Fat for fuel

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Warren, May 7, 2003.

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  1. Warren

    Warren Guest

    Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of this has been mentioned or is
    known already but I'll summarize it anyway to confirm some opinions.

    Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can do
    this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.

    This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in addition
    to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes on the day
    after a hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and fluids and then go
    out for 3-4 hours at medium pace.

    He wasn't sure how much bodyfat vs. eaten fat was used during races but the best pre-race meals are
    somewhat high in (good) fats. The problem with the fats that many riders eat during the race is they
    are often bad fats. Ham and cheese sandwiches are not the majority of what they eat during races.
    Fats help slow down the release of energy from the digestion of sugars. Too much sugar/carbs before
    and during the event causes digestion problems and rapid releases of sugars which can also encourage
    too much lactate production.

    Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and it
    is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier. Back
    when insulin was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections for
    these reasons.

    Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels but over a period of several
    months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to blood sugar increases will
    change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we can generate a very strong
    insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right after training is very,
    very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.

    Many riders report that they feel especially good 1-2 days after they "bonk" i.e., run out of
    glycogen during a ride. This is because significant amounts of growth hormone are released as a
    protective measure by the body and to help convert fats to fuel. (Another reason why hGH is being
    used by some athletes?)

    Race food is about 25% of total food eaten during a stage race. Breakfast is relatively high protein
    and fat, with carbohydrate. When Andy Hampsten first came to the team (7-11) he was eating oatmeal
    and pasta for breakfast and 90 minutes into the race he was looking around for more sugar.
    Eventually he learned to eat something like a chicken breast with an egg on top before races and he
    did much better.

    They will use IV's during stage races to replace mostly fluids. They don't want too much fluid in
    the stomach because it dilutes the digestive fluids needed to digest all the food they need to eat.

    Running out of bodyfat stores during a stage race is usually not a problem but they watch closely to
    make sure the riders are eating enough.

    They don't keep track of % of fat, carbs, protein but several years ago they did and it varied
    between 55-65% carbs, with Northern Europeans likely to have more fat and protein than the others.

    This is all I remember from the 5 minutes or so that we talked about this topic.

    -WG

    P.S. When Eric Heiden was an Olympian his VO2 max was 84 and he weighed 185lbs. That's really high
    for someone his size.
     
    Tags:


  2. Sam

    Sam Guest

    There have been some published studies on what riders eat during the major Tours. Do a PubMed
    search. Jeukendrup has published several of them.

    I think eating no carbs for breakfast does not make any sense. It only reduces the effectiveness of
    the training in the morning and that is a bad idea.

    Cycling is a sport where myth trumps truth all too often.

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:070520031555252726%[email protected]...
    > Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of this has been mentioned or is
    > known already but I'll summarize it anyway to confirm some opinions.
    >
    > Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can do
    > this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.
    >
    > This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
    > addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes on
    > the day after a hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and fluids
    > and then go out for 3-4 hours at medium pace.
    >
    > He wasn't sure how much bodyfat vs. eaten fat was used during races but the best pre-race meals
    > are somewhat high in (good) fats. The problem with the fats that many riders eat during the race
    > is they are often bad fats. Ham and cheese sandwiches are not the majority of what they eat during
    > races. Fats help slow down the release of energy from the digestion of sugars. Too much
    > sugar/carbs before and during the event causes digestion problems and rapid releases of sugars
    > which can also encourage too much lactate production.
    >
    > Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and it
    > is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier. Back
    > when insulin was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections for these
    > reasons.
    >
    > Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels but over a period of several
    > months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to blood sugar increases will
    > change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we can generate a very strong
    > insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right after training is very,
    > very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.
    >
    > Many riders report that they feel especially good 1-2 days after they "bonk" i.e., run out of
    > glycogen during a ride. This is because significant amounts of growth hormone are released as a
    > protective measure by the body and to help convert fats to fuel. (Another reason why hGH is being
    > used by some athletes?)
    >
    > Race food is about 25% of total food eaten during a stage race. Breakfast is relatively high
    > protein and fat, with carbohydrate. When Andy Hampsten first came to the team (7-11) he was eating
    > oatmeal and pasta for breakfast and 90 minutes into the race he was looking around for more sugar.
    > Eventually he learned to eat something like a chicken breast with an egg on top before races and
    > he did much better.
    >
    > They will use IV's during stage races to replace mostly fluids. They don't want too much
    > fluid in the stomach because it dilutes the digestive fluids needed to digest all the food
    > they need to eat.
    >
    > Running out of bodyfat stores during a stage race is usually not a problem but they watch closely
    > to make sure the riders are eating enough.
    >
    > They don't keep track of % of fat, carbs, protein but several years ago they did and it varied
    > between 55-65% carbs, with Northern Europeans likely to have more fat and protein than the others.
    >
    > This is all I remember from the 5 minutes or so that we talked about this topic.
    >
    > -WG
    >
    > P.S. When Eric Heiden was an Olympian his VO2 max was 84 and he weighed 185lbs. That's really high
    > for someone his size.
     
