Does this seem comical to anyone else?

[helmutRoole2]

I think that micro dosing might have the effect of normalising endogenous EPO production and you may not necessarily ee the complete rise.

I think this is why most drugs are cycled. To maintain the body's noraml parameters and only get the lift when it is needed.


Helmut, how do you think Armstrong would have managed to maintain a progam like Hamilton when he was getting hit more often with randoms?

Is there another "clear" floating around somewhere. Armstrong could not supplemment with a steroid witht he relative impugnity Hamilton could.

I have to admit. I don't know. It's good point. But, the tests are lax. I mean, when you can have epi test levels (formerly) ten times the normal range, that seems a ringing endorsement of drug use. EPO can be micro dosed, and, only recently has there been an EPO test. Also, don't forget blood doping. Not detectable either.

And, I'm sure if I don't point it out someone else will, but Armstrong did make some formidable "donations" to WADA.

 

[helmutRoole2]

The anecdotal evidence is interesting but not convincing at all. People saying they feel better when using HgH and they think it has improved their performance are pretty much worthless compared to a controlled study. Hell, I feel better a little while after I start exercising or I increase my volume/intensity.

I also don't think the argument that riders would not use something if it were not effective is very convincing. There is a long history or people using ergogenics that have been shown to be ineffective. Everything from bee pollen to baking soda falls has been and continues to be used.

My point is that EPO has been shown through extensive tesing to improve VO2Max by 8 -10%. Stuff like steroids and HgH have not been shown to significantly affect aerobic capacity. I suspect that most of the gain Hamilton made through doping come from EPO and blood doping rather than the other stuff he was on. The people who are most likely to know the facts are probably doctors Conconi, Ferrari, and Checchini.

I hear ya, Bro. There are no studies, so we can't conclude one way or the other. But I think at some point studies will point to HgH as a big time performance enhancer when taken over six months to year.

 

[thunder]

my previous point on the body's normal parameters was ambiguous.

I meant consistent supplementation of chemicals the body produces naturally can trigger the body into shutting off its own production.

Thus a natural 42 'crit with a one time microdose can lift the crit, but perpetual mmicrodosing with EPO forces the body to compensate and produce less and the 'crit returns to 42 even with the microdosed EPO.

 

[Bro Deal]

Well... You guys certainly know more about this stuff than I do. But what if a rider microdoses throughout the year to maintain a reasonably high crit level? Then it would not be possible to establish an unusual trend, like a rise in the average level. Not only that, I just don't think a 6% jump in crit level is going to be enough for a rider's own team to report him. Let alone ban him! That doesn't even constitute proof of doping by UCI standards. As long as you're below 50%, you're good to go. And it's my understanding that if an athlete is microdosing, it's impossible to test for exogenous EPO, which is why microdosing is supposedly so prevelent now. So that's sort of irrelevent. It would be nice if a progeam like this could be made to work. I'm just a little sceptical.

The testing is I think more sophisticated than simply monitoring Hct. As a rider gets in better shape, their Hct should drop as blood plasma volume increases. I also think they are monitoring reticulocytes and other things that could indicate blood manipulation. Even if it is not completely effective, it will make defeating the tests more difficult and that is a step in the right direction.

 

[meehs]

The anecdotal evidence is interesting but not convincing at all. People saying they feel better when using HgH and they think it has improved their performance are pretty much worthless compared to a controlled study. Hell, I feel better a little while after I start exercising or I increase my volume/intensity.

I also don't think the argument that riders would not use something if it were not effective is very convincing. There is a long history or people using ergogenics that have been shown to be ineffective. Everything from bee pollen to baking soda falls has been and continues to be used.

My point is that EPO has been shown through extensive tesing to improve VO2Max by 8 -10%. Stuff like steroids and HgH have not been shown to significantly affect aerobic capacity. I suspect that most of the gain Hamilton made through doping come from EPO and blood doping rather than the other stuff he was on. The people who are most likely to know the facts are probably doctors Conconi, Ferrari, and Checchini.

These guys are right on the hairy edge with body fat percentages approaching zero. I wonder if the steroids and HgH help them maintain some level of physical strength when they'd otherwise feel wiped-out. But that's just pure speculation on my part.

