Iraq : A summary of the Bush Gov Lies

[davidmc]

Firstly : In what sense was Saddam defying the world for 12 years ? Surely you can't mean disarmament, because it's been shown that he complied with the disarmament requirements imposed upon him.

It was pretty cheap when you consider the military alternatives. Diplomatic alternatives were not explored because the US systematically shot down any attempts to change the situation via negotiation.

The only exception to that was the Oil for Food programme, but there is little evidence that it was anything more than a way to get oil at heavy discount in return for crappy wheat.

Are you completely against the use of military force in any circumstance? Everytime i post something critical of Hussein you come back w, pretty much; "...things were going swimmingly" How can you say that w/ a straight face. I also point out that this admin. "...was "trolling for info on iraq" ,meaning manufacturing info which i state he should be censured &/or impeached for. Hussein was inciting others to violence against the israeli's not to mention torturing/killing his own people.What's the prob. here

 

[darkboong]

Are you completely against the use of military force in any circumstance?

No

Everytime i post something critical of Hussein you come back w, pretty much; "...things were going swimmingly" How can you say that w/ a straight face. I also

I don't say that with a straight face, that's you putting words into my mouth.

point out that this admin. "...was "trolling for info on iraq" ,meaning manufacturing info which i state he should be censured &/or impeached for. Hussein was inciting others to violence against the israeli's not to mention torturing/killing his own people.What's the prob. here

Just because I don't believe the invasion was justified, doesn't mean that I approve of Saddam and his pre-war regime. Far from it. I just don't think you can make a viable case for the war from the humanitarian and military threat point of view.

Let's look at Saddam's alleged support of Palestinians, I'll start with a quick assessment of the threat posed by the Saddam sponsored Palestinians.

The figures speak for themselves, a K : D heading towards 4:1. Israel has managed to confine 900,000 people they displaced from their homes in Gaza alone. Gaza is the most densely populated place on Earth ! The Palestinians have less than 22% of the land, yet they account for nearly 50% of the total population of Israel. The IDF kills at will in the occupied territories, and has even been able to displace thousands more Palestinians with very minor casualties. The Palestinians are a very minor threat to the state of Israel at present, and I don't see that changing.

So on the one hand we have minimal threat posed by Saddam to the outside world and on the other we have a huge material decline in the life expectancy of Iraqis under US coalition rule... The fact that civil order was not discussed or planned for in the run up to the invasion gives the lie to the idea that the Administration was doing this for the welfare of the Iraqi people.

Abu Gharaib (not an isolated incident as it turns out), reports of Iraqis being buried in mass graves by US servicemen, repeated bombing of civillian targets, etc. etc. etc... Repeated denials of independently confirmed civillian casualties don't really give much hope of the situation ever turning around. Hear no evil, see no evil.

 

[iknowtest]

you're new avatar looks a little homoerotic.

DaveyFem,
Sounds like you've coughed up a stomach full of cum in the locker room after soccer practice, more than a few times, queer bait.

 

[davidmc]

No

Just because I don't believe the invasion was justified, doesn't mean that I approve of Saddam and his pre-war regime. Far from it. I just don't think you can make a viable case for the war from the humanitarian and military threat point of view.

I look at it from the 14 UN Resolutions standpoint. I don't buy the admin's WMD yarn either although it can't be proved/disproved, it's a big country. The air patrol was getting really old & costly. Either obey the law or don't obey the law & suffer the consequences. He was playing cat & mouse. F*** that ****. He had everything he needed while his people did'nt. I won't even go into the issue w/ his sadistic son grabbing women off of the streetcorners. The guy was bad new's for his people & israel.

Let's look at Saddam's alleged support of Palestinians, I'll start with a quick assessment of the threat posed by the Saddam sponsored Palestinians.

@ $35-50k for the family of a suicide bomber martyr.

Gaza is the most densely populated place on Earth ! The Palestinians have less than 22% of the land, yet they account for nearly 50% of the total population of Israel.

Thats what i' have a hard time to understand. Whoever carved up the countries over there did it in a widely disparate fashion. You can see on a map that israel is drastically smaller than the surrounding countries.

we have a huge material decline in the life expectancy of Iraqis under US coalition rule... The fact that civil order was not discussed or planned for in the run up to the invasion gives the lie to the idea that the Administration was doing this for the welfare of the Iraqi people.

It's still relatively early, in terms of the war's aftermath, but as i have stated before i believe this was an ill-concieved/underplanned war. Add to that the fact that these people had been living under authoritarian/despotic rule since the beginning of time. Lets be realistic here, change is'nt going to happen that rapidly. Unfortunately for bush, it even appears that they may elect a theocratic gov't, that would be the equivalent of the war "blowing up in bush's face"

 

[limerickman]

DaveyFem,
Sounds like you've coughed up a stomach full of cum in the locker room after soccer practice, more than a few times, queer bait.

That's great coming form a bloke that loves Les Paul !

 

[davidmc]

That's great coming form a bloke that loves Les Paul !

Yeah whats the deal of having an avatar w/ a 1/2 naked man standing w/ his legs akimbo ? I did like predator but that avatar is a little much.

