Evidence overwhelmingly indicates Greg LeMond Doped....

[slovakguy]

Originally Posted by danfoz .


The rumor I heard is that 10 hours a day on the bike was better than 10 hours a day in the mine or factory.

not to mention the lack of cheering fans at the mine entrance when you went in or came out.

 

[alienator]

not to mention the lack of cheering fans at the mine entrance when you went in or came out.

Occasionally there's cheering at a mine, but it usually only happens after people learn that some of the miners survived the collapse or explosion.

 

[mmkah]

[SIZE= medium]I don’t think you got my message. I don’t need to read USADA’s report, or listed to 20 witnesses. I believe that they ALL doped one time or another. So was 90 % of peloton. That was cycling culture then (and hope it is not anymore). Lance was made an example as being the most successful and everyone is hitting on him as being the only one. That part is not fair.[/SIZE]
[SIZE= medium]There are many other cycling stars of that area that doped (and some of them are still active today) that earn money in cycling and you don’t know what else is going on as this is not publicized. You only read about Lance….not much about these 20 witnesses and others. There is a little blurb here and there and that is it. All is written about American cyclists and not much about European stars who doped for many generations.[/SIZE]
[SIZE= medium]If you are or were cyclist you should know that you cannot, for example, climb Aprica, Montirolo, Passo the Stelvio and Passo the Gavia in one day (20 stage of Giro) eating cornflakes only.[/SIZE]
[SIZE= medium]As far as prize money is concerned it was earned beating all those other dopers (many found positive legally and proven) and was given mostly to those 20 witnesses (his teammates). So I wish them good luck to retrieve that money![/SIZE]

 

[vspa]

If you are or were  cyclist you should know that you cannot, for example, climb Aprica, Montirolo, Passo the Stelvio and Passo the Gavia in one day (20 stage of Giro) eating cornflakes only.

i can hardly believe what i was able to do 20 years ago, while not comparing to the pro ranks, its amazing what a well trained cyclist can do, on cornflakes...

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by mmkah .

[SIZE= medium]Lance was made an example as being the most successful and everyone is hitting on him as being the only one. That part is not fair.[/SIZE]

It's as fair as the DA going after the kingpin instead of the low level street dealer. What's the moral of the story? Don't aim too high, or don't start dealing in the first place?

 

[alienator]

[ Lance was made an example as being the most successful and everyone is hitting on him as being the only one. That part is not fair. There are many other cycling stars of that area that doped (and some of them are still active today) that earn money in cycling and you don’t know what else is going on as this is not publicized. You only read about Lance….not much about these 20 witnesses and others. There is a little blurb here and there and that is it. All is written about American cyclists and not much about European stars who doped for many generations.

That's not true at all. You're reading and hearing so much about Armstrong because:

1. He's the doper non plus ultra in the most recent doping scandal.
2. The Armstrong scandal revealed the largest and most complex doping operation ever to be discovered in cycling. It makes the Festina affair look amateurish.
3. Armstrong has been the target of suspicion for a very long time.
4. Armstrong's threats and intimidation (remember what he did to Simeoni in the TdF, something that was seen worldwide?) have taken doping to a new level.
5. The guy claimed to have won 7 TdF's clean, without actually ever saying "I don't dope." The fall of someone who stole 7 TdFs is going to be hugemongous news.

As for no talk about European pros who've been caught, that's not true either. Contador is just coming off of a doping suspension, as is Valverde. There is an ongoing investigation in Padua that has already involved big European names. Frank Schleck has gone down. Go back a year or two and the list gets bigger and bigger.

If you are or were  cyclist you should know that you cannot, for example, climb Aprica, Montirolo, Passo the Stelvio and Passo the Gavia in one day (20 stage of Giro) eating cornflakes only.

That's just a bad, misguided statement. First, obviously the pros eat very well in the mornings before stages, and they get a lot of calories handed to them and stuffed in their pockets. As for what you are implying, regular ol' punters do those climbs, and as has been seen in recent years, clean pros are doing those climbs. Doping isn't needed to finish a grand tour, no matter the tour in question.