I'm sure you're right in that the folks who know the facts about this sort of thing are folks like Conconi, Ferrari, etc... I think that's a big part of the problem. Those guys (and others like them) are way more advanced in their doping methods and methods of beating the tests than the guys who are trying to catch them.

 

[Bro Deal]

I think this is why most drugs are cycled. To maintain the body's noraml parameters and only get the lift when it is needed.

Although this is certainly true with steroids, I am not sure if it is true for EPO. There are stories that using exogenous EPO will shut down the bodies own production of EPO but I don't know if that means you have to go off the junk for periods of time.

Helmut, how do you think Armstrong would have managed to maintain a progam like Hamilton when he was getting hit more often with randoms?

Was Armstrong getting tested more often? The top fifty (I think) riders are all subject to random out of competition testing. I think the key is that the current testing is almost worthless, so it did not matter how much Hamilton was juicing. What did him in was a mistake combined with lack of knowledge about the new blood testing.

 

[meehs]

The testing is I think more sophisticated than simply monitoring Hct. As a rider gets in better shape, their Hct should drop as blood plasma volume increases. I also think they are monitoring reticulocytes and other things that could indicate blood manipulation. Even if it is not completely effective, it will make defeating the tests more difficult and that is a step in the right direction.

Okay you're getting way over my head now. But I do understand the basic message of what you're saying. And anything that can make it more difficult to beat the tests is a step in the right direction. I just want it all to happen right now. All at once! I know that's naive but until that happens you have a situation where "artificially enhanced" performances will be trumping natural ones.

 

[Saline.feed]

Okay you're getting way over my head now. But I do understand the basic message of what you're saying. And anything that can make it more difficult to beat the tests is a step in the right direction. I just want it all to happen right now. All at once! I know that's naive but until that happens you have a situation where "artificially enhanced" performances will be trumping natural ones.

Sporting drug tests are designed, budgeted, scheduled, administered and subcontracted in a way so that NOBODY gets caught (unless overdosed) and/or EVERYONE is innocent when found drugged. eg: The Tour of California DID no drug tests whatsoever. Not only NO EPO urine test---but no nothing sampled whatsoever on stage 2. I was there.

When a few urine samples are collected and analyzed---nobody gets supended for months, years or ever. Due process for cheats.

eg:
Lance Armstrong (failed tests but is still inncocent)
Floyd Landis (failed tests but is still innocent)
Tyler Hamilton (failed tests and still pleading his innocence)
Jan Ulrich (never failed a drug test)
Frankie Andreu (never failed a drug test)
David Millar (never failed a drug test)
Johan Museeuw (never failed a test)
Eddie Merkx (failed three tests but is still loved)
Laurent Fignon (flunked two tests but is still loved)

Richard Pound may talk tough---but it just hot air and effective public relations work on behalf of his masters over at the IOC. WADA has no authority, no power, no financial resources, no support from fans, no support by underwriters. WADA is a dog and pony show for a small fee. The money is in doping, not anti-doping.

Honest drug testing is BAD for business. The promoters want the best dopers for a good draw. Other than the families, few spectators turn up to a local bike race of amateurs.

It is a classic conflict of interest. That is why no testosterone tests are performed. Everyone sampled would FLUNK if they did that.

 

[Tim Lamkin]

Sporting drug tests are designed, budgeted, scheduled, administered and subcontracted in a way so that NOBODY gets caught (unless overdosed) and/or EVERYONE is innocent when found drugged. eg: The Tour of California DID no drug tests whatsoever. Not only NO EPO urine test---but no nothing sampled whatsoever on stage 2. I was there.

When a few urine samples are collected and analyzed---nobody gets supended for months, years or ever. Due process for cheats.

eg:
Lance Armstrong (failed tests but is still inncocent)
Floyd Landis (failed tests but is still innocent)
Tyler Hamilton (failed tests and still pleading his innocence)
Jan Ulrich (never failed a drug test)
Frankie Andreu (never failed a drug test)
David Millar (never failed a drug test)
Johan Museeuw (never failed a test)
Eddie Merkx (failed three tests but is still loved)
Laurent Fignon (flunked two tests but is still loved)

Richard Pound may talk tough---but it just hot air and effective public relations work on behalf of his masters over at the IOC. WADA has no authority, no power, no financial resources, no support from fans, no support by underwriters. WADA is a dog and pony show for a small fee. The money is in doping, not anti-doping.

