Is it possible to live in America without a car?



"Dave Head" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 1 Jun 2006 17:56:46 -0700, "Furious George" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Why would I spend any time in public transit to go to the grocery
>>store? The grocery store is less than one block away. I'll walk there
>>before you've even pulled out of the driveway.
>
> No, you won't, and you'll be limited to whatever's within walking distance
> (if
> any really are - not true for most people) and I'll have dozens of grocery
> stores from which to choose. And I _will_ get my shopping done before
> you, and
> can carry 5 cases of diet coke (that was on sale - 4 cases for $10.00 and
> then
> the 5th one for free the last time I was there - I still have a lot left
> over
> (that I will drink over the next few weeks)) and you'll be making 2 trips
> to
> take advantage of that - 'cuz its bulky and its heavy.
>
Obviously this depends on your area. Within 3 miles of me (<15 minutes
bicycling) I have 2 Safeways, I Albertson's, 1 CostCo, 1 Trader Joe's and at
least 3 drug stores with milk, bread, etc. There's two Target stores and a
Wal-mart opens in 2 months. I wouldn't go any farther than that in any
event.

I got an old kid trailer for the bike, which will hold more than what my
family of 4 will eat and drink in a week.

For me personally, this means "one less car" rather than "no car".
 
Mike Kruger wrote:
> "Dave Head" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 1 Jun 2006 17:56:46 -0700, "Furious George" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Why would I spend any time in public transit to go to the grocery
>>> store? The grocery store is less than one block away. I'll walk there
>>> before you've even pulled out of the driveway.
>> No, you won't, and you'll be limited to whatever's within walking distance
>> (if
>> any really are - not true for most people) and I'll have dozens of grocery
>> stores from which to choose. And I _will_ get my shopping done before
>> you, and
>> can carry 5 cases of diet coke (that was on sale - 4 cases for $10.00 and
>> then
>> the 5th one for free the last time I was there - I still have a lot left
>> over
>> (that I will drink over the next few weeks)) and you'll be making 2 trips
>> to
>> take advantage of that - 'cuz its bulky and its heavy.
>>
> Obviously this depends on your area. Within 3 miles of me (<15 minutes
> bicycling) I have 2 Safeways, I Albertson's, 1 CostCo, 1 Trader Joe's and at
> least 3 drug stores with milk, bread, etc. There's two Target stores and a
> Wal-mart opens in 2 months. I wouldn't go any farther than that in any
> event.
>
> I got an old kid trailer for the bike, which will hold more than what my
> family of 4 will eat and drink in a week.
>
> For me personally, this means "one less car" rather than "no car".
>
>
There are times when you just have to have a car. Like going to 2
different business meetings in one day, both over 100 miles from home
and about 20 miles apart from each other.
Garage sales. I cruise these on my bike but I have to go get the cage if
I buy something big. I am NOT going to attempt to carry home an antique
dresser on my bike.
Grocery shopping for the month. About 90% of food can be stored for a
month or even forever if it is canned. The other 10% is the daily/weekly
fruits and veggies and can be done on a bike.
Driving one of your kids or neighbors to the emergency room if you have to.
Unless you live in the heart of a big city (or are Amish) then you need
a car at least sometimes. I have 3 family cars since my wife and
daughter never walk and one for me that almost never gets used. I pay
about 10 times as much for basic insurance as I do for gas, but I have
to do it for the 'just in case' things that force me to drive.
Bill Baka
 
Yes for big cities. No for suburbia.
when I came to this country 10 y ago I lived in surburban NJ for $400
a month (food and cloths). I had an old bike which a friend of mine
donated to me. For 2 months, twice a week, I rode 5 miles to get
groceries. In these two months I've been doored once going ~25 mph, and
I hit some construction debris on the road that I could not see in the
dark. I ended up in paramedical care in both cases. After these 2
months I started carpooling for my groceries with that friend who
originally donated the bike. Still one less car (one non-existent car I
should say). I never looked back, and it took me a while to start
riding a bike again, for fitness only.
 
recycled-one wrote: <brevity snip>

> I don't know about America but I found a few things about the tale odd.
>
> -For a person who seemed to be an experienced and avid 'recreational'
> rider, he seemed to make a lot of foolish decisions [clothing etc] just
> because he was cycling for a practical purpose.

No ****. For a guy with 4 bikes it seems he'd have enough sense to put
on some nylon running shorts and a t-shirt. It always kills me when
guys who ride for exercise wear an aero suit. If you're looking for
exercise, add some drag.

If you want to live by bike you're gonna need to carry a backpack too,
ya can't worry about being stylish.
-----

- gpsman
 
Dave Head wrote:
> No, you won't, and you'll be limited to whatever's within walking distance (if
> any really are - not true for most people) and I'll have dozens of grocery
> stores from which to choose. And I _will_ get my shopping done before you, and
> can carry 5 cases of diet coke (that was on sale - 4 cases for $10.00 and then
> the 5th one for free the last time I was there - I still have a lot left over
> (that I will drink over the next few weeks)) and you'll be making 2 trips to
> take advantage of that - 'cuz its bulky and its heavy.

