Fat for fuel

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Andy Coggan
<[email protected]> wrote:

> To expand on that a bit: I do think that the notion that there's some magic 2 h "window"
> post-exercise during which you *must* eat to maximize glycogen resynthesis is a
> misinterpretation/misrepresentation of the available research (primarly John Ivy's studies).

What about the better-than-normal amount of help from insulin right after the exercise? Isn't this a
reason to eat a decent amount in the first hour or so?

Would you say that sooner is better than later because of insulin (aside from the time constraints
imposed by sleeping, etc.) ?

You mentioned "driving" insulin longer to increase absorbtion/uptake over a longer period. How do
you do this?

-WG

 

[Andy Coggan]

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:090520030909394576%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Andy Coggan
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > To expand on that a bit: I do think that the notion that there's some
magic
> > 2 h "window" post-exercise during which you *must* eat to maximize
glycogen
> > resynthesis is a misinterpretation/misrepresentation of the available research (primarly John
> > Ivy's studies).
>
> What about the better-than-normal amount of help from insulin right after the exercise? Isn't this
> a reason to eat a decent amount in the first hour or so?

Sure it is. (BTW, the "better-than-normal amount of help from insulin" is the result of an increase
in insulin action, not an increase in insulin secretion...you probably know this, but others may
not). However, glycogen depletion itself is a potent stimulus for glycogen resynthesis (and
accumulation of glycogen tends to inhibit further accumulation). This likely explains why studies
have shown that by the time you get out to 24 hours, it makes little difference (in terms of
glycogen storage - a potentially important caveat) when or what you eat, as long as you eat enough.

> Would you say that sooner is better than later because of insulin (aside from the time constraints
> imposed by sleeping, etc.) ?

I say sooner is better than later based mostly on knowing what it feels like to train hard and then
not eat enough carbohydrate over the next several hours....

> You mentioned "driving" insulin longer to increase absorbtion/uptake over a longer period. How do
> you do this?

It's pretty easy: just eat more CHO at more frequent intervals (my favorite food for this purpose is
Fig Newtons).

Andy Coggan

 

[Andy Coggan]

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:090520030858113204%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Wayne <[email protected]> wrote:

> > > Maybe you can join he and Eric on one of their rides. You can tell him about your study
> > > results and he can tell you about the (legal) injection that the pros like to get right before
> > > starting a TT?
> >
> > This is relevant to this discussion, how?
>
> It's relevant to Andy. Andy is a TT'er mostly and sometimes pursuiter.

While TTing is my strength (and sprinting my weakness), I would describe myself as all-around road
racer - and I think other 40+ riders in the Mid-Atlantic region wouldn't dispute that claim. As for
pursuiting, I've only ridden two 3k's in my life, and only one of those was a serious effort.

> He might be interested in the benefits of the injection, or at least its ingredients, and they
> would have plenty of other things to talk about during the ride.

W/o even knowing what's in the syringe, I submit that any benefit is purely
psychological - and I'm surprised that a physician of Testa's reputation would be into playing
such games.

Andy Coggan

 

[Top Sirloin]

On Fri, 09 May 2003 16:11:30 GMT, warren <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Andy Coggan
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> To expand on that a bit: I do think that the notion that there's some magic 2 h "window"
>> post-exercise during which you *must* eat to maximize glycogen resynthesis is a
>> misinterpretation/misrepresentation of the available research (primarly John Ivy's studies).
>
>What about the better-than-normal amount of help from insulin right after the exercise? Isn't this
>a reason to eat a decent amount in the first hour or so?

Keep in mind that it's not that you produce more insulin, it's that your muscles are more insulin
sensitive post-workout.

--

Scott Johnson "be a man ,stop looking for handouts , eat ,lift and shut your mouth" -John Carlo

 

[Wayne]

> 99% of coaches are not being paid to train the best riders in the world like Max was/is. Why do
> you think he is part of that 1%?

Maybe it's what he knows about the stuff they put in their syringes that makes him so valuable

Wayne

 

[Sam]

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:090520030847445469%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Andy Coggan
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I agree w/ your comment about ratios or percentages generally not being
as
> > informative as expressing intakes or requirements in terms of grams per kilogram body weight (or
> > better still (?), lean body mass).
>
> Aha! -Based on LBM, of course! Much more relevant, but that book won't sell because few people
> want to admit what their LBM is.
>
> -WG 185

It is far easier for people to figure their weight than determining LBM.

