Dura Ace vs Ultegra hubs



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"Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > I initially felt that Dura Ace would be worth the extra money, almost
> > double
> > > the price of the ultegra for a rear hub and only a little more for the
> > front
> > > hub, but looking closer, it appears that all I am getting for the
extra
> > > money is a titanium which only lightens the hub by 35gr or 1.2 oz..
The
> > > front DA would save only 20.5 gr or .72 oz, but would probably be
worth
> it
> > > since it only cost a few dollars more. These hubs would be for my and
> my
> > > wife's touring bikes. As far as the difference in quality of the
hubs,
> it
> > > appears that they are the same.
> > >
> > > Am I missing anything?
> > >
> > I always thought it was the harder races and better bearings that made
D/A
> > better. I've had both Ultegra/600 and D/A, and have found that the D/A feels smoother when
> > spinning the axle. Even better are my Mavic hubs...
>
> OK, that is good to hear. I was afraid that it was just the titanium that made the DA more
> expensive. Still Sheldon seems to think that the extra money is really prestige. How much better
> are your Mavic hubs over the DA's and are they lighter, if so by how much. Also, what is the
difference
> in cost?
> >
Mavic stopped making hubs to concentrate on whole wheels. No more individual hubs for you! The
Mavics aren't too much different than the D/A hubs weight-wise, but new they were A LOT more
expensive. I bought the hub on
D.a.marketplace for about $90 last summer. Basically they do the same job as D/A: they hold the
cassette and spin around in circles. Its the chi-chi factor, and the fact that it was 1. hard to
find, and 2. matches the front hub that I enjoy the most.

Now if I could only find a pair of their new brakes used...

Mike
 
"Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > wayne-<< These hubs would be for my and my
> > > wife's touring bikes
> >
> > DuraAce are lighter otherwise i think that Ultegra is a fine choice BUT
> have
> > them taken apart, lots of grease added and adjusted when new...
>
> I don't understand. Why would you do this when they are new? Also,
aren't
> they sealed? So, I would imagine that they wouldn't require maintenance
for
> quite some time.

They are sealed, fairly nicely in fact. What they are not is well-lubed and often not well-adjusted.
It's often hit-and-miss, but not worth the gamble. Peter is doing it right.

Robin Hubert
 
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> wayne-<< These hubs would be for my and my
> > wife's touring bikes
>
> DuraAce are lighter otherwise i think that Ultegra is a fine choice BUT
have
> them taken apart, lots of grease added and adjusted when new...

I don't understand. Why would you do this when they are new? Also, aren't they sealed? So, I would
imagine that they wouldn't require maintenance for quite some time.
>
>
> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
"Bluto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> "Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote:
>
> > I've had both Ultegra/600 and D/A, and have found that
the D/A
> > feels smoother when spinning the axle. Even better are
my Mavic hubs...
>
> It's 'cause those Mavic hubs have industrial standard
sealed bearing
> cartridges, like every other kind of high quality rotating
machinery
> on earth besides bicycles.
>
> A $20 SunRace hub with sealed bearings is smoother than
Dura Ace and
> Ultegra too. Same for Phil Wood, Bullseye, American
Classic, Hi-E,
> Suntour, Sachs, Chris King, Real, White Industries,
Ringle, Paul, Nuke
> Proof, Formula, Hadley, TNT, etc., etc., and all others
who make
> (made) hubs with sealed cartridge bearings.
>
> But none from Shimano! Nor Campagnolo; they use cartridge
bearings
> some, but not industrially standard units.
>
> Perhaps it would lack a certain mystique for them to offer
reliable,
> smooth running, replaceable rolling element hubs that
never needed
> adjustment.

The main advantage of "industrial standard" bearings is that they're readily available to small
manufacturers who don't have the tooling to produce cup and cone arrangements like Shimano and
Campy. All you have to do is find the right size in a catalog and order it. Other than that, I'd
wager that the cup and cone bearings are superior -- able to handle axial loads, and thus properly
preloadable, as well as being far more serviceable. The "smoothness" you feel when spinning a
bearing by hand means practically nothing. Besides that, bearing drag is insignificant in the
overall picture anyway -- it's all aerodynamics, tire rolling resistance, and chain friction.

Matt O.
 
