Frames: aero vs. conventional?

[Randyforriding]

Until very recently, I'd only ridden steel. I now have a relatively inexpensive bike with a carbon frame (Wilier Izoard). The performance jump is enough that I'm considering replacing my steel frame with a good carbon frame. Possibly a Cervelo.
I have a choice. Get an aero frame with tear-drop shaped tubes, or one with conventional round or squarish tubes. I don't race, but I'm as competitive as the next guy and don't want to give up any performance advantage. On the other hand, I'm not young any more and don't want a frame that beats me up. I live along the edge of the Rocky Mountains, so climbing performance is always an issue.
My question is, are aero frames worth their drawbacks, if any? Or should I go with squaval (Cervelo term for their squarish tubes)?
Randy

 

[oldbobcat]

Races are still won on "conventional" carbon frames, so I wouldn't overthink this. Aside from the frontal area of the rider and the fit of his shorts and jersey, aerodynamics of the frame doesn't become significant until the speed exceeds 20 mph. We've all seen the fat guy on the S5 with clip-ons, water bottles behind the saddle, and a short riser stem. And then there's yaw, the effect of various angles of crosswind, with some aero bikes and wheels becoming virtual sails. Regarding decent aero performance in all or most conditions, I think the truncated airfoils of Scott's Foil and Trek's '13 Madones are indicating the direction to take. Don't take this as my endorsement of these bikes, please.

Would I turn down an S3 that landed in my lap? Hell, no. Would I choose an S3 over a P3? Hard to say. Can I get back to you with an answer after I ride 'em for a couple hundred miles?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by Randyforriding .
....My question is, are aero frames worth their drawbacks, if any? ...

As mentioned above, unless you're riding pretty fast and spending an awful lot of time riding in the drops it's likely you won't see much if any performance advantage. If you ride like most folks up on the brake hoods and bar tops most of the time on your road bike then aero frame tubing is more or less lost in the noise. IOW, think about buying the trickiest most aero seatpost, yeah it might have a few less grams of drag when tested in the wind tunnel, but then ride sitting bolt upright with maximal frontal area, the gains of that seatpost will be swamped by the relatively huge aero drag of your upper body. Same basic idea for riding aero frame tubes in a relatively upright and comfortable road position. Yeah you might still save some drag but unless you're riding quickly and taking care of the big ticket items like torso angle and frontal position it's not likely to be noticeable or measurable even with a power meter on your bike.

Get a nice frame if you want to upgrade and find something that you really enjoy while riding, heck buy something that you love the looks of, and if that happens to have aero tubes then great but don't buy the aero bike at the expense of other characteristics like handling on the expectation that you'll ride noticeably faster for the same effort. In most cases that just won't be true....now a TT bike, ridden in a good aero position and having already addressed the big ticket items like aero helmet, skinsuit, and deep wheels, now aero frame tubing and hidden cable routing on a bike like that can be noticeable and measurable but I don't think that's what you're talking about.

-Dave

 

[Randyforriding]

I've seen some "compromise" bikes. About half way between a full aero frame and a conventional, but I think in most cases they are meant to convince buyers that they are more aero without actually doing much to reduce drag.
I agree that getting in a better position on the bike is going to get you a lot more than reducing drag on the frame, but if you are already in a good position, you might gain a little, but at what cost? I can go pretty fast, for an old geezer, but I'm still an old geezer. You won't see me in the TDF any time in the future. I'm a long way from being fat, but I'm sure I could stand to lose five pounds or so, which will probably gain me more than any equipment change. But that coffee cake sure goes good with the Starbucks in the morning.
I keep looking for free speed, but very little is free in this world. I guess I need to get back on the indoor trainer. Does everbody hate that as much as I do? Half an hour is about all I can stand.
Randy

 

[alienator]

Dave and OBC pretty much covered everything. Certainly getting an aero frame won't cost you any speed, but as they mentioned you also shouldn't expect to see a big difference in speed. One thing not mentioned is one thing that you quite often will give up with an aero frame (not all of them, but with a lot of them) is ride quality. The tubing shapes in aero frames don't lend themselves to bump attenuation. If you're really looking for something different, why not consider a custom frame? A frame built to fit you is likely the frame on which you will perform best or at least the frame on which you are the most comfortable. For the cost of some of the aero road frames on the market today you can a custom titanium, steel, or ______ frame. Also, be careful not to imbue carbon fiber with any special bike performance or bike comfort properties. The thing that most affects a bike's performance and ride quality is what the builder does with the material at hand.

 

[alfeng]

Quote:Originally Posted by Randyforriding . I keep looking for free speed ...



FWIW. In addition to what has been touched on, without knowing how your bike is set up ... [*]

• 
  
  While you may only be 5 lbs heavier than what you feel is your ideal weight ...
  
