gyming to improve power

[camdyson]

Interesting thread. Still hard to believe that all I need to do to keep up with a TDF breakaway doing 50+ kph is improve aerobic fitness - I can barely get my bike up to 50 kph let alone maintain it! Obviously fitness is the biggie, but surely having to exert 100% of my leg strength isn't as preferable as, say, 80% if I had more strength?

Also, how come those guys have legs that put mine to shame when they're simply aerobically fitter than me?! A sprinter pumping out 1300W (quote for Simon G.) surely has massive leg strength???

Cam

 

[velomanct]

1300w isn't much. (<5 sec) To output that power (for 1-5 sec), it takes about the strength level equivalent to deadlifting oh..........I'll say 130lbs, but probably less.

What is your pysiology? You're not an 100lb old lady are you? I remember hitting upper 30s (mph) in junior races. Even the 12-14 yr olds are hitting mid 30s in the sprint.

If you can't get up to 50kph on your road bike, gyming is still not the best way to work on it.

You just need to go out there and kill it, lay it all out. Attack everything, every hill, every headwind, chase slower cars, do whatever man. You aren't going to get fast unless you put yourself through pain.

Why do so many insist that resistence exercise will improve biking? Why not JUST BIKE?

 

[ed073]

MAP or Maximal Aerobic Power and VO2 Max are the keys to road racing, not your maximum squat weight for 6 reps. Muscle strength is directly relative to size, that's why Israel Folau has a couple of tree-trunks and Alberto Contador is perched on toothpicks.

You don't need strength to ride a bike (that's why 99% of people on the planet can do it) but you do need huge endurance and optimised aerobic capacity/lactate threshold for your genetics to do it at an elite level.

Bike racing is lungs and heart...not legs.

 

[frost]

Interesting thread. Still hard to believe that all I need to do to keep up with a TDF breakaway doing 50+ kph is improve aerobic fitness - I can barely get my bike up to 50 kph let alone maintain it! Obviously fitness is the biggie, but surely having to exert 100% of my leg strength isn't as preferable as, say, 80% if I had more strength?

As has been pointed out numerous times, the force needed in even highest peloton speeds is very moderate and basicly if you can stand up from a chair you have all the strength needed. Eg. @450w (~breakaway power at the top of the top) with cadence of 100rpm, needed torque is 43 N-m, which translates to ~25kg/55lbs. Hardly exerting 100% of your leg strength. The exerting part is to continue doing that 100 times per minute.

Also, how come those guys have legs that put mine to shame when they're simply aerobically fitter than me?! A sprinter pumping out 1300W (quote for Simon G.) surely has massive leg strength???
Cam

Sprinting indeed requires leg strength, still not anywhere near power lifting numbers. You may calculate from the example above that Simon needs roughly an equivalent of 75kg to pump out that 1300W. That 75kg is just a bit more than putting his whole weight on the pedal. Think about it!

 

[bubsy]

Interesting thread. Still hard to believe that all I need to do to keep up with a TDF breakaway doing 50+ kph is improve aerobic fitness - I can barely get my bike up to 50 kph let alone maintain it! Obviously fitness is the biggie, but surely having to exert 100% of my leg strength isn't as preferable as, say, 80% if I had more strength?Cam

In order to ride fast at some piont you need to "ride fast"
Baby steps my freind baby steps, Rome wasn't built in a day but it was eventually built.
FWIW l can't ride at 50km/hr either at least not more than a few sec's but l have no trouble in races mixing it with much more experianced and talanted riders than I.

l stopped gym training more than 5yrs ago, my legs have shrunk yet l continue to get faster, Fluke? l doubt it!

Keep at it buddy you will get faster trust me on this one.

 

[fergie]

Chris Boardman sat on 56km+ for an hour and allegedly can't leg press 40kg or crack 1000watts. For the hour record he averaged approx 430 watts so maximal strength doesn't come into it at all.

 

[camdyson]

As has been pointed out numerous times, the force needed in even highest peloton speeds is very moderate and basicly if you can stand up from a chair you have all the strength needed. Eg. @450w (~breakaway power at the top of the top) with cadence of 100rpm, needed torque is 43 N-m, which translates to ~25kg/55lbs. Hardly exerting 100% of your leg strength. The exerting part is to continue doing that 100 times per minute.




Sprinting indeed requires leg strength, still not anywhere near power lifting numbers. You may calculate from the example above that Simon needs roughly an equivalent of 75kg to pump out that 1300W. That 75kg is just a bit more than putting his whole weight on the pedal. Think about it!

O.k., I've thought about it. I think the confusion (mine, yours?) is in the detail - if you're talking about things like torque, then you have to be applying that 75kg ALL 360 DEGREES of the pedal strokes. Clearly that's a big ask, more likely it's the AVERAGE of the whole rotation that matters (unless your figures take that into account somehow?). So yes, even the 25kg qouted above probably IS using alot of leg strength when at the top/bottom of pedal arc....