"Robin Hubert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > wayne-<< These hubs would be for my and my
> > > > wife's touring bikes
> > >
> > > DuraAce are lighter otherwise i think that Ultegra is a fine choice BUT
> have
> > > them taken apart, lots of grease added and adjusted when new...
> >
> > I don't understand. Why would you do this when they are new? Also,
> aren't
> > they sealed? So, I would imagine that they wouldn't require maintenance
> for
> > quite some time.
>
> They are sealed, fairly nicely in fact. What they are not is well-lubed and often not
> well-adjusted. It's often hit-and-miss, but not worth the gamble. Peter is doing it right.
>
Agree. One other factor for choosing DuraAce over Ultegra is warranty. Dura Ace has a 3 year
warranty, Ultegra is 2 years. This may not matter much for hubs, but something worth considering for
STI shifters since those can not be repaired...
 
"Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > >These hubs would be for my and my wife's touring bikes

> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > DuraAce are lighter otherwise i think that Ultegra is a fine choice BUT
> have
> > them taken apart, lots of grease added and adjusted when new...

wayne-> I don't understand. Why would you do this when they are new? Also, aren't
> they sealed? So, I would imagine that they wouldn't require maintenance
for
> quite some time.

Their hubs, like almost all loose-ball systems, are delivered with just enough lubricant to prevent
rust during shipping. If you intend to actually ride the things, open, grease and adjust first.

And "sealed" has so many meanings it has become meaningless. Is it a simple dustcap? An O-ring? A
floating shield? Depends. The ones on bicycle hubs are pretty lame. They certainly won't stop salt
water from the streets from penetrating on a slushy day if you had not enhanced the factory
lubricant.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
 
[email protected] (Jon Isaacs) wrote:
>
> It is clear that timken tapered roller bearings as used on cars and trucks and industial equipment
> of all types are most often not cartridge bearings, nor are they sealed. It is true they are most
> often standardized.

Timken TSL series bearings are sealed. The more common TS series without seals still have the nature
of cartridge bearings even though they are two piece assemblies. In fact, there are many machine
applications where a bearing seat can be occupied by a Timken bearing or ball bearing cartridge
interchangeably.

> I merely pointed out that most serious equipment doesn't use "standard sealed cartridge bearings"
> as you claimed but rather separate beings where the outer race and sometimes the inner race is
> separate from the bearing rollers and balls.
>
> And of course, this is how bicycle wheel bearing are built, except they are not standardized
> except for the balls.

In the Timken bearing you use as an example, the rollers are held in a retainer which is captured on
the inner race. That is a unit, and the outer race is a unit. There is a verifiable alignment
between the bore in the bearing and the inner race surface.

Contrast a bicycle wheel bearing as made by Shimano. The balls are loose, not even held in a
retainer, and it's not self-evident how many of them should be used. The outer race is a disposable
unit inasmuch as the entire wheel is rendered disposable by it. The inner race is poorly finished
and aligned by a nonprecision female thread riding on a nonprecision threaded axle. The annulus of
contact on the cone will change its major axis as the preload is adjusted. The poorly controlled
ball-to-race and thread-to-thread interfaces cause the bearing preload and clearances to loosen with
use, necessitating periodic preload adjustments.

The cup & cone bike wheel bearing has nothing in common with a Timken bearing except that you can
open both of them to have a look inside.

[me]:
> >It meets my criteria for total replaceability, standardization, and finer, more controlled
> >tolerances than those offered by loose ball assemblies.
>
> Well, I am glad you agree that separate pieces for the inner and out races and seals is a good
> idea. However that is not what you originally said.

I still haven't said that. If Timken bearings were geometrically configured so as to lend themselves
to one-piece construction, then using them as self-contained units would be better than installing
them as halves. If one race of a bearing is pitted, spalled, or otherwise damaged from use, then
there's no good reason to keep the other race.

> But bicycles present difference challenges that most applications and have some particular design
> issues that sometimes make specialized designs that use integrated bearing races desireable.

I just don't think this is true. For any cup & cone component of a bicycle, there is a cartridge
bearing version that is functionally superior and longer-lived.

> You seem to make some sweeping statements about machine designers and yet it is pretty clear to me
> that the Shimano engineers do a fine job and produce equipment that is reliable and at the same
> time compact and light weight.
...
> I think those guys know a bit about component design, a bit more than me or you to be sure.

