CRASH! It's not worth $6,000 any more :-(



Rich wrote:
> Neil Brooks wrote:
>
> > In trying to prepare to do better next time, though, I'm realizing
> > just how mission critical it is to--as John Forester has always
> > said--"act and be treated as a driver of a vehicle."

>
> You may have the power to act as a driver of a vehicle, but

unfortunatly
> it's not within your power to be treated as a driver of a vehicle;

that
> power lies with those doing the treating. And even drivers of

vehicles
> are sometimes hit by other drivers.


This is true. Nothing's 100% reliable.

>
> > In other words, I was reluctant to "take the lane" because it was a
> > less-than-bike-friendly area. That was my fault, either for

cycling
> > in such an area in the first place, or for failing to resolve that
> > reluctance and take the darned lane regardless.

>
> While I'm all for learning from bad experiences, it appears to me

this
> was just a stroke of bad luck. I think you did what you were

supposed
> to; sometimes things just don't go your way.


This is false. While I sympathize, Neil did not do what he was
supposed to do!

>
> When something bad happens, it's easy to second guess your actions.

But
> maybe if you had "taken the lane" you'd have been mowed down by an 18


> wheeler.


I disagree.

The idea behind taking the lane is that there's much less risk of being
deliberately hit by a motorist (whether in a Geo Metro or an 18
wheeler) than by an opening door. The entire idea between riding in
the door zone is that there's less risk to the opening door.

The latter idea is simply wrong. Percentage-wise, you're odds are a
lot better away from the doors.

I think that if you portray these as equal risks, you'll be inviting
lots more people to make the mistake Neil made. We don't need more
dinged-up $6000 bikes!

Again, I feel sorry for Neil. I'm glad he's OK, and I hope his bike is
perfectly repairable. But he did make a mistake, one we can learn from.
 
Titanium is a pretty forgiving metal (it tends to return to orignial shape
without being brittle) but that depends on how bad the damage is I guess..

Glad you're ok.

bart
 
[email protected] wrote:

>It really sucks when that happens. But sometimes, no matter how
>careful you are, things like sun or whatever,can't be avoided. I know
>experienced cyclists who've had accidents because of sun in their
>eyes.


The REAL issue with sun is when it's in the eyes of those who have the
opportunity to pull in front of you, or turn in front of you. This
time of year when I'm riding west (in the morning) or east (in the
afternoon), the sun is directly behind me to those coming the other
way. People waiting to pull out from my right are looking directly
into the sun for traffic as well.

I once VERY nearly got to REALLY test my "bouncability" due to a
sun-related near miss. I pulled up behind a couple other bikes at a
stoplight. It's an odd intersection, where we had to cross a one-lane
frontage road, then a four-lane major surface street. I was chatting
with a couple on a tandem and another guy on a road bike waiting for
the light to change. It changed, we calmly pulled away from our side
of the road, crossed the frontage road and were crossing the westbound
lanes when the guy on the single yelled "STOP!!!!". We did. In time
to see a teenage girl driving (a strong word for it...) a compact car
slide through the intersection with all four wheels locked. Now keep
in mind that light had been changed for at least 5-6 seconds at that
point, but the sun was at the perfect angle to make it difficult to
see (apparently too difficult to TRY to see... grrrrrr) the light.

I'm normally VERY careful to check both ways in all lanes for oncoming
traffic, but that morning I was distracted by the other riders, and
simply wasn't thinking about the possibilty there would be a couple
tons of metal hurtling through the intersection that long after the
light changed. If the other rider hadn't yelled, we'd have been right
in front of that car when it went through the intersection.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

>B i l l S o r n s o n wrote:
>
>> Neil Brooks wrote:
>>
>>>Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>If I were to hit a car door, I would rather be riding a heavy
>>>>recumbent with a full fairing made from steel tubing and sheet metal.
>>>>See
>>>><http://www.outsideconnection.com/gallant/hpv/joe/outtaMyWay_1.mpg>,
>>>><http://www.outsideconnection.com/gallant/hpv/joe/outtaMyWay_2.mpg>,
>>>><http://www.outsideconnection.com/gallant/hpv/joe/>.
>>>
>>>Ah, the Bunker Buster 'Bent. That's the ticket!

>>
>> Let's see a parker see THAT in his/her r-v mirror!

>
>The point is to rip the car door off the hinges, not to avoid it. ;)


Heh... but I think it would be like one of those early 50's cars - you
hit something head-on and the car is easily repaired, but the
occupants are reduced to bags full of gelatin...

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
"S o r n i" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Neil Brooks wrote:
>> "Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> We all feel for you, Neil. Hope you (and the bike) are soon as good
>>> as new.

>>
>> Thanks, Bob.
>>
>> Since you probably hear enough people ranting about *their* negative
>> encounter with people in your line of work, I'll just say that the one
>> who showed up to help me out was fantastic: calm, cool, compassionate,
>> professional, and sympathetic.
>>
>> Not bad looking, either. Something about a Glock in a Sam Brown
>> belt... ;-)

>
>Hey, she asked for my phone number, too! Do you think...?
>
>My way of adding that the cop was FEMALE, Witness *****


I have to admit I WAS a little worried about that gender thing,
Bill...