  AND, while you may-or-may-not be riding with your hands on the hoods ...

Allow me to say that IF you have a lot of spacers between your headset & stem AND/OR a shallow drop handlebar THEN you could probably achieve some "free" speed by removing most of the head tube spacers [you may-or-may-not need a shorter stem] and/or installing a handlebar which has a deeper drop.

Also, BETTER hubs (e.g., DT SWISS, Shimano Dura Ace or Ultegra, Campagnolo Record or Chorus ... plus, some others) will also give you some "free" speed.

Also, changing your BB (which may mean changing the crankset) could also give you some "free" speed -- Campagnolo BBs seem to have less resistance (to me) which may be MOSTLY due to the seals (or lack of!) which their bearings have when compared with the seals on other BBs.

 

[CAMPYBOB]

"I now have a relatively inexpensive bike with a carbon frame (Wilier Izoard)."

Have you inspected your fork serial number to see if it is in the recalled range?

Wilier's website has all the details: http://wilier-usa.com/en/important-advisory-for-all-izoard-xp-owners/

I also put up a post about the recall in this sub-forum. Search by Wilier or Izoard.


As far as aero goes, drop $1000 on a pair of November 50MM (or equivalent) carbon wheels. You'll achieve an increase in speed/reduced wattage. If you already have good aero wheels, investing in an aero frameset and staying low on the bars could be a good place to spend your money. No such thing as free speed. It costs! /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif

Keep the Izoard. It's a good frameset IMO. And by all accounts, Cervelo frames have a pretty decent ride quality thanks to the chopsticks thin seat stays. Hopefully, you'll be able to find a dealer with test ride options near you.

 

[David Gerchman]

Can you ride areo frames in races? or is there a ule against it? Matter of fact Where can I find the rule sets for starting in some Cat 5 racing.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by David Gerchman .

Can you ride areo frames in races? or is there a ule against it? Matter of fact Where can I find the rule sets for starting in some Cat 5 racing.

No problem riding aero tubing frames in mass start races. Since you mentioned Cat 5, I take it you're in the states. You can get all the racing rules and a lot of other good information including info on filing for an annual racing license at the USAC website here: http://www.usacycling.org/

The rulebook is here: http://www.usacycling.org/usa-cycling-rule-book.htm

But the rules for mass start legal road bikes aren't too complicated and bikes aren't tightly inspected against the rules in local racing even up to the Cat 2 and Cat 3 level. Basically the enforced rules relate to safety so things like no TT style aero bars or other forward protruding bar styles (e.g. MTB bar ends) in mass start road racing, you'll want to have handlebar end plugs installed, no fairings or other add on devices but basically if it looks like a road bike from a bike shop and has two working brakes and isn't a fixie your pretty much good to go.

If you're just getting started then it's a really good idea to find a local racing club you can ride with and or join to speed up the learning curve. Ask around at local bike shops, search for your state bike racing association online to find good clubs for beginners.

-Dave

 

[David Gerchman]

so If you had to pick a specialized bike would you go with the venge or the tarmac?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by David Gerchman .

so If you had to pick a specialized bike would you go with the venge or the tarmac?

I'd ride them both and pick the one that I liked best in terms of:

- Fit
- Handling
- Price
- Aesthetics

In no particular order except that fit is essential.

Some folks buy an aero tubed bike like the Cervelo S5 specifically because they want one bike to use both in mass start racing and in time trials with a pair of clip on aero bars. Nothing wrong with that approach if you like the way the bike rides for the kind of riding most important to you.

-Dave

 

[CAMPYBOB]

"Where can I find the rule sets for starting in some Cat 5 racing."

Dave posted links to USAC/USCF.

Now...about that Wilier/Cervelo/Venge/Tarmac thing...

You're racing Cat. V. This is akin to entering a demolition derby...particularly if it is criterium format or a short circuit race. Or anything with a turn in the course. The only thing that could possibly be worse than Cat. V on equipment and square inches of hide would be to go mass start racing with tri-guys.

Save anything carbon/expensive you've got for training and for when the freds have been weeded out or at least until you've upgraded to IV.

Get yourself a Craigslist and put together some aluminum cheapie for race day with a fairly decent set of wheels and keep an eye out for...everyone else.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by oldbobcat .

Races are still won on "conventional" carbon frames, so I wouldn't overthink this.

The 2006 Tour de Greenwich was won on a steel Mondonico.

OP, if you race on an aero frame it may be beneficial. But IMO you will likely not notice a difference. You may be sacrificing comfort which is also important as a harsh ride saps energy, slowly but surely.

That said there is absolutely nothing wrong with getting the bike that wets your whistle, and lights yer loin.