 

[davidmc]

here's a good artice. A brief excerpt, as also posted in g.bush your opinion:

BULLETIN: KERRY WINS GONZO ENDORSEMENT; DR THOMPSON JOINS DEMOCRAT IN CALLING BUSH "THE SYPHILIS PRESIDENT".

"Four more years of George Bush will be like four more years of syphilis," the famed author said yesterday at a hastily called press conference near his home in Woody Creek, Colorado.

"Only a fool or a sucker would vote for a dangerous loser like Bush. He hates everything we stand for, and he knows we will vote against him in November." Thompson, well known for the eerie accuracy of his political instincts, went on to denounce Ralph Nader as "a worthless Judas goat with no moral compass."

"I endorsed John Kerry a long time ago," he said, "and I will do everything in my power, short of roaming the streets with a meat hammer, to help him be the next president of the United States."
The entire article is at:http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1028-29.htm

Incidentally, Lim, this has to be one of the best threads in "the box"

 

[limerickman]

here's a good artice. A brief excerpt, as also posted in g.bush your opinion:

BULLETIN: KERRY WINS GONZO ENDORSEMENT; DR THOMPSON JOINS DEMOCRAT IN CALLING BUSH "THE SYPHILIS PRESIDENT".

"Four more years of George Bush will be like four more years of syphilis," the famed author said yesterday at a hastily called press conference near his home in Woody Creek, Colorado.

"Only a fool or a sucker would vote for a dangerous loser like Bush. He hates everything we stand for, and he knows we will vote against him in November." Thompson, well known for the eerie accuracy of his political instincts, went on to denounce Ralph Nader as "a worthless Judas goat with no moral compass."

"I endorsed John Kerry a long time ago," he said, "and I will do everything in my power, short of roaming the streets with a meat hammer, to help him be the next president of the United States."
The entire article is at:http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1028-29.htm

Incidentally, Lim, this has to be one of the best threads in "the box"

Thanks David - I'm glad that you like it because it is hard to recall how and when Bush lied and the sequence of events that have brought us to this point.

Here's the timeline again :

September 11th 2001.

Bush invades Afghanistan : Mullah Omar and BinLaden vanish.
Taliban fade away.

November 2001 : $25million bounty placed on BinLaden "we used to have this poster that said wanted dead or alive", says Bush.

29th January 2002 : Bush addresses Congress and Senate and says "Iraq tried to source Uranium from *****" "Axis of Evil" "My good friend Tony Blair" "This is a fight between Good and Evil".

June 2002 : Blair & Bush convene plans to invade Iraq.

September 2002 : Dodgy document with incorrect intelligence is circulated "45 minute warning" "Al Qaeda linked to Iraq" "Saddam behind 9/11".

October 2002 - February 2003 : Widespread anti-War demos.
British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook resigns saying "Iraq was in no way linked to Al Qaeda and 9/11".
People dispute Iraq/Al Qeda link.

February 2003 : Colin Powell presented doctored evidence to the UN to validate the case for the invasion of Iraq.

March 2003 : USA invades Iraq because of alleged links to Al Qaeda, BinLaden, terrorism.

March 2003 - now :

Britain :
David Kelly - UN weapons inspector - is publicly humiliated before House of Commons Committee, for stating that Dodgy Document data was wrong.
Andrew Gilligan : BBC reporter is fired for reporting David Kelly's comments.
David Kelly commits suicide.
Blair instigates Hutton enquiry.
Alisatir Campell - Blairs mouthpiece - blasts BBC.
BBC blast Campbell.
Hutton reports.
No one accepts Hutton.
BBC Chairman and CEO resign over political pressure from 10 Downing St.
Blair convenes Butler enquiry.
Butler enquiry reports that Blair goverment "over emphasised intelligence information which was sporadic, incomplete and which was unreliable regarding Iraq WMD and alleged links to Al Qaeda".
Ongoing row between Blair and people over the reasons to go to war - has dominated the political landscape since March 2003.
Public trust in Blair plummets.
British troops asked to bail out USA in Fallujah.

USA :
Richard A Clarke "Bush had always intended to invade Iraq - even before 9/11".
Paul O'Neill : US Treasury Sec. endorses Clarke.
Abu Guraib photograhs depict sexual, physical and religious abuse of prisoners.
Lindie England, Charles Grainer, Ivan Fredericks : depicted in photos of sexual
humiliation of prisoners.
Rumsfeld denies all knowledge of Abu Ghuraib.
Senate investigation : hearings are shown images and film of abuse at Abu Ghuraib: films not released to public "as these images are too despicable".
Colin Powell admits that evidence to UN given by him in february 2003 was doctored.
Seymour Hersh provides evidence of order to torture prisoners and alleged Rumsfeld gave the ok for same.

US casualties increase.
Hussein is captured and sons killed.
US unable to control 70% of Iraq.
UN headquarters bombed in Baghdad - UN leave Iraq.
Sucide bombings increase.
Al Sadr attacks US troops.
Al Zaqawi takes hostages.
Al Zaqawi beheads hostages.

BinLaden appears on video - four days before US Presidential election.

