Indurain's doctor says TDF too hard!

[Induray]

That may be partially true. But because the drugs & synthetic hormones affect on human chemistry, dosage, frequencies, and access are not disclosed to the public---or even amongst the riders---it is still unfair. Some athletes may just be better doped whereas others might be stronger---if everyone were clean.

Maybe it is the winner--who had the most powerful drug---not available to the 2nd place finisher, or maybe it is the doctor's advice on dosages/frequencies that gave the winning edge?

It is unfortunate that athletic contests are now testing chemistry every bit as much as equipment, work ethic and natural genetics.

It is an "arms race" in the peloton--and while many of the drugs are well know and are widely available to all, some drugs are not. Research experimental drugs may only be offered to certain famous riders or infamous doctors.

That would both unfair and unethical.

In other words, we do not know who is the true winner, because powerful drugs, dosages and methods are keep secret from the fans, each rider, and from the drug companies too. And as long as doping is denied or kept secret---a potential for competitive advantage is a possibility.

It is all top secret.

But you could also say that about fairness in a better training staff and training equipment. More wind tunnel testing, better support staff (Mech's, masseuse, cooks etc.). A better funded team will usually have an advantage over a second tier team including doping. Not that I am for doping. But I wonder, Have we reached or are reaching human physical limits?? Will the public still be interesting if fewer records are broken? What is next? Genetic Engineering?
I enjoy watching the Tours but do not take them at heart. This is television, entertaiment. But when I ride, it's a different thing, that is my reality....and that my friend is what matters to me. So let them dope all they want, It will not affect the outcome of any of MY RIDES.

 

[mjolnir2k]

How the **** do you KNOW that Jan Ullrich turns up persistently unfit for the TDF ?
Have you ever been at Le Grand Depart ?
Have you ?

I've been at two - where Jan Ullrich turned up and he didn't look unfit to me.
I was at the Grand Depart in Dublin in 1998 and Ullrich looked fit - as fit as everyone else there.
He was beaten by Pantani that year.

Asshat...this year will mark my 3rd TdF that I will have seen in person (2000, and 2002 being the others.) So I do feel qualified to make that statement.

If you think I am the ONLY person to say that Ullrich has shown up out of shape then you have either A) Never listened to the commentary of Phil Liggett and Paul Sherwin or B) just don't know any better. In Fact Ullrich's own managers have said as much in years past. Get your head out of Flyers ass and get a reality check!

So stop spinning the Lance Armstrong lie about people not training hard and the rest of the bilge he comes out with.
We've read the book - we've read Armstrong's revisionist views and we don't chose to believe it.
Pedal your urban myths elsewhere.
Or better still get to the Grand Depart for yourself and see the how wrong Lance Armstrong's views actually are.

You fail to accept that LA and other's might actually train harder or have more dedication to their JOBS than some of the other riders in the pro tour....now who has his head in the sand??? You are foolish if you think every rider trains as hard as the next guy. It's just not the case.

There's no perhaps about it - Merckx palmares dwarfs Armstrongs.
That is a fact - and there's no amout of revisionism that can deny that.

Armstrong beat Merckx in a TDF - you've got to be joking.
Indurain destroyed yer hero for every year when they went head to head.
Indurain would be nowhere near Merckx standard.
QED : Merckx would destroy Armstrong.

And finally yer hero hasn't got the confidence or ability to win other races in a
season, as well as trying to win a TDF.

Again you display your ramapnt anti-Lance attitude and your general stupidity overall. Show me another competitor since Pantani that has succesfully ridden the Giro and the Tour in the same year....NONE! Several have tried to disasterous result. The racers of today are simply stronger, better trained athletes than the years past. The riders that Merkcx beat up upon wouldn't even be in the peloton of these days. That's like saying the 1965 Boston Celtics could beat the 2004 Detroit Pistons...it just wouldn't even be close.

Lance has a single goal each season and somehow that's WRONG??? Why?? He races several other races each year and wins or places in his fair share of them...somehow that's not enough for you? Whatever. You have your agenda and your opinion is indicitive of it. You don't have to like LA, but to say he is an inferior rider b/c all he does is win the TdF is like saying you hated the Celtics b/c all they did was win championships. Stupid!

Keep up the good work...you show your true colors more clearly with each post!

