Indurain's doctor says TDF too hard!

[Flyer]

And you are as sad, desperate and ill informed as ever.

Keep up the good work on exposing all the nefarious doings of these evil pro athletes that you have so much in depth knowledge of and their dark plot to "SILENCE" the supposed witnesses (as if they are the mob or something). It's a fascinating read. Truly enlightening.

It's not often I get a peek into the mind of a person who has zero original thought and can only parrot the conspiracy theorists that populate this world such as yourself (by the way, do you do anything but "cut and paste" articles?)

Everyone is on dope but you, that's why you have never been (or will ever be) a winner in life...now you know the truth!

Now please excuse me, I have a bag of EPO to ingest so I can continue my dominance over the likes of you.

Glad to have you on record as pro-doping and a "jealous defender of lying" and wholly unconcerned for the practices of doping of 16 & 17 year old kids.

You are a piece of work.

You offer a great explanation of why lying is so easy to do.

And drill it into your thick head: There is no conspiracy, just active "business as usual within the sports community". Maybe bigfoot lives in your state.

Enjoy your Madman's Mix--it was named accurately.

 

[Flyer]

Our sport has zero credibility with the greater public.

I do some work at Federation level and the perception is that one cannot compete even at the lower professional levels with out resorting to drugs.
That is the feedback that I am getting when I talk to coaches and cyclists
competing at international leve.

Race speed is increasing, yet everyone is now supposed to be clean unlike their tarnished colleagues in the 1990's !!!!!!!
The nay sayers will always come back with the better technology, specialisation, better training, excuses.

I think this sport is in deep denial, Flyer.

All of sport today I am afraid.

It is especially frustrating to have the potential for secret drugs and/or methods that only selected athletes receive.

No way to handicap a rider anymore---it seems to be easier to handicap the trainer/drug company sponsor.

With naysayers such as Beastt, the dopers are in full control of this sporting business model.

Next week we will have 6 MLB players in hot seats with a US Senate Sub-committee hearing on steroid use in Baseball. Let us see whether Mark McGwire takes his 5th amendment right to refuse to answer question which might incriminate (or embarrass his sponsors). That will be fun.

We can also see how aggressively the French Police will question Lance re: his knowledge of doping. Lance's attorneys have already sent a letter to the French Police Unit re: their client's schedule for their questioning. No TDF to hide behind at this point in the season.

 

[mjolnir2k]

Glad to have you on record as pro-doping and a "jealous defender of lying" and wholly unconcerned for the practices of doping of 16 & 17 year old kids.

You are a piece of work.

You offer a great explanation of why lying is so easy to do.

And drill it into your thick head: There is no conspiracy, just active "business as usual within the sports community". Maybe bigfoot lives in your state.

Enjoy your Madman's Mix--it was named accurately.

You might want to spend a minute perusing the definition of "sarcasm", although how you could find time to do so with your all consuming pursuit of the "DOPERS" I have no idea.

If there is no conspiracy then you have lost your great body of work to date, because it's ALL conspiracy theory at this point.

Somehow I fail to believe every Jr. rider has switched to doping (not to mention every Pro)...but I guess that's the faith I have in humanity vs. the desire you have to prove that cycling is dirty.

Continue to preach your invectives in the name of the "kids", but be aware that we all see it for what it really is...your desire to tear down Lance.

 

[Flyer]

You might want to spend a minute perusing the definition of "sarcasm",


Mjolnir is really a mindless ranter. No sarcasm indended, btw.

The body of his work is:

1) name calling to anyone who suspects Lance Armstrong of using trauma and anemia and blood boosting drugs---beyond his legal theraputic exemption, versus the expression of opinion as to why Armstrong's body is somehow unlike his fellow drugged competitors---how Millar EPO-eprex can not defeat Lance's blood chemistry?

2) creating conspiracy theories when none have been alleged. A conspiracy is not required when standard business practices have historically allow for doping.

3) finding comedy in tragedy

4) finding sadness amongst inescapeable logic

5) failing to address any of the numerous and suspicious Lance Armstrong doping associations and bovine plasma (Actovegin) or insulin admissions.

6) Insofar as Lance's chief performance coach---a now legally convicted doper doctor---Mjolnir remains deathly silent.