 

[FredC]

Thanks David - I'm glad that you like it because it is hard to recall how and when Bush lied and the sequence of events that have brought us to this point.

Here's the timeline again :

September 11th 2001.

Bush invades Afghanistan : Mullah Omar and BinLaden vanish.
Taliban fade away.

November 2001 : $25million bounty placed on BinLaden "we used to have this poster that said wanted dead or alive", says Bush.

29th January 2002 : Bush addresses Congress and Senate and says "Iraq tried to source Uranium from *****" "Axis of Evil" "My good friend Tony Blair" "This is a fight between Good and Evil".

June 2002 : Blair & Bush convene plans to invade Iraq.

September 2002 : Dodgy document with incorrect intelligence is circulated "45 minute warning" "Al Qaeda linked to Iraq" "Saddam behind 9/11".

October 2002 - February 2003 : Widespread anti-War demos.
British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook resigns saying "Iraq was in no way linked to Al Qaeda and 9/11".
People dispute Iraq/Al Qeda link.

February 2003 : Colin Powell presented doctored evidence to the UN to validate the case for the invasion of Iraq.

March 2003 : USA invades Iraq because of alleged links to Al Qaeda, BinLaden, terrorism.

March 2003 - now :

Britain :
David Kelly - UN weapons inspector - is publicly humiliated before House of Commons Committee, for stating that Dodgy Document data was wrong.
Andrew Gilligan : BBC reporter is fired for reporting David Kelly's comments.
David Kelly commits suicide.
Blair instigates Hutton enquiry.
Alisatir Campell - Blairs mouthpiece - blasts BBC.
BBC blast Campbell.
Hutton reports.
No one accepts Hutton.
BBC Chairman and CEO resign over political pressure from 10 Downing St.
Blair convenes Butler enquiry.
Butler enquiry reports that Blair goverment "over emphasised intelligence information which was sporadic, incomplete and which was unreliable regarding Iraq WMD and alleged links to Al Qaeda".
Ongoing row between Blair and people over the reasons to go to war - has dominated the political landscape since March 2003.
Public trust in Blair plummets.
British troops asked to bail out USA in Fallujah.

USA :
Richard A Clarke "Bush had always intended to invade Iraq - even before 9/11".
Paul O'Neill : US Treasury Sec. endorses Clarke.
Abu Guraib photograhs depict sexual, physical and religious abuse of prisoners.
Lindie England, Charles Grainer, Ivan Fredericks : depicted in photos of sexual
humiliation of prisoners.
Rumsfeld denies all knowledge of Abu Ghuraib.
Senate investigation : hearings are shown images and film of abuse at Abu Ghuraib: films not released to public "as these images are too despicable".
Colin Powell admits that evidence to UN given by him in february 2003 was doctored.
Seymour Hersh provides evidence of order to torture prisoners and alleged Rumsfeld gave the ok for same.

US casualties increase.
Hussein is captured and sons killed.
US unable to control 70% of Iraq.
UN headquarters bombed in Baghdad - UN leave Iraq.
Sucide bombings increase.
Al Sadr attacks US troops.
Al Zaqawi takes hostages.
Al Zaqawi beheads hostages.

BinLaden appears on video - four days before US Presidential election.

That's all very well, but have they found any people who can count votes? or will they fly the boxes to Europe where people are better educated?

 

[limerickman]

That's all very well, but have they found any people who can count votes? or will they fly the boxes to Europe where people are better educated?

Ha, Ha.
Very good.

Do you have Sky News ?
If you do - try to get to see Adam Boulton interviewing the eponymous Anne
Coulter (I'd never heard of her - until one of the muppets here mentioned her).
Classic stuff.
I saw the interview on his political program this morning.
Runs rings around here - not difficult really, given the intelligence quotient.

Also if you have Channel 5 (and this is a long shot) : there's a program called
The Human Chimp, tonight at 20.00 hrs.

Here's the preamble in the TV Guide " The strange story of Oliver the Chimp,
a sideshow attraction whose odd facial appearance, upright gait and unusual behaviour led to some speculation that he was perhaps half human - a theory later disproved by DNA analysis".

Sounds like a photofit of George Bush to me - non ?

 

[FredC]

Ha, Ha.
Very good.

Do you have Sky News ?
If you do - try to get to see Adam Boulton interviewing the eponymous Anne
Coulter (I'd never heard of her - until one of the muppets here mentioned her).
Classic stuff.
I saw the interview on his political program this morning.
Runs rings around here - not difficult really, given the intelligence quotient.

Also if you have Channel 5 (and this is a long shot) : there's a program called
The Human Chimp, tonight at 20.00 hrs.

Here's the preamble in the TV Guide " The strange story of Oliver the Chimp,
a sideshow attraction whose odd facial appearance, upright gait and unusual behaviour led to some speculation that he was perhaps half human - a theory later disproved by DNA analysis".

Sounds like a photofit of George Bush to me - non ?

Got sky on, nothing yet. I say, that Bin Laden chap is looking very well these days. I'll do Bremner Bird & Fortune on C4, and possibly Panorama on 1. Yassers Getting Better. Hey try this one, I found it while looking for Dubyas ancestry. www.hereinreality.com/familyvalues.html