No doubt the gurus know the answers, but I'm guessing the reality is WAY more than 75 kg on the downward pedal stroke, to average out the WAY less in the more horizonal stroke. Someone putting out huge wattages are pulling hard on the drops would be my guess, putting a lot more than body weight in their down strokes (yeah, yeah, and upstroke...).

Anyway, if gym don't help then so be it - I'm back out in the cold and wind tomorrow either way...

Happy riding,

Cam

 

[frost]

O.k., I've thought about it. I think the confusion (mine, yours?) is in the detail - if you're talking about things like torque, then you have to be applying that 75kg ALL 360 DEGREES of the pedal strokes. Clearly that's a big ask, more likely it's the AVERAGE of the whole rotation that matters (unless your figures take that into account somehow?). So yes, even the 25kg qouted above probably IS using alot of leg strength when at the top/bottom of pedal arc....

No doubt the gurus know the answers, but I'm guessing the reality is WAY more than 75 kg on the downward pedal stroke, to average out the WAY less in the more horizonal stroke. Someone putting out huge wattages are pulling hard on the drops would be my guess, putting a lot more than body weight in their down strokes (yeah, yeah, and upstroke...).

Anyway, if gym don't help then so be it - I'm back out in the cold and wind tomorrow either way...

Happy riding,

Cam

Yes, that is correct, the numbers are based on average and the peak force on the downstroke is definately more than the average, but before you fall back into desperation keep in mind two things:
1. you have two legs, so it doesn't mean you have to push down and pull up the whole 360 DEGREES only to average out the "dead spot" (you probably noticed this just to make sure)
2. 25kg doesn't mean squatting equivalent weight because in the pedal stroke you have your body weight, so even the peak force is definately more than 25kg it is most probably less than average persons body weight that they have to lift when standing up.

So keep up riding your bike !

 

[camdyson]

:d

 

[Piotr]

Chris Boardman sat on 56km+ for an hour and allegedly can't leg press 40kg or crack 1000watts. For the hour record he averaged approx 430 watts so maximal strength doesn't come into it at all.

I agree with your premise, but the part about Boardman not being able to leg press 40 kg is silly. If he needed to tie his shoe laces, who helped him up?

 

[fergie]

I agree with your premise, but the part about Boardman not being able to leg press 40 kg is silly. If he needed to tie his shoe laces, who helped him up?

Maybe it was a skill thing but having done the personal trainer thing I have seen a lot of guys who initially couldn't leg press two 20kg plates on a 45degree sled leg press machine.

I'm sure that had he needed to he would have been able to leg press far more but judging by the results and his coaches understanding of specificity he didn't need to.

 

[Meek One]

Maybe it was a skill thing but having done the personal trainer thing I have seen a lot of guys who initially couldn't leg press two 20kg plates on a 45degree sled leg press machine.

Sure, but the sled itself weighs something. Mine actually weighs 80kg with no plates on it.

 

[Enriss]

I keep hearing people talking about how cyclists have weak legs, and saying things like, "cyclists shouldn't squat" or "cyclists can't squat very much."
I think it's strange to hear these things from the cycling community, because what I hear from the strength training community is that:
"An interesting phenomenon has been noticed in the training of cyclists in the weight room. High-level cyclists, especially good timetrial riders and track cyclists, who have no previous resistance training experience are nonetheless very strong and tend to be able to squat relatively heavy weights even though untrained in the squat."
-Mark Rippetoe, Practical Programming

Now, I'm not really sure if there are numbers to back up that statement, but I think it suggests at the very least that there's some discussion to be had on the issue.

 

[velomanct]

Cyclists don't necessarily have weak legs, when you talk about them as a group compared to the overall population. I don't know who might have suggested that.

Compared to weight lifters, cyclists are weak, and can't squat much. Compared to the general population.... I doubt there is any significant difference amoung simular age groups.

There's always going to be outliers though.

Track cyclists who compete in the sprint events - that would be obvious why they might be stronger than the average person.

Time trialists - maybe that coach was refering to the cyclists ability to squat multiple reps - an indicator of musclular endurance which is critical in time trialing. The ability to produce force while buffering lactate acid, could show some translation amoung disciplines, when compared to non-athletes.

Nothing suprising there. Now, if the cyclists are doing one-rep max squats way above the non-cyclists, then I'd be realatively surprised.

 

[fergie]

I would be very surprised if any endurance trained cyclist had more strength than most average people let alone those who regularly trained with weights.

Unusual thing for a S&C Coach to be saying seeing it's normally them who are trying to convince us that more strength will help with cycling. If we naturally have that strength why go to the gym in the first place. All moot as cycling is not limited by strength.