7) calling people losers--when he knows less about that than he does about blood doping and steroids.

For such a blowhard, namecalling coward--he certainly has no contribution to these post. He has never addressed why the TDF is too difficult w/o drugs or why both athletes, doctors and UCI federation chief all disagree with his childlike fancy of cycling.

His defense of Lance Armstrong is nonexistent--and instead he asserts "jealous lies".

Remember, where there is smoke---it might just be a conspiracy to light a fire.

http://outside.away.com/magazine/0799/9907tour.html

 

[mjolnir2k]

Mjolnir is really a mindless ranter. No sarcasm indended, btw.

The body of his work is:

1) name calling to anyone who suspects Lance Armstrong of using trauma and anemia and blood boosting drugs---beyond his legal theraputic exemption, versus the expression of opinion as to why Armstrong's body is somehow unlike his fellow drugged competitors---how Millar EPO-eprex can not defeat Lance's blood chemistry?

Hmm, you seem to be the person most intent on name calling. You pass the label of "Doper" on to any person you see fit regardless of any evidence to support this assertion.

2) creating conspiracy theories when none have been alleged. A conspiracy is not required when standard business practices have historically allow for doping.

"Standard business practice"? Again, you act as if you have inside knowledge of life as a pro racer. You have NO real idea of what Lance does or does not do to prepare to race. Instead you label him a doper because you have "evidence" regarding doping in the peleton and persons that know Lance have been accused or confirmed as dopers. It's all still circumstantial.

3) finding comedy in tragedy

The comedy is your obsession with this topic and LA, and the tragedy is that you have no original thought nor have ever suggested a remedy. WADA and the UCI both have resolutions and consequencies designed to penalize any rider who tests positive.

4) finding sadness amongst inescapeable logic

You have no "Inescapable logic" save that you are myopic and boring.

5) failing to address any of the numerous and suspicious Lance Armstrong doping associations and bovine plasma (Actovegin) or insulin admissions.

Because unlike you, I don't claim to have any inside knowledge. I have never met Mr. Armstrong, nor any of his associates. I don't know his doctors or his detailed medical history. What I do know is that he has been a professional cyclist for 12 years or more, has submitted to probably over a thousand blood tests (and subjected to a rabid French investigation) and has yet to test for anything other than a corticoid used for treating saddle sores. I think he is an honorable man, so why shouldn't I take him at his word. Isn't this country built on the notion of "innocent until PROVEN guilty. Hell, if everyone suspected of wrongdoing were automatically sanctioned there would be a LOT of innocent people in jail.

6) Insofar as Lance's chief performance coach---a now legally convicted doper doctor---Mjolnir remains deathly silent.

"Deathly silent"...Mwahahaha..do you realize how ignorant you sound when you try to dramaticize this? How should I respond? As I indicated above I am honest enough to admit I have no inside info (unlike you).

7) calling people losers--when he knows less about that than he does about blood doping and steroids.

You got me...you definitely know more than me about being a loser. Score 1 for you!
Your apparent life's work is to tarnish the image of a man that you have never met, has done nothing to you save be better at a sport than you, and you do so with re-treaded articles from every nook and cranny on the net.

For such a blowhard, namecalling coward--he certainly has no contribution to these post. He has never addressed why the TDF is too difficult w/o drugs or why both athletes, doctors and UCI federation chief all disagree with his childlike fancy of cycling.

Again, for someone who likes to spend his time calling people he doen't even know "DOPERS", you seem a bit sensative when the spotlight is turned on you and your sad obsession. Last I checked the UCI still sanctioned the TdF. I would suspect if they KNEW that it was impossible to complete without drugs they might do something about that.

His defense of Lance Armstrong is nonexistent--and instead he asserts "jealous lies".

I have no need to defend Mr. Armstrong, he has done nothing wrong. Truth hurts does it?

Remember, where there is smoke---it might just be a conspiracy to light a fire.

And a wise man once said better to keep your mouth closed and be suspected a fool, than to open it and confirm the suspicion. Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

http://outside.away.com/magazine/0799/9907tour.html

Gee, thanks for a link to where you get all of your thoughts from. Now I can just go right to the source. You should check into the plagarism laws to make sure you're not violating copyrights.

