Gyming to Improve Power - Part II

[whoawhoa]

Thanks. I took a look at your articles on the subject. And frankly, I found it very interesting.

But my position on that issue is one of listening carefully at cyclists testimonies. Ground studies

And very often, cyclists report doing weight resistance work during GP phase and part of the SP phase. I find it's not that much of a big deal. Very few do wr during the summer season.

How many of you guys do leg weight training during summer?

But just because they do it, doesn't mean it helped. It's human nature to feel something worked after spending lots of time/energy on it. I've also had people tell me that their bike is way faster after spending a couple hundred dollars to take off half a pound, do you believe that?

 

[whoawhoa]

Very intersting comment.

In the case of LA, he probably could have replaced that muscle mass during the General Preparation phase, after the hard season. And no one argues that resistance training during that phase is a good thing.

Where there seems to be disagreement, is this "war" of studies. On one side, those who "clearly" demonstrated that weight resist. training had a favorable impact on endurance, on cycling. And on the other side, those who saw no increase in endurance, after similar studies.

Both side have "a good" case, and no case at all at the end.

Why would he want to replace the muscle mass if it wasn't essential to cycling? I think we have to take everything that L.A. said about his training with a grain of salt. He also has always claimed Chris Carmichael to be his coach, and that probably isn't true, and hasn't been for some time.

That said, Armstrong's upper body has always looked much larger to me (mind you, these are pictures) in the early part of the year vs. in the tour.

Question for the experts: As muscle mass is added, does the body make more blood?

 

[SolarEnergy]

While there's little in here that hasn't been said before on the topic, I thought the format and presentation of this article was particularly compelling:
http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/misc/id4.html

Thanks a lot frenchyge. I really like these lines :

"So if increasing strength can at least in theory increase power, then why do studies show that this does not happen, even when untrained individuals are studied and it is maximal/short-term, not submaximal/sustained, power that is measured? The reason is that a very large percentage of the increase in strength that occurs with resistance training is due to neurological adaptations, not due to muscle hypertrophy. Furthermore, these neurological adaptations are highly specific to the joint angles and velocities used in training"

Why would he want to replace the muscle mass if it wasn't essential to cycling?

Because it is possible that he has lost too much muscle mass during his racing season. Can you imagine? Training so many months to increase the muscle quality & specificity, and loosing some of these quality fibers during racing season.

Question for the experts: As muscle mass is added, does the body make more blood?

I think so, but FWIW, the relationship between the two is not linear though.

But let the real experts answer it, maybe they can come up with details and numbers.

 

[davidbod]

This whole issue is very analogous to the pedal push down pull up thread. For resistance training if you were to isolate the issue and say for a given muscle's increase in power, does that improve endurance, well probably not as has been stated. So is that the end of the story, no. The key here is that there probably is no direct link between increasing power through resistance training at an individual muscle level and endurance increase, but there can be many indirect links for the overall system.

I find that by the end of the season what I can do in the gym with resistance training is quite low from where I left it in Jan or Feb. Even more important the difference in muscle strength between quads for press vs quads for extension and hamstring for curls is very much higher. I have found that this muscle imbalance leads to a drop in efficiency of my pedal stroke. Correcting this muscle imbalance and improving core strength through resistance training in the base building part of the season I find to be highly beneficial. I try to lift followed by an hour of cycling concentrating on pedal stroke efficiency. In the end what I get is more efficiency which gets more endurance indirectly.

If cycling were a pure endurance sport, then improving power would be meaningless, but that's not the case either. Improving power, even if it doesn't improve endurance is important during certain parts of a race. Resistance training also improves joint strength which will protect you from injury during the season.

Now for the pedal stroke thingy. Yes as above if you isolate the pedal stroke to see where maximum power is gained of coarse it is in the downstroke. So then should we not concentrate on the rest of the pedal stroke, as above no. Working on the non-power part of the pedal stroke creates efficiency that cannot be gained when concentrating solely on the power side.

For both of these issues it makes little sense to treat them in isolation. It makes a lot more sense to look at the whole system when determining what benefits will be gained.

 

[whoawhoa]

This whole issue is very analogous to the pedal push down pull up thread. For resistance training if you were to isolate the issue and say for a given muscle's increase in power, does that improve endurance, well probably not as has been stated. So is that the end of the story, no. The key here is that there probably is no direct link between increasing power through resistance training at an individual muscle level and endurance increase, but there can be many indirect links for the overall system.

I find that by the end of the season what I can do in the gym with resistance training is quite low from where I left it in Jan or Feb. Even more important the difference in muscle strength between quads for press vs quads for extension and hamstring for curls is very much higher. I have found that this muscle imbalance leads to a drop in efficiency of my pedal stroke. Correcting this muscle imbalance and improving core strength through resistance training in the base building part of the season I find to be highly beneficial. I try to lift followed by an hour of cycling concentrating on pedal stroke efficiency. In the end what I get is more efficiency which gets more endurance indirectly.

If cycling were a pure endurance sport, then improving power would be meaningless, but that's not the case either. Improving power, even if it doesn't improve endurance is important during certain parts of a race. Resistance training also improves joint strength which will protect you from injury during the season.