 

[kennf]

To sum up the theories so far:

According to Flyer, if a cyclist is beating other cyclists who are dopers, then he too must be a doper, regardless of talent or training;

Every rider in the TdF peloton is doping;

According to Limerickman, Lance's sudden success in 1999, after lackluster performances earlier in his career, proves he was doping-- but Flyer contends Lance has been doping since age 16;

People can gauge Ullrich's fitness and preparation by looking at him at the start line (Cool, no more need for those nasty aerobic power tests);

If a cyclist dies from a heart attack or cancer, it was due to doping;

Indurain won 5 Tours in a row (and a Giro), but could not possibly have been doping because ... (Or maybe Flyer believes Indurain was a doper too, I don't know);

Armstrong never won another race in a year he won the Tour. Except the Tour of Switzerland. And Dauphine Libere.

Most of the people posting know exactly how hard Armstrong trains or doesn't train because they ride with him every day, or review the daily read-outs from his SRM;

Brystol Myers is secretly funneling cutting-edge drugs to Armstrong as part of a marketing campaign to make more money selling anemia drugs to cancer patients. Except that they can't advertise the fact they are supplying drugs to Armstrong. That would hurt the reputation of both and kill their sales. Truly sneaky.

Armstrong's elevated hcg levels in summer 1996 were due to injections by Ferrari-- not his advanced testicular cancer;

And as for this statement by Limerickman:

"Or better still get to the Grand Depart for yourself and see the how wrong Lance Armstrong's views actually are."

I certainly can't argue with that. I can't understand it either.

 

[bspeedy00]

To sum up the theories so far:

According to Flyer, if a cyclist is beating other cyclists who are dopers, then he too must be a doper, regardless of talent or training;

Every rider in the TdF peloton is doping;

According to Limerickman, Lance's sudden success in 1999, after lackluster performances earlier in his career, proves he was doping-- but Flyer contends Lance has been doping since age 16;

People can gauge Ullrich's fitness and preparation by looking at him at the start line (Cool, no more need for those nasty aerobic power tests);

If a cyclist dies from a heart attack or cancer, it was due to doping;

Indurain won 5 Tours in a row (and a Giro), but could not possibly have been doping because ... (Or maybe Flyer believes Indurain was a doper too, I don't know);

Armstrong never won another race in a year he won the Tour. Except the Tour of Switzerland. And Dauphine Libere.

Most of the people posting know exactly how hard Armstrong trains or doesn't train because they ride with him every day, or review the daily read-outs from his SRM;

Brystol Myers is secretly funneling cutting-edge drugs to Armstrong as part of a marketing campaign to make more money selling anemia drugs to cancer patients. Except that they can't advertise the fact they are supplying drugs to Armstrong. That would hurt the reputation of both and kill their sales. Truly sneaky.

Armstrong's elevated hcg levels in summer 1996 were due to injections by Ferrari-- not his advanced testicular cancer;

And as for this statement by Limerickman:

"Or better still get to the Grand Depart for yourself and see the how wrong Lance Armstrong's views actually are."

I certainly can't argue with that. I can't understand it either.

Absolutely couldnt agree more, great post. Oh, but didnt you know that everyone on this forum has trained with every great professional cyclist, has an M.D. and Ph.D in biochemistry, and has first hand knowledge of every thing cycling. Oh, wait, maybe not.

 

[micron]

Absolutely couldnt agree more, great post. Oh, but didnt you know that everyone on this forum has trained with every great professional cyclist, has an M.D. and Ph.D in biochemistry, and has first hand knowledge of every thing cycling. Oh, wait, maybe not.

I would like to dispute a statement that Armstrong's TdF palmares far outstrip those of Hinault or Merckx. Let's examine just how wrong this statement is, shall we?

Overall stage wins:
Merckx 34
Hinault 28
Andre Leducq 25
Armstrong 23
Oh, Armstrong isn't even top 3 in stage wins

Merckx achieved the unique feat of also winning all 3 jerseys in his first Tour win, and won overall and KoM (1970) and overall and points (1971, 1972) - oh and in 70 and 72 he'd also won the Giro.

Hinault also managed overall and points in 1979.

Let's face it, to suggest that Armstrong's TdF career outshines those of Merckx and Hinault means you're talking out of your ****.

 

[Laggard]

Again you display your ramapnt anti-Lance attitude and your general stupidity overall. Show me another competitor since Pantani that has succesfully ridden the Giro and the Tour in the same year....NONE! Several have tried to disasterous result. The racers of today are simply stronger, better trained athletes than the years past.

Yeah, seven years ago is a whole other age.

The riders that Merkcx beat up upon wouldn't even be in the peloton of these days.