 

[Flyer]

Innocent until proven guilty?

Aw yes, that concept is already fully in effect--so as to allow lying, cheating drug addicted athletes and their corporate sponsors, the financial opportunity to transact business in the absence of a trial or private legal settlement. This concept should render drug testing moot. No real need for it if we presume athletes do not lie and dope. Why the conflict?

In this "status quo" process many sporting fans are tricked---and deceived into believing commercial themes of Corinthian games. The truth is denied.

Insofar as this post is concerned: That legal/financial protection concept is as relevant as the massive circumstantial evidence indicating fraud in sport.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is wholly conflicted with performance drug practice. Hence, the very existence of WADA and drug testing. These steps, while inadequate, at least point out the conflict re: "innocence or guilt presumptions"

The concept of "innocence" no longer applies to sport, only what you can sell the public in order to protect business.

btw: The UCI did not agree to the WADA rules, Code of Conduct and list of banned substances until AFTER Lance's TDF victory #6. Why wait until the IOC gave the UCI an ultimatum. Just like American MLB.

Postpone, denial, defer, and create unenforcable rules and minor penalties where none existed before.

Everyone wants a "black box" or a private license to cheat/skim w/o detection. Especially, when billions are at stake.

Take your complaint to Dear Abby, and let free speech prevail on this forum.

You name calling doping coverup patsy.

And we already had this discussion with Beastt.

 

[mjolnir2k]

Take your complaint to Dear Abby, and let free speech prevail on this forum.

You name calling doping coverup patsy.

I am letting free speech prevail, as I am allowed to voice my opinion even if it contradicts yours. I have a right to point out that your main goal is to tarnish the reputation of Lance Armstrong. I also have a right to dispute your mythical evidence and heresay. I further have the right to accurately point out that you have an agenda that has nothing to do with the welfare of "kids".

You have proven yourself to be unable to seperate fact from fiction (or is it wishful thinking on your part) so I feel obliged to help you. Perhaps you will someday be able to form a coherent thought by yourself without the musings of the French press, Embittered former masseurs or long in the tooth, jealous former American TdF winners. Until that day arrives I am happy to continue to dispel your hatred and contradict your claims.

As for the name calling, review what you just wrote (see above) and ask yourself who's the 10 year old?

Now go back to searching the medical pages on the web to post more threads about stuff you don't understand and have no first hand knowledge of.

Cheers!

 

[Flyer]

I am letting free speech prevail, as I am allowed to voice my opinion even if it contradicts yours. I have a right to point out that your main goal is to tarnish the reputation of Lance Armstrong. I also have a right to dispute your mythical evidence and heresay. I further have the right to accurately point out that you have an agenda that has nothing to do with the welfare of "kids".

You have proven yourself to be unable to seperate fact from fiction (or is it wishful thinking on your part) so I feel obliged to help you. Perhaps you will someday be able to form a coherent thought by yourself without the musings of the French press, Embittered former masseurs or long in the tooth, jealous former American TdF winners. Until that day arrives I am happy to continue to dispel your hatred and contradict your claims.

As for the name calling, review what you just wrote (see above) and ask yourself who's the 10 year old?

Now go back to searching the medical pages on the web to post more threads about stuff you don't understand and have no first hand knowledge of.

Cheers!

OK Pedophile labeler.

It is astounding that given your admission of ignorance (no knowledge on doping) that you presume to be an authority on the subject. (denial of its existence--and denial of your hero Lance's own personal admissions of sythetic cow plasma, insulin and corticosteroids)

You ought learn from others--who do understand the subject matter. Or just begin your meds earlier in the day.

Your "jealous liar, liar pants on fire" assertions do not square with the doping practices of today's pro athletes.

Enjoy your Congressional hearings re: steroids in Baseball. The players in that sport are 30 years behind Lance and his peers with regard to sports medicines.

The agenda is: 1) Is Lance doping?
and 2) let's seek a full disclosure of the facts---not deny the existence and promote a quest for ignorance and cover-up.