What they know way more than me about is manufacturing cost reduction and price point marketing.

> Bottomline is that the bearing in Shimano front and rear hubs do work, bicycles are not industrial
> equipment nor do they have the weight associated with industrial equipment.

What, like aircraft and spacecraft? Airplanes use cartridge bearings for all the same reasons they
should be used on bicycles. I made a bottom bracket that uses aircraft torque tube bearings. The
bearings weigh maybe 15 or 20 grams but are rated for 3750 lbs. radial load, and 1700 lbs. thrust
load, each! Nothing about traditional bike equipment can even approach that ratio of load capacity
to weight.

Chalo Colina
 
"Robin Hubert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> "Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q1]
[q1]> news:[email protected]...[/q1]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message[/q2]
[q2]> > news:[email protected]...[/q2]
[q3]> > > wayne-<< These hubs would be for my and my[/q3]
[q3]> > > > wife's touring bikes[/q3]
[q3]> > >[/q3]
[q3]> > > DuraAce are lighter otherwise i think that Ultegra is a fine choice[/q3]
BUT
[q2]> > have[/q2]
[q3]> > > them taken apart, lots of grease added and adjusted when new...[/q3]
[q2]> >[/q2]
[q2]> > I don't understand. Why would you do this when they are new? Also,[/q2]
[q1]> aren't[/q1]
[q2]> > they sealed? So, I would imagine that they wouldn't require maintenance[/q2]
[q1]> for[/q1]
[q2]> > quite some time.[/q2]
[q1]>[/q1]
[q1]> They are sealed, fairly nicely in fact. What they are not is well-lubed[/q1]
and
[q1]> often not well-adjusted. It's often hit-and-miss, but not worth the[/q1]
gamble.
[q1]> Peter is doing it right.[/q1]

That is unbelievable that Shimano would be careless in lubing there ultegra hubs. Thanks for the
confirmation.

[q1]> Robin Hubert[/q1]
 
"Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote

> The main advantage of "industrial standard" bearings is that they're readily available to
> small manufacturers who don't have the tooling to produce cup and cone arrangements like
> Shimano and Campy.

And they have better race finish and tighter tolerances than cup & cone. And they have better
alignment than cup & cone. And they require no adjustment during their service life. And they can be
replaced in their entirety using simple tools. And they can be had in all-stainless construction.
And they can be bought at any bearing supply. And they will be available in 10 years, or 50.

> Other than that, I'd wager that the cup and cone bearings are superior -- able to handle axial
> loads, and thus properly preloadable, as well as being far more serviceable.

Cartridge bearings can be axially preloaded; they just have to be the right type-- deep groove or
angular contact. There are cartridge bearings in the size range of cup & cone wheel bearings that
can take more axial load by far than a bike wheel bearing can take radially. Here's one example; the
first one in the chart is about the size of a wheel bearing (but would accept a larger axle):

http://www.nationalprecision.com/bb11a.htm

As to the serviceability of cup & cone bearings, I can only call it a liability that they _require_
periodic adjustment. Cartridges require no attention during their lifespan. Then they can be
replaced in an operation simpler than setting the preload in a cup & cone system.

> The "smoothness" you feel when spinning a bearing by hand means practically nothing.

Agreed. But the finer finish and alignment of cartridge bearings makes them freer-running
under load too.

I can say with some degree of certainty that there is no technical advantage to cup & cone bearings
over sealed cartridge units for the bicycle wheel application, except for lower production cost.
Since Shimano and Campagnolo do not pass these cost savings to the consumer (some lesser branded
sealed bearing hubs are cheaper at the retail level), then as a cyclist this type of hub bearing
construction has no advantages at all, only shortcomings.

Chalo Colina
 
"Bluto" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Which hubs do you recommend? Excuse my memory but are you the one who prefers Phil Woods? If so,
> > are there any lighter hubs that are as good?
>
> White Industries hubs: 90g front, 265g rear. http://www.whiteind.com/lta-road-hubset.htm
>
> Not light enough?
>
> American Classic hubs: 68g front, 225g rear. http://amclassic.com/Road_Hubs.html
>
> Both these kinds of hubs are first quality items. IMO they a better value than Phil hubs.

