Extremely high cadence

[Raptor]

Way back when, I read that Olympic sprinters trained at really high cadences, like 200+rpm, besides
squatting 300lbs and the like. Not thinking I had anything better to do at the time, I started
incorporating this (the spinning like mad) into my training.

I can still spin the pedals extremely fast. It's an anaerobic activity, but 130-140rpm isn't for me,
possibly as a result. (I do have to support my upper body with my core muscles to avoid bouncing.)
My natural, comfortable cadence is still in the 95-110 range depending on load.

(I did google this so it doesn't look like a faq.) All the web sources I saw considered 130-140 to
be "high cadence." What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is it a waste
of time, or even counter-productive, or does it help some aspect of my riding/racing?

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Raptor <[email protected]> wrote:

> Way back when, I read that Olympic sprinters trained at really high cadences, like 200+rpm,
> besides squatting 300lbs and the like. Not thinking I had anything better to do at the time, I
> started incorporating this (the spinning like mad) into my training.
>
> I can still spin the pedals extremely fast. It's an anaerobic activity, but 130-140rpm isn't for
> me, possibly as a result. (I do have to support my upper body with my core muscles to avoid
> bouncing.) My natural, comfortable cadence is still in the 95-110 range depending on load.
>
> (I did google this so it doesn't look like a faq.) All the web sources I saw considered 130-140 to
> be "high cadence." What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is it a waste
> of time, or even counter-productive, or does it help some aspect of my riding/racing?

FWIW, most amateur track sprinters will be going at 140-150 rpm's during their sprint. This may not
be the most efficient cadence, but the fastest cadence is a function of the gearing chosen that can
be accelerated efficiently from ~20mph to 38+mph. On the road the highest cadence you're likely to
see is closer to 120-125. Gearing can be chosen for efficiency at any cadence. Unless you'll be
racing on the track you're probably good to do some spinouts up to about 125 rpm on slight downhills
or in a small gear so you'll learn to relax and be even more efficient when you're at the more
desirable 90-110 rpms. Being able to close gaps or accelerate by simply increasing your cadence from
~90 to ~110 is useful in races.

-WG

 

[Ronaldo Jeremia]

Raptor <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Way back when, I read that Olympic sprinters trained at really high cadences, like 200+rpm,
> besides squatting 300lbs and the like. Not thinking I had anything better to do at the time, I
> started incorporating this (the spinning like mad) into my training.
>
> I can still spin the pedals extremely fast. It's an anaerobic activity, but 130-140rpm isn't for
> me, possibly as a result. (I do have to support my upper body with my core muscles to avoid
> bouncing.) My natural, comfortable cadence is still in the 95-110 range depending on load.
>
> (I did google this so it doesn't look like a faq.) All the web sources I saw considered 130-140 to
> be "high cadence." What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is it a waste
> of time, or even counter-productive, or does it help some aspect of my riding/racing?
>
> --

I think the value of expanding one's upper cadence range is often underestimated. While one may
choose never to use the freakish high end of spinning in a race situation, using such efforts in
training likely facilitates more effective pedalling in the normal and slightly higher than
normal range.

I'm sure this assertion will drive someone nuts, and maybe prompt someone to ask me for a citation.
Don't bother, I don't have the time. It's just my opinion based on experience, not a scientific
conclusion.

FWIW, I can spin very fast. I can hit 220 rpm on my rollers.

-RJ

 

[Andy Coggan]

"Ronaldo Jeremiah" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I think the value of expanding one's upper cadence range is often underestimated. While one may
> choose never to use the freakish high end of spinning in a race situation, using such efforts in
> training likely facilitates more effective pedalling in the normal and slightly higher than
> normal range.
>
> I'm sure this assertion will drive someone nuts, and maybe prompt someone to ask me for a
> citation. Don't bother, I don't have the time. It's just my opinion based on experience, not a
> scientific conclusion.
>
> FWIW, I can spin very fast. I can hit 220 rpm on my rollers.