Mark "not that there's anything wrong with that..." Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
"S o r n i" <[email protected]> wrote:

>An understatement, my dear. (What the hell are you doing posting on a
>SATURDAY? Go in to "work"? )
>
>Considering that both of my ex-wives were tall, slender blondes, maybe that
>short, round African American policewoman MIGHT change my luck.


Bill, Bill, Bill...

Think about your ex wives...

Now think about having an ARMED ex-wife.

Shuddddder.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Neil Brooks <[email protected]> wrote:

>It didn't take long (no shock there) for me to start figuring out what
>I could have done differently. The best and only answer was, "Idiot!
>You knew better! Stay out of the door zone. If you didn't think the
>locals in *that* area would be hospitable toward a cyclist taking the
>lane, you should have been cycling elsewhere."
>
>I'm more than happy to have my little episode serve as a painful
>reminder to others that the Door Zone is to be avoided like the
>plague.


Hey, it's always just a matter of playing the odds. I know that I've
made the decision to move into the door zone before, for various
reasons - avoiding what seemed to be a bigger threat - you can't be
absolute about much when it comes to how you ride to survive. Better
to just try to be as far mentally ahead of any potential situation as
possible, and make the best decisions you can at the time. It won't
always be the right one. I mean after all, guys like Tom Sherman
DECIDE to ride 'bents, so that should be obvious. ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:13:51 -0700, Mark Hickey wrote:

> Heh... but I think it would be like one of those early 50's cars - you hit
> something head-on and the car is easily repaired, but the occupants are
> reduced to bags full of gelatin...


The word you're looking for is aspic...bloody bags of aspic. :D

The old VW buses were great too, using your legs to protect the tranny in
the event of a crash. :p
 
Mark Hickey wrote:
> "S o r n i" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> An understatement, my dear. (What the hell are you doing posting on
>> a SATURDAY? Go in to "work"? )
>>
>> Considering that both of my ex-wives were tall, slender blondes,
>> maybe that short, round African American policewoman MIGHT change my
>> luck.

>
> Bill, Bill, Bill...
>
> Think about your ex wives...
>
> Now think about having an ARMED ex-wife.
>
> Shuddddder.


Ya know, Mark, sometimes quick and painless is...appealing!

Bill "#2 was good with pots 'n pans" S.
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

> Hey, it's always just a matter of playing the odds. I know that I've
> made the decision to move into the door zone before, for various
> reasons - avoiding what seemed to be a bigger threat - you can't be
> absolute about much when it comes to how you ride to survive. Better
> to just try to be as far mentally ahead of any potential situation as
> possible, and make the best decisions you can at the time. It won't
> always be the right one. I mean after all, guys like Tom Sherman
> DECIDE to ride 'bents, so that should be obvious. ;-)


Something like this <http://www.ransbikes.com/2005bikes/Rocket.htm>
would be better for crashing into an open car door than an upright
bicycle. Additionally, it turns the advantage from the pedestrian to the
cyclist in a collision between the two.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth (Downstate Illinois, North of Forgottonia)
 
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:13:12 GMT, Neil Brooks <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>We all feel for you, Neil. Hope you (and the bike) are soon as good as
>>new.

>
>Thanks, Bob.
>
>Since you probably hear enough people ranting about *their* negative
>encounter with people in your line of work, I'll just say that the one
>who showed up to help me out was fantastic: calm, cool, compassionate,
>professional, and sympathetic.
>
>Not bad looking, either. Something about a Glock in a Sam Brown
>belt... ;-)


A gendarmette, they've got some cute ones. Not real helpful when you've got a
raging crackhead on your heads, but perfect for responding to accidents.


Best for you and the bike.

Ron
 
Sun, 27 Mar 2005 01:37:58 GMT,
<[email protected]>, Mike Latondresse
<mikelat@no_spam_shaw.ca> wrote:

>"S o r n i" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Bill "#2 was good with pots 'n pans" S.
>>

>Mine too, we should get together sometime and compare scars.


My only wife, now ex, disposed of her arsenal before emigrating.

She kept her Judo training. Only when she couldn't beat you with logic
would she go hormonal.

Buy cast iron cookware so she can't throw it as far.
--
zk
 
On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 09:08:07 -0600, Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:
>> Neil Brooks <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I don't know much about titanium welds and carbon fiber vis-a-vis how
>>>they hold up to accidents. Neither do I know how much the force
>>>sustained by the various bike parts was. All I know is my beautiful
>>>new bike got all banged up today, and me with it. I also know that
>>>Bill Sornson got to watch, and is a darned good guy to have along when
>>>the worst happens.