  3. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Sam <[email protected]> wrote:

    > There have been some published studies on what riders eat during the major Tours. Do a PubMed
    > search. Jeukendrup has published several of them.
    >
    > I think eating no carbs for breakfast does not make any sense. It only reduces the effectiveness
    > of the training in the morning and that is a bad idea.

    Did you notice who said this, who the training is intended for, what the purpose is, and the fact
    that the training is infrequent and not hard?

    -WG

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:070520031555252726%[email protected]...
    > > Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of this has been mentioned or is
    > > known already but I'll summarize it anyway to confirm some opinions.
    > >
    > > Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can
    > > do this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.
    > >
    > > This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
    > > addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes
    > > on the day after a hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and
    > > fluids and then go out for 3-4 hours at medium pace.
    > >
    > > He wasn't sure how much bodyfat vs. eaten fat was used during races but the best pre-race meals
    > > are somewhat high in (good) fats. The problem with the fats that many riders eat during the race
    > > is they are often bad fats. Ham and cheese sandwiches are not the majority of what they eat
    > > during races. Fats help slow down the release of energy from the digestion of sugars. Too much
    > > sugar/carbs before and during the event causes digestion problems and rapid releases of sugars
    > > which can also encourage too much lactate production.
    > >
    > > Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and
    > > it is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier.
    > > Back when insulin was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections
    > > for these reasons.
    > >
    > > Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels but over a period of several
    > > months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to blood sugar increases
    > > will change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we can generate a very
    > > strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right after training
    > > is very, very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.
    > >
    > > Many riders report that they feel especially good 1-2 days after they "bonk" i.e., run out of
    > > glycogen during a ride. This is because significant amounts of growth hormone are released as a
    > > protective measure by the body and to help convert fats to fuel. (Another reason why hGH is
    > > being used by some athletes?)
    > >
    > > Race food is about 25% of total food eaten during a stage race. Breakfast is relatively high
    > > protein and fat, with carbohydrate. When Andy Hampsten first came to the team (7-11) he was
    > > eating oatmeal and pasta for breakfast and 90 minutes into the race he was looking around for
    > > more sugar. Eventually he learned to eat something like a chicken breast with an egg on top
    > > before races and he did much better.
    > >
    > > They will use IV's during stage races to replace mostly fluids. They don't want too much fluid
    > > in the stomach because it dilutes the digestive fluids needed to digest all the food they need
    > > to eat.
    > >
    > > Running out of bodyfat stores during a stage race is usually not a problem but they watch
    > > closely to make sure the riders are eating enough.
    > >
    > > They don't keep track of % of fat, carbs, protein but several years ago they did and it varied
    > > between 55-65% carbs, with Northern Europeans likely to have more fat and protein than the
    > > others.
    > >
    > > This is all I remember from the 5 minutes or so that we talked about this topic.
    > >
    > > -WG
    > >
    > > P.S. When Eric Heiden was an Olympian his VO2 max was 84 and he weighed 185lbs. That's really
    > > high for someone his size.
     
  4. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    I've been noticing that I ride a lot better for a lot longer when I have sausage and eggs for
    breakfast than all of that "healthy" grain based cereals.