To butt in here, I have three very large grocery stores within about
two miles of home, and I bike to them quite often. For the 5/$10
deal, I can in fact manage it on the bike; I have front and rear
panniers, and can carry 6 12packs without doing anything to wierd.

Time wise, the only thing that seems to be really much different is the
loading of the groceries into the panniers. In the car, its only a
minute or two, on the bike, I'm closer to 3 to 5 minutes, depending on
what I got. Portal to portal transit time seems just about the same,
and depends more on finding my keys, or the catching of traffic lights.
So if my keys are where they are supposed to be, and I get on the
bike, 5 minutes later I'll be walking through the sliding glass door of
the store. In the car, its about the same really, unless I go at a
time when I can park up close; if its 4-7pm, on the other hand, the
bike is way faster simply because I just zip right to the front of the
store and lock up the bike. For the trip home, I even wired a
handlebar button to a garage door opener in a front pocket. No more
fishing for the control, just click, and roll right in to the garage.
So getting home and in, is probably a tiny bit faster on the bike.

Just observations from someone that actually does most of their grocery
shopping with a bike, but still occassionally takes the car to the
store, if only to take advantage of 48 rolls of paper towels for $15 or
something crazyhuge like that.
 
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Myopia, aka typical corporate mentality. Boost immediate shareholder
> equity at the cost of long term benefits.
>
> And, yes - we will all live with it. Thanks a bunch.

So you are saying you that any technology above the caveman is evil and you
hate everybody that does not agree with you.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Yes for big cities. No for suburbia.
> when I came to this country 10 y ago I lived in surburban NJ for $400
> a month (food and cloths). I had an old bike which a friend of mine
> donated to me. For 2 months, twice a week, I rode 5 miles to get

I ride in "suburbia" all the time for utility. No accidents. I think
you just had some very unlucky experiences.

On the door thing, I just assume all car doors that I pass are open and
put the required amount of distance between me and them. Doesn't seem
to cause to much trouble for anyone involved.

The construction debris is harder, and is one of the reasons I consider
lights more important than helmets, but there's always road hazard risk
whether you are in a car or on a bike.
 
"Dave Head" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 02:32:51 GMT, "Cathy Kearns" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Dave Head" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On 1 Jun 2006 17:56:46 -0700, "Furious George" <[email protected]>
> Hey, it was cheap, and I drink a lot of it. $2.50 a case, and then
> finding
> there was a 5th case free, made 'em all $2.00 a case, with a dozen in a
> case,
> so... dang, that's cheap.
>
> And roger the bike trip, but... I _did_ acknowledge that you can get
> around
> without a car, and yeah, I wasn't factoring in a way to haul 5 cases of
> coke
> (plus the other stuff I got - it all came to $44.+ and the coke was only
> $10),
> but the premise that its gonna take longer without a car is still true.

The reply to you assume that there are no time constraints and the value of
a person's time is zero. Making multiple trips instead of one trip is
somehow a good thing.

Typical answer of an idealist with no rational understanding of society.
Also a person that thinks just because they do something that is proves some
point for everybody.

Not much intelligence or education in the person's reply to you
 
The risk on a bike is much higher than on a bike. Riding your bike for
fitness and for fun is a choice that you make and the risk you accept.
Riding your bike to make a political point is probably fun, too ("oil
free and happy"). Both aforementoined cases are especially fun when the
weather is good. But riding your bike because otherwise you will
starve is not fun. In other words, there always must be a car to back
you up when riding the bike is not fun anymore. Which kills the whole
point, because the original question was "Is it possible to live in
America *without* a car?"

[email protected] wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Yes for big cities. No for suburbia.
> > when I came to this country 10 y ago I lived in surburban NJ for $400
> > a month (food and cloths). I had an old bike which a friend of mine
> > donated to me. For 2 months, twice a week, I rode 5 miles to get
>
> I ride in "suburbia" all the time for utility. No accidents. I think
> you just had some very unlucky experiences.
>
> On the door thing, I just assume all car doors that I pass are open and
> put the required amount of distance between me and them. Doesn't seem
> to cause to much trouble for anyone involved.
>
> The construction debris is harder, and is one of the reasons I consider
> lights more important than helmets, but there's always road hazard risk
> whether you are in a car or on a bike.
 
"Jack May" <[email protected]> wrote:

>"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> Myopia, aka typical corporate mentality. Boost immediate shareholder
>> equity at the cost of long term benefits.
>>
>> And, yes - we will all live with it. Thanks a bunch.
>
>So you are saying you that any technology above the caveman is evil and you
>hate everybody that does not agree with you.

Making the fact that it was posted on the internet via an almost
unimaginable amount of technology even more ironic.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
Rita <[email protected]> wrote:

>In New York City driving can easily take longer than public transit.
>And parking is a huge problem. You may get where you want to go
>and then have to drive around for an hour to find a parking place.

For those of you who might think that's not true, I recently helped my
daughter's father-in-law wait for a parking place in front of her
apartment in NYC (northern tip of Manhattan). One of the cars I
chased off for him was driven by a woman who'd been circling the
neighborhood for an hour and a half without luck.