Cool!!! Might just be what I've been looking for. And cheaper and lighter than Phil wood. I noticed
that though the American Classic is lighter than the White Industries hubs, that it is cheaper.
Unfortunately, I noticed that the front hub for the American Classic only goes as high as 32 spokes
when I would prefer 36 for touring. BTW, one bike store recommended American Classic hubs but
another store claimed that they were **** and suggested that the best hub of all is the Chris King.
Comments? Have you had personal experience with either the American Classic or the White? One more
thing, the bearins are sealed on these two hubs, but are the hubs themselves sealed as well?

>
> Chalo Colina
 
Bluto <[email protected]> wrote:
: "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote

:> The main advantage of "industrial standard" bearings is that they're readily available to
:> small manufacturers who don't have the tooling to produce cup and cone arrangements like
:> Shimano and Campy.

: And they have better race finish and tighter tolerances than cup & cone. And they have better
: alignment than cup & cone. And they require no adjustment during their service life. And they can
: be replaced in their entirety using simple tools. And they can be had in all-stainless
: construction. And they can be bought at any bearing supply. And they will be available in 10
: years, or 50.

I'm convinced! Now is it feasible to pop out the cups on a standard hub and press in an appropriate
sized industrial standard bearing? A front hub would be straight forward but I imagine a freehub
would present a few problems. An elegant engineering solution marketed as a kit could be a route to
riches, no?

Cheerz, Lynzz
 
"Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Cool!!! Might just be what I've been looking for. And cheaper and lighter than Phil wood. I
> noticed that though the American Classic is lighter than the White Industries hubs, that it is
> cheaper. Unfortunately, I noticed that the front hub for the American Classic only goes as high as
> 32 spokes when I would prefer 36 for touring. BTW, one bike store recommended American Classic
> hubs but another store claimed that they were **** and suggested that the best hub of all is the
> Chris King. Comments? Have you had personal experience with either the American Classic or the
> White? One more thing, the bearins are sealed on these two hubs, but are the hubs themselves
> sealed as well?

Wayne, you are really overthinking the hub thing. A few grams this way or that makes almost no
difference on any bike and absolutely none on a touring bike. There is essentially no performance
difference between hubs with regards to rolling resistance. For reliability, avoid the rarely seen
boutique brands, or anything really light.

My experience: Many miles on a White Industries rear hub, not one problem. Many miles on Shimano
hubs from cheapies to DuraAce, no problems with any, discounting periodic maintenance of the bearing
adjustment and lubrication (easy). Many miles and 17 years on SunTour cartridge bearing 6-speed
freewheel hubs; no maintenance and no problems.

Sure, it can be a delicious dilemma making the choices for your bike. But riding is the real fun.
Choose some hubs, shut off that computer and ride.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Cool!!! Might just be what I've been looking for. And cheaper and
lighter
> > than Phil wood. I noticed that though the American Classic is lighter
than
> > the White Industries hubs, that it is cheaper. Unfortunately, I noticed that the front hub for
> > the American Classic only goes as high as 32
spokes
> > when I would prefer 36 for touring. BTW, one bike store recommended American Classic hubs but
> > another store claimed that they were **** and suggested that the best hub of all is the Chris
> > King. Comments? Have
you
> > had personal experience with either the American Classic or the White?
One
> > more thing, the bearins are sealed on these two hubs, but are the hubs themselves sealed
> > as well?
>
>
> Wayne, you are really overthinking the hub thing. A few grams this way or that makes almost no
> difference on any bike and absolutely none on a touring bike. There is essentially no performance
> difference between hubs with regards to rolling resistance. For reliability, avoid the rarely seen
> boutique brands, or anything really light.
>
> My experience: Many miles on a White Industries rear hub, not one problem. Many miles on Shimano
> hubs from cheapies to DuraAce, no problems with any, discounting periodic maintenance of the
> bearing adjustment and lubrication (easy). Many miles and 17 years on SunTour cartridge bearing
> 6-speed freewheel hubs; no maintenance and no problems.

OK, weight not a significant consideration. However, lack of maintenace I like since I would rather
ride than fool with that. BTW, how often does the Shimano hubs require maintenance? Also, I always
found it a pain to adjust the cones in the past. Is it easier now? Since you say that White and Sun
Tour require no maintenace, I find that appealing. Have you used these for heavy touring?
>
> Sure, it can be a delicious dilemma making the choices for your bike. But riding is the real fun.
> Choose some hubs, shut off that computer and ride.