********

 

[wolfix]

Lance armstrong ........ 6 TDF wins { possibly more }
Eddy ......................... 5 wins
Hinault .................... 5 wins And one was a gift.... The American LeMond was instructed to wait for the "Badger. " Of course , we owe the French a gift ..... Remember they gave us that big statue out in the bay in New York ....... I believe that was a pre-payment for saving their asses in the 1940's..........

And I guess it is an "American" thing to think that winning the TDF is more important then winning stages...... Americans just do not understand ........ But since the U. S. started sending a few riders over, Let's see ...... United States 9 TDF victories......
France....... "0" Ok , lets give them Hinaults
victory in 1995... It's only fair , since it was LeMond that gave it
to him anyway ...
Italy .............. " 1"
Spain ............."6"
Germany ........ "1"
Ireland ........... "1"
Denark ............. "1"
Since it seems that that the Americans have 9 wins out of the last 20 , could it be a possibility that Americans love to have a holiday bike ride around France every July...... And Americans have the love of fashion ...... Americans love the Italian designers....... But in July , certain Americans love the color yellow........


Why is it that Indurain was not considered a doper???? He was also a dominating rider, as Lance is. I believe the answer is because he is European , and there are European fans who hate the fact an American has come and dominated it like no European before , and then goes home ........
Lance is looking out for his future also ....... His financial future lies here in America. Europe no longer has the control over cycling it once had ....... So why shouldn't Lance use the other European races as traing days ?????
My current favorite rider is the big German ....... However, when he got caught using dope , { not performance enhancing , but recreational } it showed that maybe he does not take cycling as seriously as he should ........ However, as many second places as he has, proves he is a great rider too ...... I believe that if Lance did not show up , that Jan would have at least 2 more TDF victories..... Maybe even 7 ..........

 

[micron]

Lance armstrong ........ 6 TDF wins { possibly more }
Eddy ......................... 5 wins
Hinault .................... 5 wins And one was a gift.... The American LeMond was instructed to wait for the "Badger. " Of course , we owe the French a gift ..... Remember they gave us that big statue out in the bay in New York ....... I believe that was a pre-payment for saving their asses in the 1940's..........

And I guess it is an "American" thing to think that winning the TDF is more important then winning stages...... Americans just do not understand ........ But since the U. S. started sending a few riders over, Let's see ...... United States 9 TDF victories......
France....... "0" Ok , lets give them Hinaults
victory in 1995... It's only fair , since it was LeMond that gave it
to him anyway ...
Italy .............. " 1"
Spain ............."6"
Germany ........ "1"
Ireland ........... "1"
Denark ............. "1"
Since it seems that that the Americans have 9 wins out of the last 20 , could it be a possibility that Americans love to have a holiday bike ride around France every July...... And Americans have the love of fashion ...... Americans love the Italian designers....... But in July , certain Americans love the color yellow........


Why is it that Indurain was not considered a doper???? He was also a dominating rider, as Lance is. I believe the answer is because he is European , and there are European fans who hate the fact an American has come and dominated it like no European before , and then goes home ........
Lance is looking out for his future also ....... His financial future lies here in America. Europe no longer has the control over cycling it once had ....... So why shouldn't Lance use the other European races as traing days ?????
My current favorite rider is the big German ....... However, when he got caught using dope , { not performance enhancing , but recreational } it showed that maybe he does not take cycling as seriously as he should ........ However, as many second places as he has, proves he is a great rider too ...... I believe that if Lance did not show up , that Jan would have at least 2 more TDF victories..... Maybe even 7 ..........

Interesting bit of revisionist history - was only the Americans who liberated France was it? I suppose the Canadians, British, Poles and the French themselves had nothing to do with it? Sorry, talking out of your **** again

 

[wolfix]

I don't believe that many of the riders in Eddys time would be in the peleton today using the training methods they used then .......... However they would be in the peleton today with the training methods that are used today ......... A good rider is a good rider ...... That has never changed . It is the traing methods that have changed.........

 

[wolfix]

Interesting bit of revisionist history - was only the Americans who liberated France was it? I suppose the Canadians, British, Poles and the French themselves had nothing to do with it? Sorry, talking out of your **** again

Oh no ....... The other countries contributions were a great thing ...... However, I doubt if there would be a TDF today with just their contributions .......

 

[micron]

Oh no ....... The other countries contributions were a great thing ...... However, I doubt if there would be a TDF today with just their contributions .......

but there wouldn't be a TdF at all were it not for the French - who didn't need any help whatsoever in coming up with the idea...

 

[mjolnir2k]

Yeah, seven years ago is a whole other age.