I simply can't imagine wanting a car that bad, personally. I've lived
in cities with outstanding mass transit systems (Seoul and Sydney) and
it's a WHOLE lot better than driving. Not as good as bike commuting
though... ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
Mark Hickey wrote:
> "Jack May" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> >> Myopia, aka typical corporate mentality. Boost immediate shareholder
> >> equity at the cost of long term benefits.
> >>
> >> And, yes - we will all live with it. Thanks a bunch.
> >
> >So you are saying you that any technology above the caveman is evil and you
> >hate everybody that does not agree with you.

Yes, yes, that is exactly what I was saying! Sheesh.

> Making the fact that it was posted on the internet via an almost
> unimaginable amount of technology even more ironic.

It's nice to know that even people that have reading comprehension
issues have supporters. :)

The quote that was conveniently omitted was thus:
John David Galt wrote:
> All of man's great enabling technologies have their prices. If the
> prices weren't negligible we wouldn't have adopted them. Live with it.

Whereupon I commented on the myopia. The delusion that anyone, you and
me included, can foresee all possible repercussions on
society/environment of any new technology, or even existing technology,
is hubris. No one has perfect knowledge and all decisions are made
with imperfect information. How someone can believe that the prices
are deemed acceptable based on information which can't be determined
until well after the fact is ludicrous.

The details of this particular thread are such that people have their
opinions and no amount of reasoning or presentation of supporting
evidence will change them. This does not bother me in the least. I
simply objected to faulty logic foisted in a matter of fact fashion.

R
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> The risk on a bike is much higher than on a bike. Riding your bike
> for fitness and for fun is a choice that you make and the risk you
> accept. Riding your bike to make a political point is probably fun,
> too ("oil free and happy"). Both aforementoined cases are especially
> fun when the weather is good. But riding your bike because otherwise
> you will starve is not fun. In other words, there always must be a
> car to back you up when riding the bike is not fun anymore. Which
> kills the whole point, because the original question was "Is it
> possible to live in America *without* a car?"

Being as how I know personally and know of lots of people living in
urban areas without cars, your conclusions and assumptions fail to pass
muster. Heck, in my home town in the suburbs of Chicago one could live
without a car easily. From my Mom's house, it's six blocks to the
grocery store, seven blocks to downtown, six blocks to your choice of
two pharmacies, one block to the hospital. Her car is 16 years old and
has under 30,000 miles.

The question is really about the individual and the conditions of their
particular life. It's not "is it possible to live in America without a
car" but "how can I live in America without a car?" It's difficult for
most people to see how, because social engineering has organized most
cities and towns to make it difficult to live without a car. But it can
be done- the question is whether any one person can make the lifestyle
adjustments.
 
Considering this is "urban planning", your views are reasonable, but I
live in a rural area (not suburbia) and here, it is virtually
impossible to live without a car.

We have NO public transportation
We have NO taxis
We have NO stores within 1/2 mile
We have tremendously bad winters (mild winter this year, only 100'
inches of snow)
We have NO bike trails, etc.
Nearest store that sells clothing, etc. is 20 miles away.
I work out of the house, but need a car for business trips across the
state. For example, in about 2 weeks I am required to be at a meeting
that is about 300 miles from here. Not worth flying because the
airport is 50 miles from here (as is the train station).
My wife is a nurse at the nearest hospital -- 20 miles away.
Kids take school buses about 5 miles to school, if that's public
transport.
For sporting events, the kids often have to go great distances. Last
weekend it was about 200 miles (each way). Sometimes the Nation rents
a bus and sometimes they don't.

Going off topic a bit more, I find it interesting how differently we
measure distance. You measure it is blocks and we tend to measure it
is minutes. The hospital is 25 minutes away, which I am sure has some
way of being converted into blocks and/or bike miles.

So a car is a necessity in a rural area. However, what is NOT
necessary for most people is a big-ole SUV. I take my Taurus off the
road more than most people take their Hummers off the road (in fact, I
don't think I have ever seen a Hummer off of pavement).

OTOH, it is scary to think that right now, the tallest structure in
this community of about 5,000 is a 8 story parking garage. But that
isn't for the locals, it's for the casino. Next to it, the Nation is
building a 14 story hotel. It is sort of strange to see such a large
structure in such a rural area. But it's jobs ....

City v. Rural is just another example of how truly diverse the country
is.
 
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark Hickey wrote:
>> "Jack May" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> Whereupon I commented on the myopia. The delusion that anyone, you and
> me included, can foresee all possible repercussions on
> society/environment of any new technology, or even existing technology,
> is hubris.

No body can see all the repercussion of each breath you take the
repercussions of you dying

Asking for perfection in every action means nothing can be done which also
leads repercussion that can not be done. So all you have done is to demand
something that impossible to do as a basis for everything that is done.

Makes absolutely no sense at all.

To follow your "logic" you should never post anything because nobody can see
all the repercussions of you posting.
 
"Max Penn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> "Jack May" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > Typical answer of an idealist with no rational understanding of
>> > society.
>>
>> Or perhaps just someone who's not stuck inside the same mental box that
>> you are?
>
> Mental...or metal? :)

He doesn't know, just another talking parrot type person.
 
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