Temperature near freezing, wind blowing hard. Brrrrr. Not masochistic. Rather be sitting in front of
my computer. Besides, bike sitting over frame builder's place. However, do want to get this figured
out real soon so that I can get him working on it so that I get my bike back before weather gets
mild again.
>
> --
> Ted Bennett Portland OR
 
"Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

>
>>
> OK, weight not a significant consideration. However, lack of maintenace I like since I would
> rather ride than fool with that. BTW, how often does the Shimano hubs require maintenance?

I hate to confess this on .tech, (and I am admittedly not a Shimano fan), but the 7s 105 hubs on my
commute bike have endured 12 years without maintenance and are still running smoothly, and this is
in Vancouver where it occasionaly rains in winter.
 
A Muzi wrote:
> Their hubs, like almost all loose-ball systems, are delivered with just enough lubricant to
> prevent rust during shipping. If you intend to actually ride the things, open, grease and
> adjust first.

You do know that's getting perilously close to the "Use a new chain with the stuff it's shipped
with?" question, don't you?

(FWIW, my new chain is almost silent with that gunk. Where can I buy a bottle of it?)

Pat
--
Apologies to those easily confused. Address is spam-resistant. Correct email address like pdlamb
'round-about comcast point net.
 
"Mike Latondresse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Wayne T" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> >
> >>
> > OK, weight not a significant consideration. However, lack of maintenace I like since I would
> > rather ride than fool with that. BTW, how often does the Shimano hubs require maintenance?
>
> I hate to confess this on .tech, (and I am admittedly not a Shimano fan), but the 7s 105 hubs on
> my commute bike have endured 12 years without maintenance and are still running smoothly, and this
> is in Vancouver where it occasionaly rains in winter.

OK, that is good to hear. Perhaps going with Ultegras which are relatively cheap may just be the way
to go then. I can live with maintenance every 10 years or so.
 
Ted wrote, a little testily:

> > Wayne, you are really overthinking the hub thing. A few grams this way or that makes almost no
> > difference on any bike and absolutely none on a touring bike. There is essentially no
> > performance difference between hubs with regards to rolling resistance. For reliability, avoid
> > the rarely seen boutique brands, or anything really light.
> >
> > My experience: Many miles on a White Industries rear hub, not one problem. Many miles on Shimano
> > hubs from cheapies to DuraAce, no problems with any, discounting periodic maintenance of the
> > bearing adjustment and lubrication (easy). Many miles and 17 years on SunTour cartridge bearing
> > 6-speed freewheel hubs; no maintenance and no problems.

"Wayne T" replied:

> OK, weight not a significant consideration. However, lack of maintenace I like since I would
> rather ride than fool with that. BTW, how often does the Shimano hubs require maintenance? Also, I
> always found it a pain to adjust the cones in the past. Is it easier now? Since you say that White
> and Sun Tour require no maintenace, I find that appealing. Have you used these for heavy touring?

Ted:

Maintenance intervals vary a lot depending on usage. On my bikes that get much use in the rain,
twice a year I squirt some more grease on the balls and cones and readjust. Less often for hubs that
rarely get wet.

Here's a tip: an axle vise isn't costly, and makes the job a lot easier.

Yes, the White and Sun Tour often carry loads long distances. I'm pretty sure you can't get
the latter.

Ted:
> > Sure, it can be a delicious dilemma making the choices for your bike. But riding is the real
> > fun. Choose some hubs, shut off that computer and ride.

Wayne:
> Temperature near freezing, wind blowing hard. Brrrrr. Not masochistic. Rather be sitting in front
> of my computer. Besides, bike sitting over frame builder's place. However, do want to get this
> figured out real soon so that I can get him working on it so that I get my bike back before
> weather gets mild again.

Ted: Yeah, but what doesn't kill ya just makes ya stronger.
> > Portland OR
Probably not as cold here as where you are.

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR
 
"Mike Latondresse" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I hate to confess this on .tech, (and I am admittedly not a Shimano fan), but the 7s 105 hubs on
> my commute bike have endured 12 years without maintenance and are still running smoothly, and this
> is in Vancouver where it occasionaly rains in winter.

It's hard to argue with the value of Shimano hubs, 105/Ultegra, LX/XT, whatever, very cheap, very
durable, very available.
 
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