As far as prize money is concerned it was earned beating all those other dopers (many found positive legally and proven) and was given mostly to those 20 witnesses (his teammates). So I wish them good luck to retrieve that money!

Now you're tossing out the real BS, the argument that since so many were doping, the races were done on an equal field. Bullsh!t. First there are many ex-pros who refused to dope and were forced to exit the peloton. We don't know how those people would have fared. Second, just because riders A, B, and C dope, doesn't mean that they are doping equally. It's an absolutely false claim that if everyone is doping, the field is level. Some riders have access to better and more product than others. Some riders have access to higher tech doping regimens than others. Some riders respond differently to doping products than others. So much for that level field ****. As for Armstrong's money, he's already getting sued by SCA for upwards of $7 million, and I'll bet SCA will get a lot of that back, especially as Armstrong perjured himself in the original case and because USADA just provided a fat, juicy "fψck you" to any future Armstrong legal defense. IMHO, this is all very good for the future of cycling. King Rat was exposed; the UCI has been squeezed into a laser like spotlight; and clean riders and the ride clean movement is gaining momentum.

 

[mmkah]

[SIZE= 10pt][COLOR= black]Answer to Alienator:[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE= 10pt][COLOR= black]Thank you for trying to analyzing my statement. My statement is my point of view, also viewed with many other readers. Your point of view is amateurish, one sided and you are siding with witch hunters (and that is OK. – your narrow point of view is understood). [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE= 10pt][COLOR= black]Cycling area since 1990 has to be taken in consideration including all stars of that time (I don’t want to name them now, list is too long). If you look at it with open ayes ,all titles and winnings should be taken away from all participants that doped (proven or not) in that area, not just Lance. [/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIZE= 10pt][COLOR= black]If you agree to make him example, well I can also understand that, but it is not fair to defame only one excellent athlete that “possibly” used (not proven) PED to which he responded to better than others, as per your “smart” statement! It is known that all top cycling teams had doping programs (including amateur teams too) and now we are hitting and punishing the most successful team only. And that is not fair. Cycling in last 20 years has been dope infested.....and before...we don’t know. Testing has not been very scientific then or no one talked about it much.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIZE= 10pt][COLOR= black]Maybe UCI turned the blind eye to it, due to financial reasons mention in one of the other person’s comments. [/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE= 10pt][COLOR= black]As far as my notes/examples about climbing those hills in Italy on “cornflakes”, are just examples. Did you climb them? I did! Demand on cycling pros is enormous, stages are long and hard. Yes, they are all well trained, but stages are very hard and demanding....and for 20 days. Diet is very important and I am sure they need many supplements (all kinds). And they all were taking them for over 20 years. ALL of THEM (or at least 90% of them).[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[SIZE= 10pt][COLOR= black]Now we are annulling only Lance’s successes. NOT FAIR! In broad opinion, ALL CYCLING results should be annulled in last 20 years of 90% participants (you pick them) and question the area before that. If we do that, where would that get us to?? Smart ass!![/COLOR][/SIZE]

 

[bicicleteiro]

Whether you're a Lance hater/fan or a Greg hater/fan or whatever combination of the two, there are a lot of good questions asked here, and a lot of good links (especially the vids). I entered the sport little by little as a kid and was fully hooked by the '84 Olympics and Tour. Born with eyes wide-open needless to say.

 

[vspa]

. Born with eyes wide-open needless to say.

what do you mean by that ?

 

[TheRealStory]

I'm curious; what are your thoughts now?

How sad that the idol you worshiped was so false, so utterly hollow that the only way he could climb to the top was by cheating. But even worse to retain his position on the top of a hill waiting to crash around him, Armstrong sunk to the lowest of levels. He used vicious innuendo and invectives to undermine those around him who knew his life -- not just his cycling career -- was a long, twisting, sordid lie. His bloated identity has been deflated not by accusations, but the simple truth -- the broadly accepted truth that he is a colossal fraud. Like all men whose lives are mounted on lies and more lies to cover up the previous lies, there are really no ruins about him. That would suggest he had something worth ruining. No instead, like Bernie Madoff, the ruins are other people's lives and he couldn't care less.