Now for the pedal stroke thingy. Yes as above if you isolate the pedal stroke to see where maximum power is gained of coarse it is in the downstroke. So then should we not concentrate on the rest of the pedal stroke, as above no. Working on the non-power part of the pedal stroke creates efficiency that cannot be gained when concentrating solely on the power side.

For both of these issues it makes little sense to treat them in isolation. It makes a lot more sense to look at the whole system when determining what benefits will be gained.

How are you defining power? I assume you don't mean wattage?

The reason you can't lift as much at the end of the season as you could at the end of your gym period is because you spent months of not lifting. Cycling doesn't involve high amounts of force, so you get weaker.

The rest of your post confuses me. I don't understand why you call cycling a power sport, and not a pure endurance sport. And you seem to think that weight lifting makes you a better cyclist. Can you clarify here?

 

[Thorman]

I have found that this muscle imbalance leads to a drop in efficiency of my pedal stroke.

How have you quantified this?

 

[n crowley]

Thanks a lot frenchyge. I really like these lines :

"So if increasing strength can at least in theory increase power, then why do studies show that this does not happen, even when untrained individuals are studied and it is maximal/short-term, not submaximal/sustained, power that is measured?




Because when applying this power to pedals your resistance is inactive and cannot respond with the same forceful and simultaneous increase. That is one of the major disadvantages of the mashing or stomping pedalling style which depends on the gravity effect of upper body weight and lower back strain for pedalling resistance. With the linear (Anquetil's) style during high geared pedalling, you are using active resistance which can rise and fall to meet the requirements of the power application.

 

[davidbod]

How are you defining power? I assume you don't mean wattage?

The reason you can't lift as much at the end of the season as you could at the end of your gym period is because you spent months of not lifting. Cycling doesn't involve high amounts of force, so you get weaker.

The rest of your post confuses me. I don't understand why you call cycling a power sport, and not a pure endurance sport. And you seem to think that weight lifting makes you a better cyclist. Can you clarify here?

Yes you could break power down into two basic arenas. Power delivered over longer periods of time, like minutes, tens of minutes or hours is what most cyclist think of and is endurance based (wattage). The other arena would be power deliverd over much shorter time periods from 0 to tens of seconds and is instantaneous power. I'm not saying cycling is a power sport in the instantaneous sense, but it is not a 100% pure endurance sport either.

Imagine when you jump out of the saddle to sprint or surge on a climb. The instantaneous power you deliver over the first few pedal strokes will make the difference between winning or not or dropping your competition or not. Basically any time you are under heavy acceleration you are using instantaneous power. This power comes from resistance training followed by on the bike adaptation.

 

[whoawhoa]

Yes you could break power down into two basic arenas. Power delivered over longer periods of time, like minutes, tens of minutes or hours is what most cyclist think of and is endurance based (wattage). The other arena would be power deliverd over much shorter time periods from 0 to tens of seconds and is instantaneous power. I'm not saying cycling is a power sport in the instantaneous sense, but it is not a 100% pure endurance sport either.

Imagine when you jump out of the saddle to sprint or surge on a climb. The instantaneous power you deliver over the first few pedal strokes will make the difference between winning or not or dropping your competition or not. Basically any time you are under heavy acceleration you are using instantaneous power. This power comes from resistance training followed by on the bike adaptation.

Yes, but full out sprint power is only important to pure track sprinters. Even for a road sprinter, the most important thing is to arrive to the line fresh, so that your sprint at the end of the race is close to what you can do when training. Weights will likely decrease ft, and increase weight, making it less likely for a sprinter to be in with a chance to even use his sprint.

Also, specific sprint training on the bike will increase sprint power without the negative effects of weight training.

Check out the recent thread on the power forum about Boonen's numbers. Notice that his threshold power is much more impressive than his sprint power.

 

[frenchyge]

Imagine when you jump out of the saddle to sprint or surge on a climb. The instantaneous power you deliver over the first few pedal strokes will make the difference between winning or not or dropping your competition or not. Basically any time you are under heavy acceleration you are using instantaneous power. This power comes from resistance training followed by on the bike adaptation.

The average person has sufficient strength to thrash around for a handful of pedal strokes on a maximal effort jump. No resistance training is needed for that, and it also produces very little effect. It's what you can do for the next minute or two that gets you away from the competition.

 

[Carrera]

Well, my own case is I just recovered from one of the most potent flu viruses I can recall in years. I was bed-ridden for 3 days and not capable of eating solid food.
It has taken approxomately 7 days to fully recover. I lost well over 14 pounds in weight. I now plan to only weight train for the next few days to build myself back up and feel a bit more healthy.
Then I will be free to resume cycle training over winter.
One more point: Prior to my illness, my cycling performance inexplicably dropped. I was getting a very high pulse rate on medium climbs and 4 days before I came down with the full monte, I found myself struggling against a f****g mountain bike rider - something unheard of for me!
I suspect a virus can lurk in your system and damage your performance for weeks till it breaks out and you finally get shot of it. I now feel so much better on the bike and I aren't even training at present.

Why would he want to replace the muscle mass if it wasn't essential to cycling? I think we have to take everything that L.A. said about his training with a grain of salt. He also has always claimed Chris Carmichael to be his coach, and that probably isn't true, and hasn't been for some time.

That said, Armstrong's upper body has always looked much larger to me (mind you, these are pictures) in the early part of the year vs. in the tour.

Question for the experts: As muscle mass is added, does the body make more blood?