 

[snyper0311]

Flyer, Remember in 99' when Lance was actually under investigation for doping? What happend/what was the outcome of the UCI's investigation? No conviction! I agree that there is a big problem in the sport of cycling. Is it really as bad as you make it out to be? One of the "Good Guys", Tyler H., is now under investigation for doping. But if we go off the UCI's doping standards, no medication what so ever could be taken. It's so strict, riders cant take anything to help with bee stings or the common cold because it might give them an unfair advantage. So, I might tend to agree with you, everyone in the pro ranks is on some kind of banned substance.

 

[wolfix]

In the world of cycling with so much to win, a person must question the motives of people that try to bring others down . It is easy to understand why Lance is questioned . But , after giving this much thought, I think a person must take into account how strong Lance was when he was young. He was tearing up the tri world fresh out of high school . I believe that some athletes are simply more gifted, more driven , and expect success....... Lance is a driven man....... He trains harder and works at winning ...... He wants to dominate his competition...... [ Kind of reminds us of two others.... The Cannibal & the Badger ] Also , the French would love to topple Lance. Are they part of the "Protect Lance" conspirecy???? Doubtful.
Lance and Drugs are a great tabloid story. But until proof comes down from the testing people, maybe we should sit back and enjoy watching what may be the greatest Tour de France rider the race has ever had.

 

[Flyer]

In the world of cycling with so much to win, a person must question the motives of people that try to bring others down . It is easy to understand why Lance is questioned . But , after giving this much thought, I think a person must take into account how strong Lance was when he was young. He was tearing up the tri world fresh out of high school . I believe that some athletes are simply more gifted, more driven , and expect success....... Lance is a driven man....... He trains harder and works at winning ...... He wants to dominate his competition...... [ Kind of reminds us of two others.... The Cannibal & the Badger ] Also , the French would love to topple Lance. Are they part of the "Protect Lance" conspirecy???? Doubtful.
Lance and Drugs are a great tabloid story. But until proof comes down from the testing people, maybe we should sit back and enjoy watching what may be the greatest Tour de France rider the race has ever had.

TDF particiapants & drugs are a great factual story. No longer covered by Tabloids, now the direct channel outlets.

Again, the TDF is not a Corinthean Contest of fair play. It is a advertising business model. Fans of sport do not control its outcome. It is a black box.

The French people do not control the TDF, nor do the doping controlers, businessmen do.

When was the last time a TDF leader was DQed for doping?

I think you will have to go back a long way, when the guy that defeated Bernard Hinalt at Alp D'Huez was found to have a rubber tube inside of his long-sleeve jersey. He couldn't stop sweating in that warm jersey and apparently made it painingful easy to spot his technical problems with his (phony urine sample).

Or we can just await another premature death.

Today we lost retired Dutch & Raleigh Pro, Bert Pronk, age 54 to cancer. He had been battling it for 3 years.

I find it telling to have lost Bert Pronk just a few months after his former Raleigh teammate, Gerrie Kneteman died at age 53, due to heart failure.

Miguel Indurain, Marco Pantani & Lance are all from the very same medical TDF society.

 

[wolfix]

"Bert Pronk & Gerrie Kneteman"..... I have a Ti-Raleigh World Championship jersey of Knetemans hanging above my desk......
I will agree with you about cycling being a moving billboard. And yes, the main stream press has taken itself down to the level of tabloids in reporting the news.... People love to hear gossip.......
My point though , and my reason to believe Lance is clean......
* Some people are driven by an unknown desire to win. When I was young, I followed a career of another driven athlete named Dan Gable. In high school, college , and the Olympics he dominated wrestling like no one ever has. I did not know the man personally , but I did have friends and coaches who did. Gable was a driven man. And he carried this driven desire to win at the coaching level. His record speaks for itself. Drugs were not the reason for Gable's success.
When Greg Lemond was a young rider , [ pre-Europe] I participated in a few races where he was present . [ I was in a different catogory ] There was something about him that seperated him from other riders.....
Lance ....... We know he has the physical gifts to be one of the best. He has proven this since the age of 16. We know that he targets only the TDF.... Something that is important to him and his sponsors. He is not the 1 st to do this . Cycling has evolved into what we see today because of the sponsors desire to see their name on the podium all year. So they put together teams that can do this........
I believe that drugs "are" through-out the sport. And we must police it well . But not all cyclists are dirty. Some are gifted.
As fans, we must not allow ourselves to get a "mob mentality" and attack all the riders. And I do not believe that we must "clean the sport up because of the children." We want the sport clean because we want to know that the rider we follow is dedicated to his training , not his doctor.