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:070520031555252726%[email protected]...
    > Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of
    this
    > has been mentioned or is known already but I'll summarize it anyway
    to
    > confirm some opinions.
    >
    > Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can do
    > this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.
    >
    > This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
    > addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes on
    > the day after
    a
    > hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and fluids and then go out
    > for 3-4 hours at medium pace.
    >
    > He wasn't sure how much bodyfat vs. eaten fat was used during races
    but
    > the best pre-race meals are somewhat high in (good) fats. The
    problem
    > with the fats that many riders eat during the race is they are often bad fats. Ham and cheese
    > sandwiches are not the majority of what
    they
    > eat during races. Fats help slow down the release of energy from the digestion of sugars. Too much
    > sugar/carbs before and during the
    event
    > causes digestion problems and rapid releases of sugars which can
    also
    > encourage too much lactate production.
    >
    > Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and
    > it is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier.
    > Back when
    insulin
    > was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections for these reasons.
    >
    > Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels
    but
    > over a period of several months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to
    > blood sugar increases will change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we
    > can generate a very strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar
    > right after training is very, very important
    to
    > generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.
    >
    > Many riders report that they feel especially good 1-2 days after
    they
    > "bonk" i.e., run out of glycogen during a ride. This is because significant amounts of growth
    > hormone are released as a protective measure by the body and to help convert fats to fuel.
    > (Another
    reason
    > why hGH is being used by some athletes?)
    >
    > Race food is about 25% of total food eaten during a stage race. Breakfast is relatively high
    > protein and fat, with carbohydrate.
    When
    > Andy Hampsten first came to the team (7-11) he was eating oatmeal
    and
    > pasta for breakfast and 90 minutes into the race he was looking
    around
    > for more sugar. Eventually he learned to eat something like a
    chicken
    > breast with an egg on top before races and he did much better.
    >
    > They will use IV's during stage races to replace mostly fluids. They don't want too much
    > fluid in the stomach because it dilutes the digestive fluids needed to digest all the food
    > they need to eat.
    >
    > Running out of bodyfat stores during a stage race is usually not a problem but they watch closely
    > to make sure the riders are eating enough.
    >
    > They don't keep track of % of fat, carbs, protein but several years
    ago
    > they did and it varied between 55-65% carbs, with Northern Europeans likely to have more fat and
    > protein than the others.
    >
    > This is all I remember from the 5 minutes or so that we talked about this topic.
    >
    > -WG
    >
    > P.S. When Eric Heiden was an Olympian his VO2 max was 84 and he
    weighed
    > 185lbs. That's really high for someone his size.
     
  5. jan

    jan Guest

    warren wrote:

    >
    > Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and it
    > is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier. Back
    > when insulin was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections for these
    > reasons.
    >

    And that response can only be achieved by banned injections. As a type 1 diabetic I should know some
    about this. To get a surge of insulin a healthy person has to eat lots of carbs (fast). If this
    surge is achieved, it may be too big and muscles open up, alright. They open up to give more energy
    to the blood stream to counter the insulin surge.

    Where do these people get their myths?

    > Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels but over a period of several
    > months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to blood sugar increases will
    > change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we can generate a very strong
    > insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right after training is very,
    > very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.

    Your body loads up, like it or not.

    Jan
     
  6. Donald Munro

    Donald Munro Guest

    warren wrote:
    > Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of this has been mentioned or is
    > known already but I'll summarize it anyway to confirm some opinions.

    Good summary, thanks.

    > generate a very strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right
    > after training is very, very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.

    Is this a good excuse to eat fudge ? Seriously though I find I seem to recover much quicker after a
    long hard race if I eat fudge and drink milk afterwards.
     
  7. Wayne

    Wayne Guest

    > Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can do
    > this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.
    >
    > This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
    > addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes on
    > the day after a hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and fluids
    > and then go out for 3-4 hours at medium pace.

    Yes, the fitter the person the more power they should be able to produce as a result of fat
    oxidation. BUT, I think Max may be off about diet affecting the abilitiy to "train" the body to
    rely of fats. My understanding of this area is that "training the body to rely on fats" is a
    temporary consequence of the low-carb/high-fat meal (i.e. a greater reliance on fats will only
    occur during that ride). That is, you can't "teach" your body to use fats vs. carbs for energy by
    manipulating the diet, riding without carbs, etc. Any effect you see is the result of the diet at
    that moment (or the preceding meal), not a change in the person's physiology. Of course, just
    getting fitter (increasing aerobic capacity) will allow you to rely more on fats for energy, but
    that's different than saying you can "teach" the body to rely more on fats by simply avoiding carbs
    during training, etc.

    > Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and it
    > is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier. Back
    > when insulin was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections for these
    > reasons.

    Yes, insulin causes glucose transporters to come to the surface of muscle cells so that glucose can
    enter them, and it also stimulates protien synthesis within the cells.