 

[swampy1970]

Chris Boardman sat on 56km+ for an hour and allegedly can't leg press 40kg or crack 1000watts. For the hour record he averaged approx 430 watts so maximal strength doesn't come into it at all.

I see you're still reading the wrong papers. 442watts.

 

[Enriss]

I would be very surprised if any endurance trained cyclist had more strength than most average people let alone those who regularly trained with weights.

Unusual thing for a S&C Coach to be saying seeing it's normally them who are trying to convince us that more strength will help with cycling. If we naturally have that strength why go to the gym in the first place. All moot as cycling is not limited by strength.

Right, but it is limited by sustainable power output, right? I'm not completely convinced that if you take two athletes with a significant difference in the power clean, that the one with the heavier power clean won't be able to ride faster than the one with the lower weight power clean. The power clean is a great exercise for developing leg power, so I think it's certainly reasonable to expect the heavier weight power cleaner to have a higher peak power output, and maybe even a higher average power output, since 150W is a much larger percentage of 600W(25%) than it is of 1500W(10%) (which are the powers generated in a 56 kg power clean and a 141 kg power clean respectively, if you move the weight .65 m in .6 seconds).
So, I don't think it's ridiculous to think that weight training in the off season can increase your energy output, which will lead to increased speed in the racing season. At the very least, couldn't weight training be a good way to shake things up and push your body past your current limits? Maybe not even normal weight training, but something along the lines of crossfit's metcons?
Also, as far as cycling not being limited by strength, I think it's clear that if you develop the ability to do heavy squats, your body is responding to a stress that requires strength used in the squat, so why not train the squat and remove that limiting factor?

 

[swampy1970]

Right, but it is limited by sustainable power output, right? I'm not completely convinced that if you take two athletes with a significant difference in the power clean, that the one with the heavier power clean won't be able to ride faster than the one with the lower weight power clean. The power clean is a great exercise for developing leg power, so I think it's certainly reasonable to expect the heavier weight power cleaner to have a higher peak power output, and maybe even a higher average power output, since 150W is a much larger percentage of 600W(25%) than it is of 1500W(10%) (which are the powers generated in a 56 kg power clean and a 141 kg power clean respectively, if you move the weight .65 m in .6 seconds).
So, I don't think it's ridiculous to think that weight training in the off season can increase your energy output, which will lead to increased speed in the racing season. At the very least, couldn't weight training be a good way to shake things up and push your body past your current limits? Maybe not even normal weight training, but something along the lines of crossfit's metcons?
Also, as far as cycling not being limited by strength, I think it's clear that if you develop the ability to do heavy squats, your body is responding to a stress that requires strength used in the squat, so why not train the squat and remove that limiting factor?

Lets take that train of thought one step further on the bike. Go ride your bike and put it in 54x11. Leg press that at 85+rpm for 40 seconds. That's not too many leg presses but I'm guessing you'll be fcuked outa your head by the time 30 seconds comes around...

 

[frost]

Right, but it is limited by sustainable power output, right? I'm not completely convinced that if you take two athletes with a significant difference in the power clean, that the one with the heavier power clean won't be able to ride faster than the one with the lower weight power clean. The power clean is a great exercise for developing leg power, so I think it's certainly reasonable to expect the heavier weight power cleaner to have a higher peak power output, and maybe even a higher average power output, since 150W is a much larger percentage of 600W(25%) than it is of 1500W(10%) (which are the powers generated in a 56 kg power clean and a 141 kg power clean respectively, if you move the weight .65 m in .6 seconds).
So, I don't think it's ridiculous to think that weight training in the off season can increase your energy output, which will lead to increased speed in the racing season. At the very least, couldn't weight training be a good way to shake things up and push your body past your current limits? Maybe not even normal weight training, but something along the lines of crossfit's metcons?
Also, as far as cycling not being limited by strength, I think it's clear that if you develop the ability to do heavy squats, your body is responding to a stress that requires strength used in the squat, so why not train the squat and remove that limiting factor?

It's just that the peak power output doesn't have anything to do with the sustainable power. If anything, it is most often negative correlation. Track sprinters and BMX riders can put out amazing peak watts, way over 2kw, but they have very mediocre sustainable power output comparing to endurance cyclists. However good power clean is increasing your strength it doesn't change the fact that strength or peak power is not a limiting factor in sustained effort but the capacity of your heart and blood to carry the oxygen and the capacity of the muscles to utilize it. Gym work doesn't change that.

I know your way of thinking is very tempting and feels natural to anyone who's been doing gym training but it is just simply wrong.

 

[531Aussie]

I see you're still reading the wrong papers. 442watts.

Maybe you're the one reading the wrong stuff, coz it says 445w here (for his 56.375km record):

Bike Cult Book: Online Resource: World Hour Records