 

[9psi]

It's actually a conspiracy by Shimano and Campagnolo. The force the pro peloton to use drugs to go quicker so we chumps all want Dura-Ace and Carbon Record components in the belief that that is what makes them so much faster.

I see numerous other component manufacturers are getting in on it as well (Mavic FSA etc etc)

 

[limerickman]

It is easy to understand why Lance is questioned . But , after giving this much thought, I think a person must take into account how strong Lance was when he was young. He was tearing up the tri world fresh out of high school . I believe that some athletes are simply more gifted, more driven , and expect success....... Lance is a driven man....... He trains harder and works at winning ...... He wants to dominate his competition...... [ Kind of reminds us of two others.... The Cannibal & the Badger ]

So strong and dedicated that he somehow failed to impress as a stage rider
between 1992-1996.
So strong and driven that he failed to finish three out of four TDF starts.

"He trains harder and works at winning" - what page of his book are you quoting from ?
Pros train hard - bloody hard - and they don't attempt to justify their performances by CLAIMING to train harder than their opponents, and denying their use of performance enhancing drugs, either.

..... [ Kind of reminds us of two others.... The Cannibal & the Badger ]
[/font]

Yep, he's really like the Badger and Merckx.
Oh wait a minute, what about the fact that Hinault and Merckx palmares dwarf Lance Armstrong's ?
Bit inconvenient that small business of compartive palmares, eh ?

Also , the French would love to topple Lance. Are they part of the "Protect Lance" conspirecy???? Doubtful.

[/font]

The French don't have anything against Lance Armstrong.
I'll put this to you in more parochial terms, to simplify it for ya - you get a good baseball player from say, New Jersey.
He's the bees knees.
Then some guy comes along from say, Albany, and replaces him.
You'd expect that rivalry to be intense, neighbouring states both, with each
having an individual going for the bees knees title, yeah ?
Well that's how you'd have expected the French to react to Indurain or Merckx (both from countries bordering France and both dominating the French national race).
But, quel surprise, not a word of ridicule.
Not a word of acrimony toward either Miguel or Eddy.
The French respected them because they were good winners, sportsmen,
men who had progressed through the sport and were deemed honest.
Qualities sadly lacking in Armstrong.

Can't remember Indurain being urinated on while climbing Alp D'Huez or Merckx being verbally abused and being called a cheat when racing.

we should sit back and enjoy watching what may be the greatest Tour de France rider the race has ever had.
[/font]

Good point.
Bromley Video have released the Eddy Merckx story on video and DVD.
The greatest TDF rider ever.
I'll take your advice and buy it.

 

[mjolnir2k]

So strong and dedicated that he somehow failed to impress as a stage rider
between 1992-1996.
So strong and driven that he failed to finish three out of four TDF starts.

"He trains harder and works at winning" - what page of his book are you quoting from ?
Pros train hard - bloody hard - and they don't attempt to justify their performances by CLAIMING to train harder than their opponents, and denying their use of performance enhancing drugs, either.



Yep, he's really like the Badger and Merckx.
Oh wait a minute, what about the fact that Hinault and Merckx palmares dwarf Lance Armstrong's ?
Bit inconvenient that small business of compartive palmares, eh ?



The French don't have anything against Lance Armstrong.
I'll put this to you in more parochial terms, to simplify it for ya - you get a good baseball player from say, New Jersey.
He's the bees knees.
Then some guy comes along from say, Albany, and replaces him.
You'd expect that rivalry to be intense, neighbouring states both, with each
having an individual going for the bees knees title, yeah ?
Well that's how you'd have expected the French to react to Indurain or Merckx (both from countries bordering France and both dominating the French national race).
But, quel surprise, not a word of ridicule.
Not a word of acrimony toward either Miguel or Eddy.
The French respected them because they were good winners, sportsmen,
men who had progressed through the sport and were deemed honest.
Qualities sadly lacking in Armstrong.

Can't remember Indurain being urinated on while climbing Alp D'Huez or Merckx being verbally abused and being called a cheat when racing.