I hope it's a good lesson for you to learn that the truth is in the end never alterable. What we have done is done. You can cover it up, you can mask it, you can create distortions around it, you can hide it for long periods of time, but the truth will eventually surface for what it is. In the future, you would be best to seek it out before you levy such unsubstantiated charges.

You were on the wrong side of a small piece of history. But keep in mind, your malice was aimed at robbing a man of his honor, his life and his dignity. And for what? To shore up a man, mostly devoid of any substantive value or redeemable character.

Not sure how you answer for that one. A nice start would be an open apology to Greg Lemond.

 

[alienator]

I'm curious; what are your thoughts now?   How sad that the idol you worshiped was so false, so utterly hollow that the only way he could climb to the top was by cheating.  But even worse to retain his position on the top of a hill waiting to crash around him, Armstrong sunk to the lowest of levels.  He used vicious innuendo and invectives to undermine those around him who knew his life -- not just his cycling career -- was a long, twisting, sordid lie.  His bloated identity has been deflated not by accusations, but the simple truth -- the broadly accepted truth that he is a colossal fraud.  Like all men whose lives are mounted on lies and more lies to cover up the previous lies, there are really no ruins about him.  That would suggest he had something worth ruining.  No instead, like Bernie Madoff, the ruins are other people's lives and he couldn't care less.    I hope it's a good lesson for you to learn that the truth is in the end never alterable.  What we have done is done.  You can cover it up, you can mask it, you can create distortions around it, you can hide it for long periods of time, but the truth will eventually surface for what it is. In the future, you would be best to seek it out before you levy such unsubstantiated charges.    You were on the wrong side of a small piece of history.  But keep in mind, your malice was aimed at robbing a man of his honor, his life and his dignity.  And for what?  To shore up a man, mostly devoid of any substantive value or redeemable character.   Not sure how you answer for that one.  A nice start would be an open apology to Greg Lemond.

Who are you talking to?

 

[jpwkeeper]

Originally Posted by alienator .


Who are you talking to?

I was wondering the same thing. I guess the OP, although it doesn't quite fit.

 

[vspa]

in cyclingnews there is an article linking blood transfusions to the 80's, LeMond's era,

 

[alienator]

in cyclingnews there is an article linking blood transfusions to the 80's, LeMond's era,

The use of transfusions then does not mean everyone used them, just as the use of EPO from the '90's up to now doesn't mean everyone used it.

 

[swampy1970]

VSPA."An article" linking blood transfusions in cycling news? What about the storied history of organized doping in the 84 US Olympic cycling team? Moser blood doping to the hour record. There was a confession of sorts from Joop Zoetemelk that he used transfusions during the 70's and early 80's. Merckx is said to have refused one before his hour record. Lasse Viren confessed to using transfusions in the 1972 Olympics to win the 10,000m race on the track (running). Ironically given their current anti-doping stance now, CONI worked with Professor Conconni whose blood doping program probably made the US teams, and probably Lance's, look a little drab. Conconni would be tied with the Carerra team of Chiappucci via court documents and a returning Stephen Roche was embroiled in that court room saga, but did you ever wonder why no one, not a single rider than left Carrera earlier in the 80's ever went onto greater things? I can't recall one that even stayed at the same level. Roche, Viscentini, Schepers, Zimmerman, Bontempi, Maechler, just to name a few... There might be a few spelling faux-pas in that lot but you may remember the names. Rumor has it that Conconni was working with the team shortly after starting work with CONI... Rumor indeed but with that many riders over a decade it looks a little "odd".

