Extremely high cadence

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Raptor, Mar 17, 2003.

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  1. Raptor

    Raptor Guest

    Way back when, I read that Olympic sprinters trained at really high cadences, like 200+rpm, besides
    squatting 300lbs and the like. Not thinking I had anything better to do at the time, I started
    incorporating this (the spinning like mad) into my training.

    I can still spin the pedals extremely fast. It's an anaerobic activity, but 130-140rpm isn't for me,
    possibly as a result. (I do have to support my upper body with my core muscles to avoid bouncing.)
    My natural, comfortable cadence is still in the 95-110 range depending on load.

    (I did google this so it doesn't look like a faq.) All the web sources I saw considered 130-140 to
    be "high cadence." What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is it a waste
    of time, or even counter-productive, or does it help some aspect of my riding/racing?

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
    could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
    charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
     
    Tags:


  2. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Raptor <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Way back when, I read that Olympic sprinters trained at really high cadences, like 200+rpm,
    > besides squatting 300lbs and the like. Not thinking I had anything better to do at the time, I
    > started incorporating this (the spinning like mad) into my training.
    >
    > I can still spin the pedals extremely fast. It's an anaerobic activity, but 130-140rpm isn't for
    > me, possibly as a result. (I do have to support my upper body with my core muscles to avoid
    > bouncing.) My natural, comfortable cadence is still in the 95-110 range depending on load.
    >
    > (I did google this so it doesn't look like a faq.) All the web sources I saw considered 130-140 to
    > be "high cadence." What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is it a waste
    > of time, or even counter-productive, or does it help some aspect of my riding/racing?

    FWIW, most amateur track sprinters will be going at 140-150 rpm's during their sprint. This may not
    be the most efficient cadence, but the fastest cadence is a function of the gearing chosen that can
    be accelerated efficiently from ~20mph to 38+mph. On the road the highest cadence you're likely to
    see is closer to 120-125. Gearing can be chosen for efficiency at any cadence. Unless you'll be
    racing on the track you're probably good to do some spinouts up to about 125 rpm on slight downhills
    or in a small gear so you'll learn to relax and be even more efficient when you're at the more
    desirable 90-110 rpms. Being able to close gaps or accelerate by simply increasing your cadence from
    ~90 to ~110 is useful in races.

    -WG
     
  3. Raptor <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Way back when, I read that Olympic sprinters trained at really high cadences, like 200+rpm,
    > besides squatting 300lbs and the like. Not thinking I had anything better to do at the time, I
    > started incorporating this (the spinning like mad) into my training.
    >
    > I can still spin the pedals extremely fast. It's an anaerobic activity, but 130-140rpm isn't for
    > me, possibly as a result. (I do have to support my upper body with my core muscles to avoid
    > bouncing.) My natural, comfortable cadence is still in the 95-110 range depending on load.
    >
    > (I did google this so it doesn't look like a faq.) All the web sources I saw considered 130-140 to
    > be "high cadence." What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is it a waste
    > of time, or even counter-productive, or does it help some aspect of my riding/racing?
    >
    > --

    I think the value of expanding one's upper cadence range is often underestimated. While one may
    choose never to use the freakish high end of spinning in a race situation, using such efforts in
    training likely facilitates more effective pedalling in the normal and slightly higher than
    normal range.

    I'm sure this assertion will drive someone nuts, and maybe prompt someone to ask me for a citation.
    Don't bother, I don't have the time. It's just my opinion based on experience, not a scientific
    conclusion.

    FWIW, I can spin very fast. I can hit 220 rpm on my rollers.

    -RJ
     
  4. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "Ronaldo Jeremiah" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > I think the value of expanding one's upper cadence range is often underestimated. While one may
    > choose never to use the freakish high end of spinning in a race situation, using such efforts in
    > training likely facilitates more effective pedalling in the normal and slightly higher than
    > normal range.
    >
    > I'm sure this assertion will drive someone nuts, and maybe prompt someone to ask me for a
    > citation. Don't bother, I don't have the time. It's just my opinion based on experience, not a
    > scientific conclusion.
    >
    > FWIW, I can spin very fast. I can hit 220 rpm on my rollers.

    Now that's convincing: anecdotal evidence from an anonymous poster.