Good point.
Bromley Video have released the Eddy Merckx story on video and DVD.
The greatest TDF rider ever.
I'll take your advice and buy it.

Again you are wrong..but that's par for the course with you and Flyer (are you actually the same person...you seem to have no discernable differences in bitterness of your posts)

The fact is that not all pro's train "Bloody hard". In fact some of these gifted athletes take their gift for granted and train the bare minimum. The fact is that it IS possible for an individual to train harder than his competitors and that individual can demonstrate a singular focus that is unrivaled by his adversaries.

Jan Ulrich is often termed the "most physically talented" cyclist of this era..yet he has managed just a single tour win (one in which LA did not ride). Why is this? Perhaps the fact that he persistantly shows up to the greatest cycling race of the 21st century unfit and out of shape tells the tale..Hmmmm? Perhaps it is possible that LA justs wants it more? Perhaps he DOES train harder, study the stages longer and devises a better game plan to win. Hasn't he demonstrated that 6 consecutive years now.

Perhaps LA's palmares isn't as extensive as Merckx, but his competition is far greater, stronger and more capable than those whom Merckx competed against. Such is the evolution of ALL sports. (insert your inevitable drug reference here). LA of 1999 to 2003 would hand Merckx in his prime his ass in the TdF. Maybe Merckx would feel better after he won another GP or Giro..but as for the TdF, Lance holds the record! (and it even pains me to have to take such a stand as I view Merckx to be the best complete rider of all time)

LA has a focus..it is the TdF. His theory is and has been to let the scraps (Giro, Vuelta, LBL, P-N, etc) go to the other riders...

I recognize that it's impossible for you and your twin (Flyer) to give LA any credit for his efforts..but you can't deny the simple fact that NO rider will ever beat LA's mark at the TdF...Ever!

 

[Flyer]

"Bert Pronk & Gerrie Kneteman"..... I have a Ti-Raleigh World Championship jersey of Knetemans hanging above my desk......
I will agree with you about cycling being a moving billboard. And yes, the main stream press has taken itself down to the level of tabloids in reporting the news.... People love to hear gossip.......
My point though , and my reason to believe Lance is clean......
* Some people are driven by an unknown desire to win. When I was young, I followed a career of another driven athlete named Dan Gable. In high school, college , and the Olympics he dominated wrestling like no one ever has. I did not know the man personally , but I did have friends and coaches who did. Gable was a driven man. And he carried this driven desire to win at the coaching level. His record speaks for itself. Drugs were not the reason for Gable's success.
When Greg Lemond was a young rider , [ pre-Europe] I participated in a few races where he was present . [ I was in a different catogory ] There was something about him that seperated him from other riders.....
Lance ....... We know he has the physical gifts to be one of the best. He has proven this since the age of 16. We know that he targets only the TDF.... Something that is important to him and his sponsors. He is not the 1 st to do this . Cycling has evolved into what we see today because of the sponsors desire to see their name on the podium all year. So they put together teams that can do this........
I believe that drugs "are" through-out the sport. And we must police it well . But not all cyclists are dirty. Some are gifted.
As fans, we must not allow ourselves to get a "mob mentality" and attack all the riders. And I do not believe that we must "clean the sport up because of the children." We want the sport clean because we want to know that the rider we follow is dedicated to his training , not his doctor.

Great points and I agree with most of them too.

But we are not policing it well, not even close. Many gifted athletes are doped to the gills. Many lesser gifted athlete may dope as well. That way they can all eat dinner together. Another shared experience.

Sadly, the mob is not in charge, corporate sponsors are. And they are lying about doping, hoping the public will believe in their scripts and not the facts.

But it is the kids that are truly at risk---it is the U-23 athletes who are pressured to dope---JUST AS LANCE was when he was only 17 years old. (1989)

You cannot ignore the fact that his four junior teammates (ages 17) all took injections in 1990. That was the "A" team. Lance had not even won a championship yet---his partner Greg Strock had already won three!

What about these junior athletes who are forced/pressured by adults (National Coaches were Rene Wenzel & Chris Charmichael, trainer was Agnus Fraser) then get deathly sick--like Lance, Greg Strock & Erich Kaiter? That's 3 of 5 "A list" riders. 60%.

This ain't gossip.

All we hear about is Lance--because he recovered and went on to win the TDF 6 times!