    > Race food is about 25% of total food eaten during a stage race. Breakfast is relatively high
    > protein and fat, with carbohydrate. When Andy Hampsten first came to the team (7-11) he was eating
    > oatmeal and pasta for breakfast and 90 minutes into the race he was looking around for more sugar.
    > Eventually he learned to eat something like a chicken breast with an egg on top before races and
    > he did much better.

    This is quite consistent with the reason I gave in the ealier thread about why eating fats before or
    early in a race could be advantageous, which was, such a meal (or consuming some fats early in a
    race) may shift the body's carb/fat energy ratio, ultimately providing a glycogen sparing effect.

    Wayne
     
  8. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    On 8 May 2003 03:04:11 -0700, [email protected] (Donald Munro) wrote:

    >warren wrote:
    >> Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of this has been mentioned or is
    >> known already but I'll summarize it anyway to confirm some opinions.
    >
    >Good summary, thanks.
    >
    >> generate a very strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right
    >> after training is very, very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.
    >
    >Is this a good excuse to eat fudge ? Seriously though I find I seem to recover much quicker after a
    >long hard race if I eat fudge and drink milk afterwards.

    Protein + carbs is going to create the greatest release of insulin and coincidentally are the two
    things you need post-training. For endurance work a
    15:1 carb to protein ratio is a good baseline. Add more protein for weight work.

    Fat is good food, but post-workout it'll just slow gastric emptying keeping you from exploiting the
    insulin sensitivity window to the greatest extent.

    --
    Scott Johnson "Always with the excuses for small legs. People like you are why they only open the
    top half of caskets." -Tommy Bowen
     
  9. Wayne

    Wayne Guest

    > And that response can only be achieved by banned injections. As a type 1 diabetic I should know
    > some about this. To get a surge of insulin a healthy person has to eat lots of carbs (fast). If
    > this surge is achieved, it may be too big and muscles open up, alright. They open up to give more
    > energy to the blood stream to counter the insulin surge.
    >
    > Where do these people get their myths?

    Indeed, I don't think your statement is accurate. I'm about 100% sure muscles don't have the ability
    to breakdown glycogen and release glucose into the blood. A drop in blood sugar is countered by the
    release of the hormone glucagon which stimulates hepatic release of glucose into the blood. Insulin
    stimulates a glucose transporter (Glut-4, I think) to come to the surface of cells and move glucose
    from the blood into the tissue. The transporter doesn't transport both ways. The effect of low-blood
    sugar induced by insulin would be countered by your bodies release of glucagon and it's effect on
    liver glycogen.
    >
    > > Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels but over a period of several
    > > months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to blood sugar increases
    > > will change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we can generate a very
    > > strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar right after training
    > > is very, very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.
    >
    > Your body loads up, like it or not.

    Yes, glycogen stores will be replaced eventually (like within 48 hours or so) but a big sugar
    induced post-exercise insulin spike increases the rate at which the glycogen is replaced early on
    following exercise. This could be critically important if you have to go out and do it all again
    about 18 hours later.

    Wayne
     
  10. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Wayne <[email protected]> wrote:

    > > Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can
    > > do this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.
    > >
    > > This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
    > > addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes
    > > on the day after a hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and
    > > fluids and then go out for 3-4 hours at medium pace.
    >
    > Yes, the fitter the person the more power they should be able to produce as a result of fat
    > oxidation. BUT, I think Max may be off about diet affecting the abilitiy to "train" the body to
    > rely of fats.

    I just want to underline the fact that these guys are already able to race at "high intensity" using
    mostly fat and not a huge amount of carbs before racing so a 3-4 hour recovery ride on just protein
    and fat doesn't seem like much of a stretch to me.

    -WG
     
  11. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Wayne <[email protected]> wrote:

    > > > Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels but over a period of
    > > > several months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to blood sugar
    > > > increases will change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we can
    > > > generate a very strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar
    > > > right after training is very, very important to generate a strong, beneficial surge of
    > > > insulin.
    > >
    > > Your body loads up, like it or not.
    >
    > Yes, glycogen stores will be replaced eventually (like within 48 hours or so) but a big sugar
    > induced post-exercise insulin spike increases the rate at which the glycogen is replaced early on
    > following exercise. This could be critically important if you have to go out and do it all again
    > about 18 hours later.
    >
    > Wayne

    Max mentioned that a pro can fully replace their glycogen within 24 hours, longer for the rest of
    us. After a full depletion of glycogen you can replace to a level almost 2 times the normal amount
    ("carbo loading" done correctly).