I was in a highly anemic state at one point in the 90's due to an acute Crohn's attack. I was literally crapping blood. Walking up a set of stairs got me winded and light headed. I was put on a cycle of prednisone, asulfadine, and iron. No B12. Three weeks later I had recovered sufficiently to race again at my level. I didn't do great, I didn't get dropped either. Two weeks after that I placed 2nd in my local park's weekly race.  I don't know enough about Greg's condition to make any qualified statements about his type of anemia. What I do know is that he has the highest recorded VO2Max of any cyclist, ever. Greg is a genetic wonder, it's a scientific fact. And it's a surprise that someone with aerobars and aero helmet made time on someone without? It's a surprise that the rider with highest recorded VO2Max ever, and a substantial aero advantage equipment-wise gained time in a TT?  Gimme a break. He may have cheated, but no overwhelming evidence of that is presented here.  

You're preaching to the choir about LeMond's ability and his mammoth VO2. I was a big LeMond's fan back in the day - had my custom frame painted red and white, wore the Brancale shoes and even donned the Oakleys Despite that it didn't stop from wondering WTF when LeMond suddenly resurrected his Giro in a single week mid Giro. Watching him suffer on satellite TV, like a pig on a spit for the first couple weeks and the boom, podium in the TT. You're talking weeks worth of recovery in your case - in LeMond's case it was a couple of days during a particularly hard Giro. You go from being shelled out the back to getting on the podium at the TT at the end and a TT that had no special aero equipment save a skin suit and aero lid. A slight difference. Given all the evidence from published data over the past decade, even a healthy rider suffers a declining HcT levels, how does "a couple" of B12 injections cure anemia mid grand tour? Set aside any assumption that I may be insinuating something else, how does a couple of B12 injections during a 3 week Grand Tour allow you to recover from anemia and compete with the worlds best? Even EPO isn't supposed to work in just a couple of days... Amgen claim 2 to 6 weeks for Epogen to really work it's magic. B12? That LeMond took a chunk of time out of Fignon wasn't a huge surprise looking back at things and not for the usually accepted reasons. Fignon apparently had a sizeable saddle sore about the size of a piece of pepperoni. Think about that the next time you have a pizza IMHO, LeMond's greatest TT performance in the 89 Tour wasn't the final TT - it was the first long one that was almost 45 miles, IIRC. In the last 10km he took over three quarters of a minute out of Delgado who had posted the fastest time at that point. 45 seconds in 10km... and got off the bike looking like he'd just got done with a warm up. Impressive...

 

[vspa]

That LeMond took a chunk of time out of Fignon wasn't a huge surprise looking back at things and not for the usually accepted reasons. Fignon apparently had a sizeable saddle sore about the size of a piece of pepperoni. Think about that the next time you have a pizza IMHO, LeMond's greatest TT performance in the 89 Tour wasn't the final TT - it was the first long one that was almost 45 miles, IIRC. In the last 10km he took over three quarters of a minute out of Delgado who had posted the fastest time at that point. 45 seconds in 10km... and got off the bike looking like he'd just got done with a warm up. Impressive...

It is important to look at all the TT's in the 89 tour, Fignon estimated Lemond's total advantage of 1:30 to 2:00 minutes because of the aero handlebars. They were in fact out of UCI's rule at the time because they gave the rider one more point of support. For some reason Fignon and Gimard didn't file a formal protest during the race.

 

[Spectacleur]

Can we expect new evidence in "21 counts ?"
http://www.alternativeditions.com/21-counts/21-profiles/

 

[Veronique Velo]

Originally Posted by truthbetold1 .

I just came across this post when researching LeMond - YOU MAY APOLOGIZE NOW! LeMond is no PR pro but he was a Americans greatest cyclist!

This - ALL DAY! It's comical how many of the Texan's fans want to bring down America's greatest ever cyclist just because their hero turned out to have defrauded them. Don't tar everyone with the same brush.

 

[vspa]

im more worried about amateur racing and racing outside europe or outside big time events, because testing is expensive and requires infrastructure, for riders in those races getting away with doping would be and in fact already is easier,

 

[parkansas]

NOT FAIR? Which part? The fact that a lying, manipulative self confessed cheater enriched himself to the tune of 218 million dollars (US government estimate) simply by threatening his teammates, employees, and supposed friends? Forced his teammates to take the same drugs that may have given him cancer? Please enlighten us. Me thinks your bromance with Lance is showing under your skirt.......