Now that's convincing: anecdotal evidence from an anonymous poster.

Andy Coggan

 

[Raptor]

Andy Coggan wrote:
> "Ronaldo Jeremiah" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>I think the value of expanding one's upper cadence range is often underestimated. While one may
>>choose never to use the freakish high end of spinning in a race situation, using such efforts in
>>training likely facilitates more effective pedalling in the normal and slightly higher than
>>normal range.
>>
>>I'm sure this assertion will drive someone nuts, and maybe prompt someone to ask me for a
>>citation. Don't bother, I don't have the time. It's just my opinion based on experience, not a
>>scientific conclusion.
>>
>>FWIW, I can spin very fast. I can hit 220 rpm on my rollers.
>
>
> Now that's convincing: anecdotal evidence from an anonymous poster.
>
> Andy Coggan

Well Andy, it does match my experience as well. I do seem to be more comfortable at higher cadences
as a result of spinning at very high cadences. I guess the real-world benefit of this is I have a
little more versatility in a breakaway or answering a break, or in a sprint. I can respond in the
same gear, more "snap" in my legs.

But I bow to your superior experience and knowledge. Are you aware of any real data that says
I'm/we're risking injury and/or not helping ourselves? If you can point me to a source I'd kiss your
ass while bowing.

--
--
Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

 

[Xzzy]

practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin, and it also allowed me to produce good
power across a much wider range of rpms

John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

"Raptor" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Andy Coggan wrote:
> > "Ronaldo Jeremiah" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> >>I think the value of expanding one's upper cadence range is often underestimated. While one may
> >>choose never to use the freakish high end of spinning in a race situation, using such efforts in
> >>training likely facilitates more effective pedalling in the normal and slightly higher than
> >>normal range.
> >>
> >>I'm sure this assertion will drive someone nuts, and maybe prompt someone to ask me for a
> >>citation. Don't bother, I don't have the time. It's just my opinion based on experience, not a
> >>scientific conclusion.
> >>
> >>FWIW, I can spin very fast. I can hit 220 rpm on my rollers.
> >
> >
> > Now that's convincing: anecdotal evidence from an anonymous poster.
> >
> > Andy Coggan
>
> Well Andy, it does match my experience as well. I do seem to be more comfortable at higher
> cadences as a result of spinning at very high cadences. I guess the real-world benefit of this is
> I have a little more versatility in a breakaway or answering a break, or in a sprint. I can
> respond in the same gear, more "snap" in my legs.
>
> But I bow to your superior experience and knowledge. Are you aware of any real data that says
> I'm/we're risking injury and/or not helping ourselves? If you can point me to a source I'd kiss
> your ass while bowing.
>
> --
> --
> Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
> could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP
> in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

 

[Andy Coggan]

John Bickmore wrote:

> practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,

That's been my experience as well.

> and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms

This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but low power doesn't seem to do
anything for my ability to generate high power at a high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once
said the exact same thing.) Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason
to expect that it would.

Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan

 

[Xzzy]

You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across a
wider range of rpms.

John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> John Bickmore wrote:
>
> > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
>
> That's been my experience as well.
>
> > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
>
> This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but
low
> power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high power at
a
> high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
thing.)
> Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason to expect that it would.
>
> Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:

> You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across a
> wider range of rpms.

You missed Andy's point. Where is it proven that riding at very high RPM's (say, 140+) allows a
person to apply power more efficiently at 90 rpm's or 100 rpm's or 110 rpm's?

-WG

> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > John Bickmore wrote:
> >
> > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
> >
> > That's been my experience as well.
> >
> > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
> >
> > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but
> low
> > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high power at
> a
> > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
> thing.)
> > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason to expect that it would.
> >
> > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
> >

 

[Andy Coggan]

How is applying "good power across a wider range of rpms" any different than being able to generate
higher power at a high cadence? In either case, it requires an increase in power at cadences above
where it normally peaks.