    We mentioned Armstrong bonking in the Tour a few years ago and then having a good day the following
    day. GH releases and more than normal glycogen?

    -WG
     
  12. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Top Sirloin
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On 8 May 2003 03:04:11 -0700, [email protected] (Donald Munro) wrote:

    > >Is this a good excuse to eat fudge ? Seriously though I find I seem to recover much quicker after
    > >a long hard race if I eat fudge and drink milk afterwards.
    >
    > Protein + carbs is going to create the greatest release of insulin and coincidentally are the two
    > things you need post-training. For endurance work a
    > 15:1 carb to protein ratio is a good baseline. Add more protein for weight work.

    MIA Andy Coggan and many others have said a ratio of 4-5:1 is best. Where do you read that 15:1 is
    better? I'm picturing that post ride diet and it doesn't sound anything like what I've been
    advised to do.

    In fact, Max doesn't even mention eating so many grams of carbs or protein or a certain ratio. It's
    more like, have some sports drink, cereal and maybe a small protein drink. An hour later have ~200g
    of fish or chicken, some vegetables wil olive oil and parmessan cheese, a little bread or pasta.
    Maybe a small protein drink before bed if you're hungry. Perhaps this approach is intended for
    people who race and train 6+ days a week because adhering to specific ratios might begin to
    interfere too much with what's needed day in and day out over 11 months a year.

    -WG
     
  13. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080520030825565829%[email protected]...

    > Max mentioned that a pro can fully replace their glycogen within 24 hours, longer for the rest of
    > us. After a full depletion of glycogen you can replace to a level almost 2 times the normal amount
    > ("carbo loading" done correctly).

    Training does enhance the rate of post-exercise muscle glycogen synthesis. However, even untrained
    individuals can restore muscle glycogen in 24 h if they consume enough carbohydrate/drive plasma
    glucose and insulin levels high enough/long enough.

    Andy ("Eat to ride, ride to eat") Coggan
     
  14. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080520030834417407%[email protected]...

    > MIA Andy Coggan and many others have said a ratio of 4-5:1 is best.

    Actually, I have specifically hypothesized that 4:1 is less-than-ideal, and that a higher ratio of
    CHO:protein is likely to be better (10:1 is what I would center a study around).
     
  15. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080520030837398130%[email protected]...

    > I just want to underline the fact that these guys are already able to race at "high intensity"
    > using mostly fat

    Fuel utilization during exercise is a function of intensity, duration, acute and chronic diet, and
    training status (and perhaps age and gender, although separating these influences from the others -
    esp. fitness/training status - is exceedingly difficult). Elite or not, all endurance athletes are
    subject to the same effects, which means that a pro cyclist exercising at a given percentage of
    their lactate threshold will use a fuel "mix" comparable to that of a totally untrained person
    exercising at the same percentage of their lactate threshold. The difference, of course, is that a
    given percentage of lactate threshold represents a much higher absolute and a somewhat higher
    relative intensity for the trained cyclist than the untrained subject.

    Andy ("Carbohydrate is King") Coggan
     
  16. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    On Thu, 08 May 2003 15:36:31 GMT, warren <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, Top Sirloin
    ><[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> On 8 May 2003 03:04:11 -0700, [email protected] (Donald Munro) wrote:
    >
    >> >Is this a good excuse to eat fudge ? Seriously though I find I seem to recover much quicker
    >> >after a long hard race if I eat fudge and drink milk afterwards.
    >>
    >> Protein + carbs is going to create the greatest release of insulin and coincidentally are the two
    >> things you need post-training. For endurance work a
    >> 15:1 carb to protein ratio is a good baseline. Add more protein for weight work.
    >
    >MIA Andy Coggan and many others have said a ratio of 4-5:1 is best. Where do you read that 15:1 is
    >better? I'm picturing that post ride diet and it doesn't sound anything like what I've been
    >advised to do.

    I didn't mean to. It was a typo and should've been 5:1.

