do with selection of foot position during cycling? Is ankling better than not ankling, and should the foot be extended when coming over the top? Or the reverse? Or in between?

-Bikeguy

I gave it a try earlier this year. A conscious ankling effort.

I now know only one thing : I hate that, there's no way that I am going to even give that a second chance.

Often while training I look at professional races (Tours and Triathlons) and notice that some riders *seem* to be ankling. So I videotaped myself ankling vs not ankling. They both look the same.

My conclusion was that it's difficult to know if someone is consciously ankling just by looking at him.

Here was my "ankling" thread back then http://www.cyclingforums.com/showpost.php?p=2440114&postcount=1

 

[Fday]

Ok, after 3 days of this, how shall we execute Fday.?

Put me into an .exe file and then double click?

 

[WarrenG]

Put me into an .exe file and then double click?

If you had a Mac you could do it with one click-more efficient you know.

 

[Fday]

If you had a Mac you could do it with one click-more efficient you know.

I do have a Mac (several of them, which is more evidence I am as smart as I think I am ) but i suspect Bill doesn't (perhaps a 95% chance I am right) and he wanted to know how to execute me.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

None. Further, I would expect that in the future that number will remain the same, at least regarding my average user. The words typical and elite usually are not in the same sentence. What is the problem?

So then you should remove your claim that Power Cranks increase power by ~ 40%. Simply, as demonstrated above an "average" (as you previously defined) racer who increases their power by 40% would likely break the Elite Male World Hour Record.

Ric

 

[Billsworld]

I do have a Mac (several of them, which is more evidence I am as smart as I think I am ) but i suspect Bill doesn't (perhaps a 95% chance I am right) and he wanted to know how to execute me.

After the Mac comment, I am going to stand over with the angry mob

 

[mitosis]

A 40% increase in power for a 20 mile TT in one full season of training (which is what our typical new user will see - some see more and the better ones typically see a little less - 25% maybe) is not quite enough to turn anyone into a pro, let alone a TDF rider, an event that requires 6 hour sustained high efforts for 3 weeks. Now, there have been many TDF riders using the product, even some top 10 riders. Some even admit to it in public. (Garzelli was observed riding them on a "rest" day last year).

I am continually amazed that you seem to think that our claims are tantamount to our claiming we can turn anyone into a TDF podium finisher. That is ludicrous. We will probably have several top 10 users this year, and they started with their PC's at a level most of us can only dream about, even with PowerCranks, and it has taken several years for them to improve to this level. And, I know this isn't the TDF but we did recently have an Olympic gold medal winner and the winner of the Pro Tour, and World TT champion. But, that doesn't mean much I know compared to the TDF. I think I have probably mentioned many of these names before. If you want me to drop them again let me know.

Great to see you haven't given up on your extavagant claims Fday. Is there a study or two that I haven't read that might back them up or is it all still anecdotal?

 

[Orange Fish]

No I can't dig it, I can't seem to flex my knee at all using my calf muscles. Try it, you dont need to read a book. Or look a little wider "Action - Powerful plantar flexor of ankle" connected to "posterior nonarticular surface of medial femoral condyle" http://www.rad.washington.edu/atlas2/gastrocnemius.html

I haven't gotten through the rest of the pages of this discussion, but wanted to reply to this specific message to end this discussion of what the calf does.

While the gastroc is a powerful plantar flexor and assists in knee flexion, it is also responsible for extending the knee in a closed chain. In a closed chain movement, the gastroc will be responsible for plantar flexion and assisting with knee extension. In an open chain movement, it will assist in knee flexion.

Cycling is a closed-chain exercise. Therefore, talking about the gastroc assisting in knee flexion is useless. In cycling, it could be activated during the downstroke for isometric plantar flexion and knee extension.

 

[Orange Fish]

Ok finally got through the rest of it...what's the deal with the PC's??!! I just spent a good 40 minutes reading the last couple of pages and I'm hanging on the edge of my seat to see more evidence for and against them!!