    Andy Coggan
     
  5. Raptor

    Raptor Guest

    Andy Coggan wrote:
    > "Ronaldo Jeremiah" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    >>I think the value of expanding one's upper cadence range is often underestimated. While one may
    >>choose never to use the freakish high end of spinning in a race situation, using such efforts in
    >>training likely facilitates more effective pedalling in the normal and slightly higher than
    >>normal range.
    >>
    >>I'm sure this assertion will drive someone nuts, and maybe prompt someone to ask me for a
    >>citation. Don't bother, I don't have the time. It's just my opinion based on experience, not a
    >>scientific conclusion.
    >>
    >>FWIW, I can spin very fast. I can hit 220 rpm on my rollers.
    >
    >
    > Now that's convincing: anecdotal evidence from an anonymous poster.
    >
    > Andy Coggan

    Well Andy, it does match my experience as well. I do seem to be more comfortable at higher cadences
    as a result of spinning at very high cadences. I guess the real-world benefit of this is I have a
    little more versatility in a breakaway or answering a break, or in a sprint. I can respond in the
    same gear, more "snap" in my legs.

    But I bow to your superior experience and knowledge. Are you aware of any real data that says
    I'm/we're risking injury and/or not helping ourselves? If you can point me to a source I'd kiss your
    ass while bowing. :)

    --
    --
    Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
    could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
    charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
     
  6. Xzzy

    Xzzy Guest

    practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin, and it also allowed me to produce good
    power across a much wider range of rpms

    John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

    "Raptor" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Andy Coggan wrote:
    > > "Ronaldo Jeremiah" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > >>I think the value of expanding one's upper cadence range is often underestimated. While one may
    > >>choose never to use the freakish high end of spinning in a race situation, using such efforts in
    > >>training likely facilitates more effective pedalling in the normal and slightly higher than
    > >>normal range.
    > >>
    > >>I'm sure this assertion will drive someone nuts, and maybe prompt someone to ask me for a
    > >>citation. Don't bother, I don't have the time. It's just my opinion based on experience, not a
    > >>scientific conclusion.
    > >>
    > >>FWIW, I can spin very fast. I can hit 220 rpm on my rollers.
    > >
    > >
    > > Now that's convincing: anecdotal evidence from an anonymous poster.
    > >
    > > Andy Coggan
    >
    > Well Andy, it does match my experience as well. I do seem to be more comfortable at higher
    > cadences as a result of spinning at very high cadences. I guess the real-world benefit of this is
    > I have a little more versatility in a breakaway or answering a break, or in a sprint. I can
    > respond in the same gear, more "snap" in my legs.
    >
    > But I bow to your superior experience and knowledge. Are you aware of any real data that says
    > I'm/we're risking injury and/or not helping ourselves? If you can point me to a source I'd kiss
    > your ass while bowing. :)
    >
    > --
    > --
    > Lynn Wallace http://www.xmission.com/~lawall "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
    > could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP
    > in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.
     
  7. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    John Bickmore wrote:

    > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,

    That's been my experience as well.

    > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms

    This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but low power doesn't seem to do
    anything for my ability to generate high power at a high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once
    said the exact same thing.) Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason
    to expect that it would.

    Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
     
  8. Xzzy

    Xzzy Guest

    You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across a
    wider range of rpms.

    John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > John Bickmore wrote:
    >
    > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
    >
    > That's been my experience as well.
    >
    > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
    >
    > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but
    low
    > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high power at
    a
    > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
    thing.)
    > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason to expect that it would.
    >
    > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
     
  9. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:

    > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across a
    > wider range of rpms.

    You missed Andy's point. Where is it proven that riding at very high RPM's (say, 140+) allows a
    person to apply power more efficiently at 90 rpm's or 100 rpm's or 110 rpm's?

    -WG

    > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > John Bickmore wrote:
    > >
    > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
    > >
    > > That's been my experience as well.
    > >
    > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
    > >
    > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but
    > low
    > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high power at
    > a
    > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
    > thing.)
    > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason to expect that it would.
    > >
    > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
    > >
     
  10. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    How is applying "good power across a wider range of rpms" any different than being able to generate
    higher power at a high cadence? In either case, it requires an increase in power at cadences above
    where it normally peaks.

    Andy Coggan

    "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:D[email protected]...
    > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across a
    > wider range of rpms.
    >
    > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
    >
    > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > John Bickmore wrote:
    > >
    > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
    > >
    > > That's been my experience as well.
    > >
    > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
    > >
    > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but
    > low
    > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high power
    at
    > a
    > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
    > thing.)
    > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason
    to
    > > expect that it would.
    > >
    > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
    > >
    > >
     
  11. Xzzy

    Xzzy Guest

    Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do they?