    >In fact, Max doesn't even mention eating so many grams of carbs or protein or a certain ratio. It's
    >more like, have some sports drink, cereal and maybe a small protein drink. An hour later have ~200g
    >of fish or chicken, some vegetables wil olive oil and parmessan cheese, a little bread or pasta.
    >Maybe a small protein drink before bed if you're hungry. Perhaps this approach is intended for
    >people who race and train 6+ days a week because adhering to specific ratios might begin to
    >interfere too much with what's needed day in and day out over 11 months a year.

    This approach works good because compliance will be high. Actually, it's a lot like the old standard
    bodybuilders diet of protein+carbs every three hours with minimal fat intake. There are much worse
    ways to eat.

    The weightrainer, especially on a diet, will specifically take in dextrose, which preferentially
    replenishes muscle glycogen over liver glycogen, and a fast digesting protein like whey to take
    maximum advantage of the post-workout insulin sensitivity windows. The bodybuilder trying to add
    muscle will include some glucose or fructose to help fill liver glycogen as anabolism will increased
    the higher liver glycogen is raised.

    They then eat a regular meal 1-2 hours after their workout.

    --
    Scott Johnson Fry Mumia http://www.danielfaulkner.com
     
  17. Jeff Jones

    Jeff Jones Guest

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080520030837398130%[email protected]...
    >
    > > I just want to underline the fact that these guys are already able to race at "high intensity"
    > > using mostly fat
    >
    > Fuel utilization during exercise is a function of intensity, duration,
    acute
    > and chronic diet, and training status (and perhaps age and gender,
    although
    > separating these influences from the others - esp. fitness/training
    status -
    > is exceedingly difficult). Elite or not, all endurance athletes are
    subject
    > to the same effects, which means that a pro cyclist exercising at a given percentage of their
    > lactate threshold will use a fuel "mix" comparable to that of a totally untrained person
    > exercising at the same percentage of their lactate threshold. The difference, of course, is that a
    > given percentage of lactate threshold represents a much higher absolute and a somewhat higher
    > relative intensity for the trained cyclist than the untrained subject.
    >
    > Andy ("Carbohydrate is King") Coggan

    Andy,

    I have a question for you, based on what I think are repeatable observations: Should you worry about
    CHO intake in a medium length race, say 110 km in ~2'30.00, provided you've had a substantial
    breakfast and lunch beforehand?

    Reason I ask is that I notice if I start drinking sports drink or eating stuff at the halfway point
    of a race, my legs suddenly start to get really sore really quickly. I don't know if that simply
    coincides with the fact that I'm running out of CHO, but before I start drinking/eating anything
    other than water, my legs always feel fine, and there's no real drive to start eating unless I
    deliberately tell myself to do so. It's feels to me like a big switch in energy systems, and it
    happens every time I start eating/drinking.

    Maybe in the next race I'll just take water and see how far I get. Can't be any worse than blowing
    up within 10 km of starting to eat. Or maybe it's a question of eating quite a bit more once you
    start to make sure there is enough fuel to support CHO burning again.

    For what it's worth, I hardly ever eat while training unless it's over 4 hrs, and I'm 8 kilos
    heavier than when I used to race a bit more, so I ain't running out of that substrate very
    quickly :)

    Jeff
     
  18. Tom Kunich wrote:

    > I've been noticing that I ride a lot better for a lot longer when I have sausage and eggs for
    > breakfast than all of that "healthy" grain based cereals.

    Write a diet book--everyone else has!