Yep, 7 years is a LOOOOONG time ago in terms of athletic performance, technological advancements and training regimen. If you don't believe it then you are not in touch with the pace of modern society.

 

[OLMO]

Oh no ....... The other countries contributions were a great thing ...... However, I doubt if there would be a TDF today with just their contributions .......

the Russians won WWII. they did most of the fighting and dying; the Wehrmacht that the Americans faced was a faint shadow of the machine that stormed into Russia in 1941.

 

[micron]

the Russians won WWII. they did most of the fighting and dying; the Wehrmacht that the Americans faced was a faint shadow of the machine that stormed into Russia in 1941.

Agreed - the Russian people were real heroes

 

[Flyer]

Yep, 7 years is a LOOOOONG time ago in terms of athletic performance, technological advancements and training regimen. If you don't believe it then you are not in touch with the pace of modern society.

Calling the kettle black?

Finally a true statement from the flaming keyboard of a TDF commercially minded fan.

In 1998, Mauro Gianetti ovedosed on PFC (peraflouracarbon).


By the year 2000 Lance's USPO Team possessed synthetic calf blood (Actovegin).

Presently, Hemopure, another bovine-based oxygen carrier is in play.

None of these products is/were approved for use in human beings. Animals, yes.

Such silly regulations never stopped Mauro Gianetti (Chris Horner's new boss) or Lance Armstrong from winning----at-all-cost.

Only winning matters. Once that is understood, the very best (modern) dope is sought out or developed for athletes.

30 years ago, Winstrol (steroid for cattle) were passed out like aspirin in college football locker-rooms. The coach kept a supply in his office.

Isn't Nandrolone better. Paula Pezzo worked her way through a doping scandal in 1997 after murdering all her mountain bike rivals, (8 first places, 2 second places in World Cup Mtn Bike races)-- And three positive tests for Nandrolone.

She was aquitted eventually. Had to get a lawyer.

She was dehydrated. She ate too much meat.

Her birth control pills complicated it. blah, blah, blah.

Today THG is preferred---and/or it's stealth friends are in play.

Great point re: being out-of-touch with the modern society of doping.

Think of the dope now being prepared for use/abuse the 2005 TDF. It ought to be good--and exempt from WADA rules, now required for cycling. (8/2004)

 

[mjolnir2k]

Calling the kettle black?

Finally a true statement from the flaming keyboard of a TDF commercially minded fan.

In 1998, Mauro Gianetti ovedosed on PFC (peraflouracarbon).


By the year 2000 Lance's USPO Team possessed synthetic calf blood (Actovegin).

Presently, Hemopure, another bovine-based oxygen carrier is in play.

None of these products is/were approved for use in human beings. Animals, yes.

Such silly regulations never stopped Mauro Gianetti (Chris Horner's new boss) or Lance Armstrong from winning----at-all-cost.

Only winning matters. Once that is understood, the very best (modern) dope is sought out or developed for athletes.

30 years ago, Winstrol (steroid for cattle) were passed out like aspirin in college football locker-rooms. The coach kept a supply in his office.

Isn't Nandrolone better. Paula Pezzo worked her way through a doping scandal in 1997 after murdering all her mountain bike rivals, (8 first places, 2 second places in World Cup Mtn Bike races)-- And three positive tests for Nandrolone.

She was aquitted eventually. Had to get a lawyer.

She was dehydrated. She ate too much meat.

Her birth control pills complicated it. blah, blah, blah.

Today THG is preferred---and/or it's stealth friends are in play.

Great point re: being out-of-touch with the modern society of doping.

Think of the dope now being prepared for use/abuse the 2005 TDF. It ought to be good--and exempt from WADA rules, now required for cycling. (8/2004)

And the other thing that has changed is that access to the internet allows for the conspiracy hounds to further their life's work with unfounded half truths supported by endless medical drivel they neither understand or comprehend, yet post as if they know what they speak of.

That's the worst and most unfortunate change. It's actual fairly comical though as you can almost predict what these mindless idiots will post next. They should just have a web site for these morons to go to for one stop conspiracy theory shopping.


www.lookatmeicansurfthewebandmakethingsup.com

 

[limerickman]

I believe that was a pre-payment for saving their asses in the 1940's..........

[/font][/size][/i]

You lot joined the war only after being attacked by Japan.
You were too busy profiteering between 1939-1941.

Why is it that Indurain was not considered a doper???? He was also a dominating rider, as Lance is. I believe the answer is because he is European , and there are European fans who hate the fact an american...........

[/font]

Indurain's palmares shows clear and consistent improvement year on year in the peloton.
That's why there are no allegations of doping against Indurain.