    John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031535171714%[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across
    > > a wider range of rpms.
    >
    > You missed Andy's point. Where is it proven that riding at very high RPM's (say, 140+) allows a
    > person to apply power more efficiently at 90 rpm's or 100 rpm's or 110 rpm's?
    >
    > -WG
    >
    >
    > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > John Bickmore wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
    > > >
    > > > That's been my experience as well.
    > > >
    > > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
    > > >
    > > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence
    but
    > > low
    > > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high
    power at
    > > a
    > > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
    > > thing.)
    > > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason
    to
    > > > expect that it would.
    > > >
    > > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
    > > >
    >
     
  12. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031535171714%[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across
    > > a wider range of rpms.
    >
    > You missed Andy's point. Where is it proven that riding at very high RPM's (say, 140+) allows a
    > person to apply power more efficiently at 90 rpm's or 100 rpm's or 110 rpm's?

    Actually, that wasn't *exactly* my point. That is, I do believe that pedaling at very, very high
    cadences can help you develop the neuromuscular coordination necessary to produce power at very
    high cadences (the match sprinter example you used previously). However, I don't think it does
    much if anything for your ability to produce power (not produce power efficiently) at more
    reasonable cadences.

    Okay, maybe I'm splitting hairs here...

    Andy Coggan
     
  13. Xzzy

    Xzzy Guest

    above, you stated:

    A. Coggan: This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but low power doesn't
    seem to do anything for my ability to generate high power at a high cadence. (I believe that
    Shaun Wallace once said the exact same thing.) Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is
    little if any reason to expect that it would.

    that is very different than what you just said: How is applying "good power across a wider range of
    rpms" any different than being able to generate higher power at a high cadence? In either case, it
    requires an increase in power at cadences above where it normally peaks.

    ++ I have and am stating: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across
    a wider range of rpms.

    and you disagree????

    John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > How is applying "good power across a wider range of rpms" any different
    than
    > being able to generate higher power at a high cadence? In either case, it requires an increase in
    > power at cadences above where it normally peaks.
    >
    > Andy Coggan
    >
    > "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:D[email protected]...
    > > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across
    > > a wider range of rpms.
    > >
    > > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
    > >
    > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > John Bickmore wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
    > > >
    > > > That's been my experience as well.
    > > >
    > > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
    > > >
    > > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence
    but
    > > low
    > > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high
    power
    > at
    > > a
    > > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
    > > thing.)
    > > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason
    > to
    > > > expect that it would.
    > > >
    > > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    > >
    >
     
  14. Dave

    Dave Guest

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > How is applying "good power across a wider range of rpms" any different than being able to
    > generate higher power at a high cadence? In either case, it requires an increase in power at
    > cadences above where it normally peaks.
    >
    > Andy Coggan
    >
    > "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:D[email protected]...
    > > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power across
    > > a wider range of rpms.
    > >
    > > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
    > >
    > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > John Bickmore wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
    > > >
    > > > That's been my experience as well.
    > > >
    > > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
    > > >
    > > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence but
    > > low
    > > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high power
    > at
    > > a
    > > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
    > > thing.)
    > > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any reason
    > to
    > > > expect that it would.
    > > >
    > > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan

    I have to agree with Andy and Shaun Wallace, just spinning in a low gear doesn't do anything for
    your power output in an actual race gear. It does help your "turnover" (sprint snap, jumping etc.)
    My experience with my coach is that high speed, high cadence, motorpacing in a race gear or
    overgearing is what takes care of being able to "spin" a big gear. Dave
     
  15. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    Only once a day to train.

    Andy Coggan

    "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do they?
    >
    > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
    >
    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:180320031535171714%[email protected]...
    > > In article <[email protected]>, xzzy <[email protected]>
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person
    to
    > > > apply good power across a wider range of rpms.
    > >
    > > You missed Andy's point. Where is it proven that riding at very high RPM's (say, 140+) allows a
    > > person to apply power more efficiently at 90 rpm's or 100 rpm's or 110 rpm's?
    > >
    > > -WG
    > >
    > >
    > > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > > John Bickmore wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
    > > > >
    > > > > That's been my experience as well.
    > > > >
    > > > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
    > > > >
    > > > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence
    > but
    > > > low
    > > > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high
    > power at
    > > > a
    > > > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
    > > > thing.)
    > > > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any
    reason
    > to
    > > > > expect that it would.
    > > > >
    > > > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
    > > > >
    > > > >
     
  16. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, xzzy <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Sorry, now I understand, both of you are in a lab. They don't let you out very often, do they?