    Steve

    >
    >
    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:070520031555252726%[email protected]...
    > > Following up... I asked Max Testa about this topic today. Much of
    > this
    > > has been mentioned or is known already but I'll summarize it anyway
    > to
    > > confirm some opinions.
    > >
    > > Pros can race at "very high intensity" using fat (especially tryglicerides) for fuel. They can
    > > do this much better than a decent amateur cyclist.
    > >
    > > This ability can be trained with a focus on certain kinds of aerobic capacity intervals in
    > > addition to the widely-used "LSD" training. Another way they improve this ability is sometimes
    > > on the day after
    > a
    > > hard race they will have no carbs for breakfast, just fats, protein, and fluids and then go out
    > > for 3-4 hours at medium pace.
    > >
    > > He wasn't sure how much bodyfat vs. eaten fat was used during races
    > but
    > > the best pre-race meals are somewhat high in (good) fats. The
    > problem
    > > with the fats that many riders eat during the race is they are often bad fats. Ham and cheese
    > > sandwiches are not the majority of what
    > they
    > > eat during races. Fats help slow down the release of energy from the digestion of sugars. Too
    > > much sugar/carbs before and during the
    > event
    > > causes digestion problems and rapid releases of sugars which can
    > also
    > > encourage too much lactate production.
    > >
    > > Insulin response is very important. When there is a surge of insulin the muscles "open up" and
    > > it is easier for sugars to be stored and I think he said protein can get to the muscle easier.
    > > Back when
    > insulin
    > > was not on the banned list the teams he worked with used insulin injections for these reasons.
    > >
    > > Eating small, frequent meals not only stabilizes blood sugar levels
    > but
    > > over a period of several months of some proper training for this ability the insulin response to
    > > blood sugar increases will change slightly. By minimizing the need for insulin during the day we
    > > can generate a very strong insulin response when we need it. Drinking or eating very high sugar
    > > right after training is very, very important
    > to
    > > generate a strong, beneficial surge of insulin.
    > >
    > > Many riders report that they feel especially good 1-2 days after
    > they
    > > "bonk" i.e., run out of glycogen during a ride. This is because significant amounts of growth
    > > hormone are released as a protective measure by the body and to help convert fats to fuel.
    > > (Another
    > reason
    > > why hGH is being used by some athletes?)
    > >
    > > Race food is about 25% of total food eaten during a stage race. Breakfast is relatively high
    > > protein and fat, with carbohydrate.
    > When
    > > Andy Hampsten first came to the team (7-11) he was eating oatmeal
    > and
    > > pasta for breakfast and 90 minutes into the race he was looking
    > around
    > > for more sugar. Eventually he learned to eat something like a
    > chicken
    > > breast with an egg on top before races and he did much better.
    > >
    > > They will use IV's during stage races to replace mostly fluids. They don't want too much fluid
    > > in the stomach because it dilutes the digestive fluids needed to digest all the food they need
    > > to eat.
    > >
    > > Running out of bodyfat stores during a stage race is usually not a problem but they watch
    > > closely to make sure the riders are eating enough.
    > >
    > > They don't keep track of % of fat, carbs, protein but several years
    > ago
    > > they did and it varied between 55-65% carbs, with Northern Europeans likely to have more fat and
    > > protein than the others.
    > >
    > > This is all I remember from the 5 minutes or so that we talked about this topic.
    > >
    > > -WG
    > >
    > > P.S. When Eric Heiden was an Olympian his VO2 max was 84 and he
    > weighed
    > > 185lbs. That's really high for someone his size.
    > >

    --
    Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 http://www.dentaltwins.com
     
  19. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Andy Coggan
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080520030837398130%[email protected]...
    >
    > > I just want to underline the fact that these guys are already able to race at "high intensity"
    > > using mostly fat
    >
    > Fuel utilization during exercise is a function of intensity, duration, acute and chronic diet, and
    > training status (and perhaps age and gender, although separating these influences from the others
    > - esp. fitness/training status - is exceedingly difficult). Elite or not, all endurance athletes
    > are subject to the same effects, which means that a pro cyclist exercising at a given percentage
    > of their lactate threshold will use a fuel "mix" comparable to that of a totally untrained person
    > exercising at the same percentage of their lactate threshold. The difference, of course, is that a
    > given percentage of lactate threshold represents a much higher absolute and a somewhat higher
    > relative intensity for the trained cyclist than the untrained subject.

    I don't think this is what Max was telling me. I think when he said "higher intensity" he meant
    higher % of LT. And he was making the comparison between "you and me" to a pro which is not the same
    as your comparison.

    How's this example? The better you have trained your slow twitch fibers the less carbs you need on a
    ride at a given % of LT. This has been my recent experience and my comment about this to Max
    prompted his reply that I've written previously in this thread.

    -WG
     
  20. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Andy Coggan
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080520030834417407%[email protected]...
    >
    > > MIA Andy Coggan and many others have said a ratio of 4-5:1 is best.
    >
    > Actually, I have specifically hypothesized that 4:1 is less-than-ideal, and that a higher ratio of
    > CHO:protein is likely to be better (10:1 is what I would center a study around).

    I recall you saying that 4:1 or 5:1 was best and that your Dannon yogurt had this ratio making it a
    perfect food for this objective.

    BTW, Costco's "Kirkland" brand yogurt is even better IMO.

    -WG
     
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