Greg & Erich are still coping with fatigue and chronic illness. Are they losers becasue they didn't improve?
How come a guy tough enough to win three Junior Nationals cannot heal his immune system?

Is Lance a winner--or just a lucky medical experiment?

The best way to police sport is by a critical eye. If it takes a mob of eyeballs--then so be it.

When Lance's podium mates are found with trauma and anemia drugs---it is not unreasonable to assume the entire podium is doped.

Rumsas, Pantani, Virenque, Zulle, all used EPO, corticosteroids, stimulants, vasodilators, growth hormones, insulin and anabolic steroids too.

No way, talent or singleminded focus can out-perform other talented--but boosted athletes. No way.

We need even more scrutiny of all athletes.

 

[Flyer]

)

The fact is that not all pro's train "Bloody hard".

Wow! to coin a mjolnir phrase: "You can possibly know this"


Perhaps LA's palmares isn't as extensive as Merkcx, but his competition is far greater, stronger and more capable than those whom Merkcx competed against. Such is the evolution of ALL sports.

That is yet another bold and smart ass remark!


I think Lance has superior drugs and medical protocols than does Jan Ulrich and that Michele Ferrari has squarely defeated his medical competitor, doping doctor, Luigi Cecchini. (also Lance doesn't share his doctor with his competition) (another jealous refence to winning at all costs)

Ferrari's Grand Tour winning clients include Berzin, Rominger, Moser (assisted). That's a lot of winning.

Cecchini's winning clients were/are Tyler Hamilton, Jan Ulrich, Bjarne Riis, Pascal Richard.

It ain't about Lance, rather it is about drugs, methods and witchcraft brewing doctors that dominate stage racing and trauma recovery performances.

 

[wolfix]

So strong and dedicated that he somehow failed to impress as a stage rider
between 1992-1996.
So strong and driven that he failed to finish three out of four TDF starts.

"


Yep, he's really like the Badger and Merckx.
Oh wait a minute, what about the fact that Hinault and Merckx palmares dwarf Lance Armstrong's ?
Bit inconvenient that small business of compartive palmares, eh ?



The French respected them because they were good winners, sportsmen,
men who had progressed through the sport and were deemed honest.
Qualities sadly lacking in Armstrong.

Can't remember Indurain being urinated on while climbing Alp D'Huez or Merckx being verbally abused and being called a cheat when racing.




Wasn't Eddy suspended for doping ????? Also , Eddy made a statement that he feels that Lance is the greatest Tour riderr ever....... But , all these riders are great and it is impossible to try and argue which one was the '"Greatest."' What I tried to point out was that Lance,Eddy, And Bernard all were dominating, focused athletes.The mental part of sport......

Actually , Eddy & Hinaults palmares are not as good as Lances as far as the Tour de France goes..... And that is Lance's objective.... He is an American , and in America the tour is what is important. it was also the most important thing to Greg LeMond too......
And as far as the ones on this forum who want to make the arguement that "a true cycling fan understands that there are many more races then the "Tour De France", I'll listen...... But he truth of it is that in america we are so deprieved of coverage and history of euro racing that we concentrate on our local riders .

Was Lance strong as a young rider.....?????? I got to see him wear a world's jersey in Minneapolis in the fall of 1993... And somehow I do not think he bought it off E-Bay...... But maybe....
But ..... The original arguement that Flyer is trying to make is that it's the "Doc de France"....... Maybe Trek should selling medical equipment.....

 

[Flyer]

Wasn't Eddy suspended for doping ????? Also , Eddy made a statement that he feels that Lance is the greatest Tour riderr ever....... But , all these riders are great and it is impossible to try and argue which one was the '"Greatest."' What I tried to point out was that Lance,Eddy, And Bernard all were dominating, focused athletes.The mental part of sport......

Actually , Eddy & Hinaults palmares are not as good as Lances as far as the Tour de France goes..... And that is Lance's objective.... He is an American , and in America the tour is what is important. it was also the most important thing to Greg LeMond too......
And as far as the ones on this forum who want to make the arguement that "a true cycling fan understands that there are many more races then the "Tour De France", I'll listen...... But he truth of it is that in america we are so deprieved of coverage and history of euro racing that we concentrate on our local riders .