    Long enough to become District Sprint Champion 3 times.

    I'm familiar with training at 140+ rpm's and what it can and can't do for me.

    -WG
     
  17. Xzzy

    Xzzy Guest

    ugh, wake up!

    Think about what I am saying: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power
    across a wider range of rpms.

    Restated, I am saying that improvements in pedaling technique enables a person to apply their
    horsepower to a wider range of rpms.

    John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

    "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > How is applying "good power across a wider range of rpms" any different
    than
    > > being able to generate higher power at a high cadence? In either case,
    it
    > > requires an increase in power at cadences above where it normally peaks.
    > >
    > > Andy Coggan
    > >
    > > "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:D[email protected]...
    > > > You missed the point: Working on pedaling technique enables a person
    to
    > > > apply good power across a wider range of rpms.
    > > >
    > > > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
    > > >
    > > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > > John Bickmore wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin,
    > > > >
    > > > > That's been my experience as well.
    > > > >
    > > > > > and it also allowed me to produce good power across a much wider range of rpms
    > > > >
    > > > > This doesn't fit with my experience: twiddling away at high cadence
    but
    > > > low
    > > > > power doesn't seem to do anything for my ability to generate high
    power
    > > at
    > > > a
    > > > > high cadence. (I believe that Shaun Wallace once said the exact same
    > > > thing.)
    > > > > Indeed, from a physiological perspective there is little if any
    reason
    > > to
    > > > > expect that it would.
    > > > >
    > > > > Andy ("bless you, Tulio Campagnolo") Coggan
    >
    >
    > I have to agree with Andy and Shaun Wallace, just spinning in a low gear
    doesn't do anything for
    > your power output in an actual race gear. It does help your "turnover"
    (sprint snap, jumping etc.)
    > My experience with my coach is that high speed, high cadence, motorpacing
    in a race gear or
    > overgearing is what takes care of being able to "spin" a big gear. Dave
     
  18. Dave

    Dave Guest

    "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > ugh, wake up!
    >
    > Think about what I am saying: Working on pedaling technique enables a person to apply good power
    > across a wider range of rpms.
    >
    > Restated, I am saying that improvements in pedaling technique enables a person to apply their
    > horsepower to a wider range of rpms.
    >
    > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

    No... you said, and I quote " practicing very high rpms helped me to have a smooth spin" That is ALL
    high cadence will do for you. Having good power output allows you to apply good power across a wider
    range of rpms. Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do with power output in any range

    Dave
     
  19. Xzzy

    Xzzy Guest

    Dave,

    You have slurred what I said, with your statement. Going forward, if you quote me, then please
    separate your beliefs from my statements.

    Your statement: "Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do with power output in any range".

    is your statement of what you believe, but the point of this thread is ( view the original post ):
    "What's the current research/dogma on this very high cadence work? Is it a waste of time, or even
    counter-productive, or does it help some aspect of my riding/racing?"

    In other words, does high cadence workouts improve riding/racing?

    Using different words, what I am saying is: Improved pedaling technique translates into improved
    ability to deliver horsepower. Further, it has been my experience that efficiencies gained from
    improved pedaling technique = more power output.

    If you disagree with what I am saying, then I feel you spend too much time in a lab.

    John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com

    "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "xzzy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > ugh, wake up!
    > >
    > > Think about what I am saying: Working on pedaling technique enables a
    person
    > > to apply good power across a wider range of rpms.
    > >
    > > Restated, I am saying that improvements in pedaling technique enables a person to apply their
    > > horsepower to a wider range of rpms.
    > >
    > > John Bickmore www.BicycleCam.com www.Feed-Zone.com
    >
    >
    > No... you said, and I quote " practicing very high rpms helped me to have
    a smooth spin" That is
    > ALL high cadence will do for you. Having good power output allows you to
    apply good power across a
    > wider range of rpms. Having a smooth spin has absolutely nothing to do
    with power output in any
    > range
    >
    > Dave
     
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