>>
>>
>> Neil, if it's any comfort, it's very likely your frame wasn't tweaked
>> at all. Moots and Habanero road frames are very, very similar in
>> terms of materials and construction - and I've had customers report
>> really awful impacts that didn't do diddly squat to their frames
>> (including several "enter garage with roof rack-mounted Habby on
>> top"). The front wheel likely took enough of the impact to cushion
>> the blow to the frame. A "string test" would show any misalignment
>> that would be likely to happen from such an impact (other than the
>> obvious bent down tube, of course).
>>
>> The other really good news is that a brushed ti frame can be
>> "refinished" in just a few minutes (or even seconds for a "touch up")
>> with a piece of very fine sandpaper or Scotchbrite pad. Any minor
>> scrapes you got on the frame can be fixed, leaving nary a hint of the
>> horror they previously portrayed. If you'd been riding a Colnago,
>> you'd really be sad right now....

>
>If I were to hit a car door, I would rather be riding a heavy recumbent
>with a full fairing made from steel tubing and sheet metal.
>See <http://www.outsideconnection.com/gallant/hpv/joe/outtaMyWay_1.mpg>,
><http://www.outsideconnection.com/gallant/hpv/joe/outtaMyWay_2.mpg>,
><http://www.outsideconnection.com/gallant/hpv/joe/>.



The bike that makes cycling safe for all others. Ride that beast around town for
awhile and those peds and car people will learn to look first.


Ron
 
Mike Latondresse wrote:
> "S o r n i" <[email protected]> wrote:



>> Bill "#2 was good with pots 'n pans" S.


> Mine too, we should get together sometime and compare scars.


Actually, to be fair, she only RATTLED 'em extremely loudly.

Only things I recall her /throwing/ at me were flowers I'd bought her that
weren't up to her standards.

Good times...

Bill "still a little nervous around daisies (and knives)" S.
 
Rich wrote:
>
> While I'm all for learning from bad experiences, it appears to me

this
> was just a stroke of bad luck. I think you did what you were

supposed
> to; sometimes things just don't go your way.
>
> When something bad happens, it's easy to second guess your actions.

But
> maybe if you had "taken the lane" you'd have been mowed down by an 18


> wheeler. As it stands, it appears both you and the bike are
> repairable. Not a great day, but not a horrible one either.


I guess I'm fortunate, I learned about the door zone when my
then-roommate totaled his nice Peugeot in 1970 on a Boston driver's
door. It's tempting to think you can see a door opening in time to
respond, but you can't. The reality is, if you ride there, it'll
happen, it's just a matter of time.

A local cyclist died not long ago when, after striking a door, she fell
under the wheels of a passing bus. Unfortunately, being doored and
"mowed down" aren't mutually exclusive possibilities. In fact, getting
doored is likely to throw you into traffic.

It's not a choice between the lesser of two evils, it's just a bad
choice. Don't ride there!
 
maxo <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 16:13:51 -0700, Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>> Heh... but I think it would be like one of those early 50's cars - you hit
>> something head-on and the car is easily repaired, but the occupants are
>> reduced to bags full of gelatin...

>
>The word you're looking for is aspic...bloody bags of aspic. :D
>
>The old VW buses were great too, using your legs to protect the tranny in
>the event of a crash. :p


I had one of those... it was an odd feeling driving with my feet
virtually resting on the back of the front bumper. I decided early on
not to hit anything with it.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>> Hey, it's always just a matter of playing the odds. I know that I've
>> made the decision to move into the door zone before, for various
>> reasons - avoiding what seemed to be a bigger threat - you can't be
>> absolute about much when it comes to how you ride to survive. Better
>> to just try to be as far mentally ahead of any potential situation as
>> possible, and make the best decisions you can at the time. It won't
>> always be the right one. I mean after all, guys like Tom Sherman
>> DECIDE to ride 'bents, so that should be obvious. ;-)

>
>Something like this <http://www.ransbikes.com/2005bikes/Rocket.htm>
>would be better for crashing into an open car door than an upright
>bicycle. Additionally, it turns the advantage from the pedestrian to the
>cyclist in a collision between the two.


Yeah, but just think of the psychological damage you do to yourself
every time you're seen riding that thing in public. ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Peter Cole wrote:

> I guess I'm fortunate, I learned about the door zone when my
> then-roommate totaled his nice Peugeot in 1970 on a Boston driver's
> door. It's tempting to think you can see a door opening in time to
> respond, but you can't. The reality is, if you ride there, it'll
> happen, it's just a matter of time.


I'll heed the warning, although my rides rarely go by parked cars.... I
guess I'm fortunate in that.

Rich
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Okay, I'll be the one to state the obvious. For The Record, whether
> that bike needs repairs or total replacement, the cager is liable. File a
> claim with his insurance company ASAP.


I don't really know, but I'm thinking his auto insurance will NOT cover
it, as he wasn't moving at the time (and he wasnt' even driving). Which
means maybe he'll have to come up with the money out of his own pocket?

As I said, I'm not sure, but woudl be interested in knowing.

Rich