Honest drug testing is BAD for business. The promoters want the best dopers for a good draw. Other than the families, few spectators turn up to a local bike race of amateurs.

It is a classic conflict of interest. That is why no testosterone tests are performed. Everyone sampled would FLUNK if they did that.

WOW did not take very long for you to get back in

 

[RobertCZ]

UCI to use CSC's anti-doping program as model
The team report that 300 out-of-competition tests conducted on its riders have all returned negative.

Interesting that the word random is missing.

I bet they tested the same sample 300 times.

 

[helmutRoole2]

Interesting that the word random is missing.

I bet they tested the same sample 300 times.

Yeah, probably. They're all, "David Z, we need to drug test you for the 140th time. What? Oh, no need to drop your drawers, we've still got the sample we used the last 139 times. If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

[thunder]

Interesting that the word random is missing.

I bet they tested the same sample 300 times.

I agree with Bro, I think that the testing should be hematocrit twice weekly in season, once weekly out of, and hematocrit and reticulyte once weekly in season. IF they can gauge reticulyte with the hematocrit do both. If they need to take more than 50mls of blood that is too much to be doing it more than weekly though. Even weekly is a tough ask, that is almost one percent of blood volume. That is disadvantage that penalises when the system should not.

If they want to test for testosterone, the IRMs should be used exclusively.

 

[helmutRoole2]

Here's a pretty good article about detecting testosterone. Plain English:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2006-08-01-catlin-q-and-a_x.htm

 

[Tim Lamkin]

That is a very good one and easy to understand...I like it, and learned something thanks...wish we could discuss drugs...intellectually and intelligently…..would like to learn more, without the ranting

 

[Saline.feed]

That is a very good one and easy to understand...I like it, and learned something thanks...wish we could discuss drugs...intellectually and intelligently…..would like to learn more, without the ranting

But then Tim Lamkin would have to accept that his heroes are all on drugs.

That's why testing is NEVER helpful to solving the fraud.

 

[Tim Lamkin]

Sorry to bust you FF....I have no heroes ....surly not one on a bike

 

[patch70]

Helmut, how do you think Armstrong would have managed to maintain a progam like Hamilton when he was getting hit more often with randoms?

Is there another "clear" floating around somewhere. Armstrong could not supplemment with a steroid witht he relative impugnity Hamilton could.

One option for anabolic steroid +/or corticosteroid use is to combine small doses of many different but similar agents. Thus you get the therapeutic benefit but each individual agent is below the threshold for detection.

 

[meehs]

One option for anabolic steroid +/or corticosteroid use is to combine small doses of many different but similar agents. Thus you get the therapeutic benefit but each individual agent is below the threshold for detection.

That's intersting! Also something I've never heard before.

 

[Saline.feed]

That's intersting! Also something I've never heard before.

It is called Polypharmacy. Cocktails of doping to evoke a result.

I guess you never looked closely at the 1998 TDF inventory of Team Festina then.

Or reviewed the 2000 TDF Lance Armstrong USPO medical waste dumped into a Draguignan dumpster, filmed by French TV-3

Or studied Tyler Hamilton's medial dossiers from Operation Puerto downloaded onto the internet.

Postmenopause hormones and Deca Durabolin go together nicely, eh?

hCG & testosterone & hGH?

Corticoids and hGH?

Insulin, glucose and IGF-1?

EPO AND double spinner transfusions?

Prozac and Pot belge.

 

[tcklyde]

EPO is half the equation. Look at Hamilton's prescriptions from OP: IGF-1, HgH, Testosterone, some other steroid that I can't remember and EPO. All of those are injected. I can't imagine someone injecting that much stuff if they weren't getting results.

Check out this thread: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=253402

Forums are the place to look into these issues. People are out there using these drugs recreationally and sharing their experiences.

Here's another forum: http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=9

Well reading those forum posts was pretty depressing. I compete mostly in running events at a very local level and I'm not in a position to be winning anything, but I can do well. To think that people might be cheating in a local race in Oregon is pretty damn sad. Losers. I'm so naive.