Andy Coggan

"xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across a
> wider range of rpms.
>
> John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
>
> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > John Bickmore wrote:
> >
> > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
> >
> > That's been my experience as well.
> >
> > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
> >
> > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but
> low
> > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high power
at
> a
> > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
> thing.)
> > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason
to
> > expect that it would.
> >
> > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
> >
> >

 

[Xzzy]

Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do they?

John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031535171714%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across
> > a wider range of rpms.
>
> You missed Andy's point. Where is it proven that riding at very high RPM's (say, 140+) allows a
> person to apply power more efficiently at 90 rpm's or 100 rpm's or 110 rpm's?
>
> -WG
>
>
> > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > John Bickmore wrote:
> > >
> > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
> > >
> > > That's been my experience as well.
> > >
> > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
> > >
> > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence
but
> > low
> > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high
power at
> > a
> > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
> > thing.)
> > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason
to
> > > expect that it would.
> > >
> > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
> > >
>

 

[Andy Coggan]

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031535171714%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across
> > a wider range of rpms.
>
> You missed Andy's point. Where is it proven that riding at very high RPM's (say, 140+) allows a
> person to apply power more efficiently at 90 rpm's or 100 rpm's or 110 rpm's?

Actually, that wasn't *exactly* my point. That is, I do believe that pedaling at very, very high
cadences can help you develop the neuromuscular coordination necessary to produce power at very
high cadences (the match sprinter example you used previously). However, I don't think it does
much if anything for your ability to produce power (not produce power efficiently) at more
reasonable cadences.

Okay, maybe I'm splitting hairs here...

Andy Coggan

 

[Xzzy]

above, you stated:

A. Coggan: This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but low power doesn't
seem to do anything for my ability to generate high power at a high cadence. (I believe that
Shaun Wallace once said the exact same thing.) Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is
little if any reason to expect that it would.

that is very different than what you just said: How is applying "good power across a wider range of
rpms" any different than being able to generate higher power at a high cadence? In either case, it
requires an increase in power at cadences above where it normally peaks.

++ I have and am stating: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across
a wider range of rpms.

and you disagree????

John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How is applying "good power across a wider range of rpms" any different
than
> being able to generate higher power at a high cadence? In either case, it requires an increase in
> power at cadences above where it normally peaks.
>
> Andy Coggan
>
> "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
> > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across
> > a wider range of rpms.
> >
> > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
> >
> > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > John Bickmore wrote:
> > >
> > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
> > >
> > > That's been my experience as well.
> > >
> > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
> > >
> > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence
but
> > low
> > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high
power
> at
> > a
> > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
> > thing.)
> > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason
> to
> > > expect that it would.
> > >
> > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

 

[Dave]

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How is applying "good power across a wider range of rpms" any different than being able to
> generate higher power at a high cadence? In either case, it requires an increase in power at
> cadences above where it normally peaks.
>
> Andy Coggan
>
> "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
> > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across
> > a wider range of rpms.
> >
> > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
> >
> > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > John Bickmore wrote:
> > >
> > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
> > >
> > > That's been my experience as well.
> > >
> > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
> > >
> > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but
> > low
> > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high power
> at
> > a
> > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
> > thing.)
> > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason
> to
> > > expect that it would.
> > >
> > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan

I have to agree with Andy and Shaun Wallace, just spinning in a low gear doesn't do anything for
your power output in an actual race gear. It does help your "turnover" (sprint snap, jumping etc.)
My experience with my coach is that high speed, high cadence, motorpacing in a race gear or
overgearing is what takes care of being able to "spin" a big gear. Dave

 

[Andy Coggan]

Only once a day to train.