Let me dispell your xenophobic diatribe here.

LeMond came to Europe and won well.
He even beat the greatest French rider of all time (Hinault) in the process.
There was never any suggestion made at that time, that Greg had doped.
So if all us Europeans are jealous of Americans, as you say - why wasn't there the same charges levelled at Greg or Andy Hampsten for that matter ?
Why weren't they accused of doping ?

My current favorite rider is the big German ....... However, when he got caught using dope , { not performance enhancing , but recreational } it showed that maybe he does not take cycling as seriously as he should ........ However, as many second places as he has, proves he is a great rider too ...... I believe that if Lance did not show up , that Jan would have at least 2 more TDF victories..... Maybe even 7 ..........

[/font][/size]

Ullrich is a talented cyclist.
In fact I would say he is probably the best talent that I have seen on a bike.
The fact that he has finished second to Pantani and Armstrong in the TDF may well be down to the fact that he takes that talent for granted.

 

[Flyer]

And the other thing that has changed is that access to the internet allows for the conspiracy hounds to further their life's work with unfounded half truths supported by endless medical drivel they neither understand or comprehend, yet post as if they know what they speak of.

That's the worst and most unfortunate change. It's actual fairly comical though as you can almost predict what these mindless idiots will post next. They should just have a web site for these morons to go to for one stop conspiracy theory shopping.


www.lookatmeicansurfthewebandmakethingsup.com

Learn to read.

THERE IS NO CONSPIACY WITH DOPING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Only a standard business practice.

 

[Flyer]

Well I have learned a few things on these doping posts.

1) a liar is someone who does not endorse Lance Armstrong

2) a "jealous liar" is someone who poses vexing questions about Lance's performances---especially the 1999 to present TDF victories.

3) a moron is someone who questions an athletes denials of doping---by dredging up past history of former teammates, doctors and fellow podium alumni--all of whom have admitted to --or been convicted of performance doping.

4) a Pedophile is someone whose doping questions and vexing and inescapable conclusions threaten the mental health of concerned readers. It also serves to contradict corporate advertising themes designed to help liberate cash from consumer wallets--w/o violence. (aka: business)

I also learned that Major League Baseball is more united in doping denials than is cycling. More money= better attorneys and parsed words for the vexing quotations.

I also learned that went a professional athlete is placed under oath---they spontaneously develop acute amnesia.

From World Series Ace Curt Schilling, to corked bat cheater Sammy Sosa, to Mark McGwire to Barry Bonds, to cyclist Claudio Chiapucci during the Conconi trial. Whatever drugs these guys do use---it certainly does not help their memories.

Or, a vast right wing conspiracy made up doping, PEDs, David Millar's cofession and Tyler's strange blood. It's all a lie, just a big jealous lie.

 

[limerickman]

Well I have learned a few things on these doping posts.

1) a liar is someone who does not endorse Lance Armstrong

2) a "jealous liar" is someone who poses vexing questions about Lance's performances---especially the 1999 to present TDF victories.

3) a moron is someone who questions an athletes denials of doping---by dredging up past history of former teammates, doctors and fellow podium alumni--all of whom have admitted to --or been convicted of performance doping.

4) a Pedophile is someone whose doping questions and vexing and inescapable conclusions threaten the mental health of concerned readers. It also serves to contradict corporate advertising themes designed to help liberate cash from consumer wallets--w/o violence. (aka: business)

I also learned that Major League Baseball is more united in doping denials than is cycling. More money= better attorneys and parsed words for the vexing quotations.

I also learned that went a professional athlete is placed under oath---they spontaneously develop acute amnesia.

From World Series Ace Curt Schilling, to corked bat cheater Sammy Sosa, to Mark McGwire to Barry Bonds, to cyclist Claudio Chiapucci during the Conconi trial. Whatever drugs these guys do use---it certainly does not help their memories.

Or, a vast right wing conspiracy made up doping, PEDs, David Millar's cofession and Tyler's strange blood. It's all a lie, just a big jealous lie.

I can understand why Armstrong fans are upset by all these allegations and
about the general distrust that exists concerning their heros performances.
It is a subjective issue for them and they react very defensively when legitimate questions are raised as to how a sporting performance can improve so dramatically.

But what you have consistently pointed out has been true and documented.
Since June 1998, the sport has been subjected to constant stories of drug abuse.
From Festina - Giro - Pantani - Rumsas - LA - Millar - Kelme - TVM - Manzano - Cofidis - Ferrari - Balco.

.