Was Lance strong as a young rider.....?????? I got to see him wear a world's jersey in Minneapolis in the fall of 1993... And somehow I do not think he bought it off E-Bay...... But maybe....
But ..... The original arguement that Flyer is trying to make is that it's the "Doc de France"....... Maybe Trek should selling medical equipment.....

Wolfix:

You are quite correct about Eddie Merkx failing three (3) dope controls. The Giro whereupon he was DQed, Tour of Lombardy. These were explained away as Italian Conspiracies.

But then, Merkx went positive in the Tour of Flanders, in his own backyard. Ouch, those jealous Italians.

All Eddie's test failure were amphetamines (three different brands)

So, if Eddie needed help--so too should Lance.

Insofar as Lance's convicted doctor, Eddie referred both Lance and his son Axel to Michele Ferrari.

More success with Lance---post his cancer. Initially, thing went well February to July 1996---then the sustainable power fell off and the female hCG hormones were off the chart for Lance by August 1996.

Hmmmmmm? A normal doctor should have caught the abnormal presence of hCG in May or June---why so late? Unless......

Perhaps Ferrari injected Lance with both Clomid and hCG to boost oral supplemented testosterone and help pass the T/E tests? Maintain a 6:1 ratio.

btw: 2.5:1 is normal, but 6:1 is allowed, so 6:1 is what athletes prefer--as well as a boosted base level.

Ferrari was made to explain in court why he gave Prozac pills to Axel Merkx as well as DHEA.

These athletes are pure doping Guinea Pigs, and Lance is the one who tragets the month of July better than the others. His medical program is the best for the month of July. from 1999 to present, Ferrari is the Maestro!

To bad Lance fired him?-----------NOT.

 

[limerickman]

The fact is that not all pro's train "Bloody hard". In fact some of these gifted athletes take their gift for granted and train the bare minimum. The fact is that it IS possible for an individual to train harder than his competitors and that individual can demonstrate a singular focus that is unrivaled by his adversaries.

Jan Ulrich is often termed the "most physically talented" cyclist of this era..yet he has managed just a single tour win (one in which LA did not ride). Why is this? Perhaps the fact that he persistantly shows up to the greatest cycling race of the 21st century unfit and out of shape tells the tale..Hmmmm?

How the **** do you KNOW that Jan Ullrich turns up persistently unfit for the TDF ?
Have you ever been at Le Grand Depart ?
Have you ?

I've been at two - where Jan Ullrich turned up and he didn't look unfit to me.
I was at the Grand Depart in Dublin in 1998 and Ullrich looked fit - as fit as everyone else there.
He was beaten by Pantani that year.

So stop spinning the Lance Armstrong lie about people not training hard and the rest of the bilge he comes out with.
We've read the book - we've read Armstrong's revisionist views and we don't chose to believe it.
Pedal your urban myths elsewhere.
Or better still get to the Grand Depart for yourself and see the how wrong Lance Armstrong's views actually are.

Perhaps LA's palmares isn't as extensive as Merckx, but his competition is far greater, stronger and more capable than those whom Merckx competed against. Such is the evolution of ALL sports. (insert your inevitable drug reference here). LA of 1999 to 2003 would hand Merckx in his prime his ass in the TdF. Maybe Merckx would feel better after he won another GP or Giro..but as for the TdF, Lance holds the record! (and it even pains me to have to take such a stand as I view Merckx to be the best complete rider of all time)

LA has a focus..it is the TdF. His theory is and has been to let the scraps (Giro, Vuelta, LBL, P-N, etc) go to the other riders...

I recognize that it's impossible for you and your twin (Flyer) to give LA any credit for his efforts..but you can't deny the simple fact that NO rider will ever beat LA's mark at the TdF...Ever!

There's no perhaps about it - Merckx palmares dwarfs Armstrongs.
That is a fact - and there's no amout of revisionism that can deny that.

Armstrong beat Merckx in a TDF - you've got to be joking.
Indurain destroyed yer hero for every year when they went head to head.
Indurain would be nowhere near Merckx standard.
QED : Merckx would destroy Armstrong.

And finally yer hero hasn't got the confidence or ability to win other races in a
season, as well as trying to win a TDF.