Andy Coggan

"xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:m9Oda.163278$qi4.74259@rwcrnsc54...
> Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do they?
>
> John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
>
> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031535171714%[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, xzzy <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person
to
> > > apply good power across a wider range of rpms.
> >
> > You missed Andy's point. Where is it proven that riding at very high RPM's (say, 140+) allows a
> > person to apply power more efficiently at 90 rpm's or 100 rpm's or 110 rpm's?
> >
> > -WG
> >
> >
> > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > John Bickmore wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
> > > >
> > > > That's been my experience as well.
> > > >
> > > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
> > > >
> > > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence
> but
> > > low
> > > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high
> power at
> > > a
> > > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
> > > thing.)
> > > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any
reason
> to
> > > > expect that it would.
> > > >
> > > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
> > > >
> > > >

 

[Warren]

In article <m9Oda.163278$qi4.74259@rwcrnsc54>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:

> Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do they?

Long enough to become District Sprint Champion 3 times.

I'm familiar with training at 140+ rpm's and what it can and can't do for me.

-WG

 

[Xzzy]

ugh, wake up!

Think about what I am saying: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power
across a wider range of rpms.

Restated, I am saying that improvements in pedaling technique enables a person to apply their
horsepower to a wider range of rpms.

John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > How is applying "good power across a wider range of rpms" any different
than
> > being able to generate higher power at a high cadence? In either case,
it
> > requires an increase in power at cadences above where it normally peaks.
> >
> > Andy Coggan
> >
> > "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news[email protected]...
> > > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person
to
> > > apply good power across a wider range of rpms.
> > >
> > > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
> > >
> > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > John Bickmore wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
> > > >
> > > > That's been my experience as well.
> > > >
> > > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
> > > >
> > > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence
but
> > > low
> > > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high
power
> > at
> > > a
> > > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
> > > thing.)
> > > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any
reason
> > to
> > > > expect that it would.
> > > >
> > > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
>
>
> I have to agree with Andy and Shaun Wallace, just spinning in a low gear
doesn't do anything for
> your power output in an actual race gear. It does help your "turnover"
(sprint snap, jumping etc.)
> My experience with my coach is that high speed, high cadence, motorpacing
in a race gear or
> overgearing is what takes care of being able to "spin" a big gear. Dave

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031619236128%[email protected]...
> In article <m9Oda.163278$qi4.74259@rwcrnsc54>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do they?
>
> Long enough to become District Sprint Champion 3 times.

damn! that must mean you are an expert.

> I'm familiar with training at 140+ rpm's and what it can and can't do for me.

can't cut off the lard can it?

 

[Dave]

"xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:WPOda.162144$S_4.87549@rwcrnsc53...
> ugh, wake up!
>
> Think about what I am saying: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power
> across a wider range of rpms.
>
> Restated, I am saying that improvements in pedaling technique enables a person to apply their
> horsepower to a wider range of rpms.
>
> John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

No... you said, and I quote " practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin" That is ALL
high cadence will do for you. Having good power output allows you to apply good power across a wider
range of rpms. Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do with power output in any range

Dave

 

[Xzzy]

Dave,

You have slurred what I said, with your statement. Going forward, if you quote me, then please
separate your beliefs from my statements.

Your statement: "Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do with power output in any range".

is your statement of what you believe, but the point of this thread is ( view the original post ):
"What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is it a waste of time, or even
counter-productive, or does it help some aspect of my riding/racing?"

In other words, does high cadence workouts improve riding/racing?

Using different words, what I am saying is: Improved pedaling technique translates into improved
ability to deliver horsepower. Further, it has been my experience that efficiencies gained from
improved pedaling technique = more power output.

If you disagree with what I am saying, then I feel you spend too much time in a lab.

John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:WPOda.162144$S_4.87549@rwcrnsc53...
> > ugh, wake up!
> >
> > Think about what I am saying: Working on pedaling technique enables a
person
> > to apply good power across a wider range of rpms.
> >
> > Restated, I am saying that improvements in pedaling technique enables a person to apply their
> > horsepower to a wider range of rpms.
> >
> > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
>
>
> No... you said, and I quote " practicing very high rpms helped me to have
a smooth spin" That is
> ALL high cadence will do for you. Having good power output allows you to
apply good power across a
> wider range of rpms. Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do
with power output in any
> range
>
> Dave