PS. if your flexibility requires a number of spacers and/or flipping the stem (effectively turning your upper body into a parachute), any "aero" benefits (your free speed) will likely be negated. I'm not trying to poopoo on your parade. It's taken me decades to figure out that the easiest way to crush your training partners and club ride buddies... is secret training.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by David Gerchman .

so If you had to pick a specialized bike would you go with the venge or the tarmac?

I'm not sure, but if you send me the pictures of the next two ladies you are interested in dating I'll gladly pick one for you.

Personally if I absolutely had to have a Specialized I'd go for neither of the above and pick up the very limited, very expensive, and very exclusive S-Works Specialized Allez.

Why? Everybody and their sister is lining up at the start of the local race on a Tarmac. As lovely as the bike rides (I know this personally as I rode and raced an SL3 w/DA for a season), a Honda Accord owner probably has a similar feeling when pulling into a mall parking lot. And unless I am pushing 250+ watts for an hour, the Venge just tells women I have a tiny penis.

Just kidding, you will not go wrong with either bike. The above are my reasons, but as will be mentioned again and again (because it's high in merit), pick the one that fits you best, whose ride character you enjoy during the test, and whose appearance makes your heart flutter. I'm a big fan of the latter.

 

[alienator]

I'd ride them both and pick the one that I liked best in terms of: - Fit - Handling - Price - Aesthetics In no particular order except that fit is essential. Some folks buy an aero tubed bike like the Cervelo S5 specifically because they want one bike to use both in mass start racing and in time trials with a pair of clip on aero bars. Nothing wrong with that approach if you like the way the bike rides for the kind of riding most important to you. -Dave

Exactly. Those are the only factors that are worth considering.

 

[David Gerchman]

Originally Posted by danfoz .


I'm not sure, but if you send me the pictures of the next two ladies you are interested in dating I'll gladly pick one for you.

Personally if I absolutely had to have a Specialized I'd go for neither of the above and pick up the very limited, very expensive, and very exclusive S-Works Specialized Allez.

Why? Everybody and their sister is lining up at the start of the local race on a Tarmac. As lovely as the bike rides (I know this personally as I rode and raced an SL3 w/DA for a season), a Honda Accord owner probably has a similar feeling when pulling into a mall parking lot. And unless I am pushing 250+ watts for an hour, the Venge just tells women I have a tiny penis.

Just kidding, you will not go wrong with either bike. The above are my reasons, but as will be mentioned again and again (because it's high in merit), pick the one that fits you best, whose ride character you enjoy during the test, and whose appearance makes your heart flutter. I'm a big fan of the latter.


I am currently on a 2nd gen( Jim Merz framed) steel allez. I have 3t bars on it with a ritchey stem. It weighs out at 20.81 lbs at the moment. I should drop about 2 pounds when I change the rear tire and both wheelsets. the difference between the allez and the tarmac with sram rival components is 600 bucks. Now don't get me wrong I would love to grow out a broom mustache like kostner and ride my steel allez. But I kind of want something that wont kill me either.

 

[alienator]

I am currently on a 2nd gen( Jim Merz framed) steel allez. I have 3t bars on it with a ritchey stem. It weighs out at 20.81 lbs at the moment. I should drop about 2 pounds when I change the rear tire and both wheelsets. the difference between the allez and the tarmac with sram rival components is 600 bucks. Now don't get me wrong I would love to grow out a broom mustache like kostner and ride my steel allez. But I kind of want something that wont kill me either.

If you want a new bike, get it for that reason, but don't expect any significant improvement in performance from losing bike weight. Your 2lb bike wheel weight loss is only going to be a 0.7% change in bike/rider weight. I'd advise riding your bike longer to figure out exactly what you want in a new bike.

 

[danfoz]

Originally Posted by alienator .


If you want a new bike, get it for that reason, but don't expect any significant improvement in performance from losing bike weight. Your 2lb bike wheel weight loss is only going to be a 0.7% change in bike/rider weight. I'd advise riding your bike longer to figure out exactly what you want in a new bike.

If I look at my six seasons of racing, ironically my better results have come from my heavier rides, and my best result from my heaviest bike of the lot.

 

[alienator]

 If I look at my six seasons of racing, ironically my better results have come from my heavier rides, and my best result from my heaviest bike of the lot.

I think just being on the rivet and feeling good one day trumps anything a better bike could offer. I'd wager that nearly everyone of Sean Kelly's competitors rode bikes much stiffer than his Vitus FlexiFlyer. To win races the best investment is in the legs and head.

 

[David Gerchman]

This is going to sound funny, But I just want something that is modern. Like I want a rear wheel that I can go out and buy and not have to bastardize the frame to make it fit. I want something without a quill stem. I want something without downtube shifters. And a warranty would be nice. And having a correctly sized bike would be cool to. Also my bike was the top of its game...25 years ago. So it shouldnt take much to be a improvement.-David