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Andy Coggan
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:090520030909394576%[email protected]...

> > You mentioned "driving" insulin longer to increase absorbtion/uptake over a longer period. How
> > do you do this?
>
> It's pretty easy: just eat more CHO at more frequent intervals (my favorite food for this purpose
> is Fig Newtons).

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Raspberry Newtons, heated in the microwave are my choice.
Cytomax says they contain more polylactate which allows me to train harder.

-WG

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Andy Coggan
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> > He might be interested in the benefits of the injection, or at least its ingredients, and they
> > would have plenty of other things to talk about during the ride.
>
> W/o even knowing what's in the syringe, I submit that any benefit is purely
> psychological - and I'm surprised that a physician of Testa's reputation would be into playing
> such games.

He says he's not sure if, or why it works as well as the riders say it does, but even the Tour
winner wants it.

-WG

 

[Tom Kunich]

Thanks. It occurred to me three postings later what it meant.

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:080520032118134335%[email protected]...
> In article
<[email protected]>,
> Tom Kunich <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > For us chemistry handicaped people - what do you mean by CHO?
>
> Carbohydrate.

 

[Kyle Legate]

warren wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Wayne <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Again, why do think someone couldn't be capable of training bike racers without a 100% accurate
>> grasp of exercise physiology? If this were the case 90% of coaches would be out of business!
>
> 99% of coaches are not being paid to train the best riders in the world like Max was/is. Why do
> you think he is part of that 1%?
>>
Like everything else, it's not what you know but who you know.

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, Kyle Legate <[email protected]> wrote:

> warren wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, Wayne <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Again, why do think someone couldn't be capable of training bike racers without a 100% accurate
> >> grasp of exercise physiology? If this were the case 90% of coaches would be out of business!
> >
> > 99% of coaches are not being paid to train the best riders in the world like Max was/is. Why do
> > you think he is part of that 1%?
> >>
> Like everything else, it's not what you know but who you know.

Typical response from a person who doesn't know enough to get the job.
Mr. Squinczi pays him because he can help Mapei reach their goals. The proof is in the results.

-WG

 

[Risto Varanka]

Andy Coggan <[email protected]> wrote:
: I do recall endorsing Dannon (or other similar brands) yogurt as a "recovery food".

Which level of ability do you need before you can sign contracts for endorsing a particular brand of
yoghurt on rec.bicycles.racing?

--
Risto "definitely needs new shoes" Varanka http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html varis at no
spam please iki fi

 

[Risto Varanka]

Wayne <[email protected]> wrote:
: My understanding of this area is that "training the body to rely on fats" is a temporary
: consequence of the low-carb/high-fat meal (i.e. a greater reliance on fats will only occur during
: that ride). That is, you can't "teach" your body to use fats vs. carbs for energy by manipulating
: the diet, riding without carbs, etc. Any effect you see is the result of the diet at that moment
: (or the preceding meal), not a change in the person's physiology. Of course, just getting fitter
: (increasing aerobic capacity) will allow you to rely more on fats for energy, but that's
: different than saying you can "teach" the body to rely more on fats by simply avoiding carbs
: during training, etc.

So is there no sense in riding over 1.5 hours, because that depletes glycogen stores so primarily
fat is available? Any other way to train for burning fats - training in the lower HR zones or
something?

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi

 

[Risto Varanka]

warren <[email protected]> wrote:
: Isn't there some evidence that turkey contains a substance (tryptophan?) that not only helps you
: sleep but also aids in the absorption of protein?

If I recall over a decade back, that amino acid is also present in milk, and there are tables where
you can look things like these up.

In these days one might use Google ;p

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi

 

[Risto Varanka]

Andy Coggan <[email protected]> wrote:
: W/o even knowing what's in the syringe, I submit that any benefit is purely
: psychological - and I'm surprised that a physician of Testa's reputation would be into playing
: such games.

Psychological benefits don't help performance? Cf. placebo being rather efficient medicine

--
Risto Varanka | http://www.helsinki.fi/~rvaranka/hpv/hpv.html varis at no spam please iki fi