It's killing me but..........

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Sillyoldtwit, Jan 24, 2006.

  1. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    BP, I've been tempted in following one of the TR base plans. I have seen quite a few report good results on picking one of their plans to follow.
     


  2. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    I have never been very good at following plans, except the year I had a professional coach, but did do quite well with the 40km TT plan last year and then a 14 day VO2 booster from Jesper somebody, that I did pretty much right before I went to the Alps.

    Not sure how easy it will be to replicate the TR Traditional base plans as I want to ride mostly on the road when possible, but it looks like it should be possible to recreate most of the sessions until they start to get more interval focused. By the end of a cold, wet & windy Jan on the road I'll probably be looking forward to the Kickr again anyway!

    Having said that, I just clicked on the link to the plans and they have changed the layout considerably overnight and a quick delve into the plans suggests they have also edited some of the plans. The mid- and high-volume base plans certainly look different....
     
  3. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    I looked at the new TrainerRoad format and training plans this morning. I think I will stick with my own schedule again for this season. I kind of have a more specific idea of what I would like to achieve, but a big part of it is fitting it with my life schedule.

    I have a new clean spreadsheet that tonight I will enter the first workout for 2015. The spreadsheet is only for the indoor rides. The weekend rides outside will not be entered into the spreadsheet. All data trends will be will observed in WKO PMC to make sure that I manage the CTL ramp rate. My first workout tonight I will probably set the intensity at the lower end of L4 and then incrementally step up each week if adaptation goes well.

    [​IMG]

    I am looking forward to getting this started and see how it goes. It went well last fall and the results out on the road were good.
    The Bests column will be MMP for 5 to 20 minute targets for a while. I will target 30 and 60 later on the longer weekend rides once it warms up. For now the winter rides will be lower intensity.

    This may not be the best plan for an aspiring racer, but since I am recreational it more like an experiment to see how my body reacts/adapts. I know most people will be in a "base build" type of mode at this point of the season, but I would like to see how this plays out with short intense efforts during the week and long lower intensity on the weekend kind of hitting both ends. Big thing for me is to be consistent, add volume to my week incrementally and focus on targeting improvements at certain durations.
     
  4. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    I find that it takes a lot to lose long distance endurance but not much at all to lose top end, so you'll likely find that you'll make gains alround doing the intervals mid week and outdoor rides on the weekend. Even if I was still racing I'd think that I'd be better off at least incorporating some sub 8 minute and sub 1 minute work on a regular basis. I never excelled at the short stuff and I don't recall even plateauing even after 12 weeks of interval and racing during the year back in the day. As for me, last year was another year ruled by work and consequently beer. As a result I'm almost back to where I was 10 years ago with regards to weight. Thankfully the legs are in better shape than they were 10 years ago when I got back on the bike after a 9 year layoff. Had some 'fun' checking out a local flat Strava segment that was 4 miles long and always has a nice crosswind. 23mph on the road bike and not up chucking carrots afterwards was better than I expected given my past 6 months. I'm at that point though where I either have to shit or get off the pot - scrambling at the start of the year to lose big weight for events in June/July has got old. Due to work training won't be structured per se, on the nights where I get home too late it'll be stretching and some basic core work. When I'm not home late it'll be on the trainer. I may only get two sessions in per week on the bike but that'll mean 5 nights of much needed stretching and basic core work. Trainer sessions will initially be: Warm up 25 minutes on - L3 initially, L4 when I'm not a complete cabbage 5 minutes rest Repeat the above twice initially, then 3 times. At the top end of L4 do several ~2 minute efforts whilst relaxing. Get a feel for the gear and how to stay on top of it while under pressure. Ease of when I can't relax and end up feeling the quads too much. My pelvis is rotated so much that NASA mistakenly believed for a while that the Earth rotates around it... I'm not forcing anything for a while.
     
  5. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    Thanks swampy
    It is and has been an interesting experiment both for what might happen out of this structure polarizing between shorter more intense weekday intervals and long low intensity rides on the weekend. Even though I have no events scheduled this is like playing a game of chess to me in the holistic training stress load. More so than even the real results out on the road. I am just experimenting with this concept at the moment.

    I was happy to get it kicked off last night by just easing into the structure for the next couple weeks. I started last night by lowering the target a few watts and will step up a couple watts per week in each training session. Tonight I have 2 x 20 and will likely start my target at 90% of FTP and incrementally go up each week - hopefully. In the last block what I found was how residual fatigue plays a role during the training week and how to set targets for subsequent nights. Kind of a getting to know me sort of thing. Train enough to cause stress, but not so much that I am over stressed type of balance. I should probably focus on longer intervals at this time of the year with more of a SST type, but I am just too curious to see how this will play out.

    Nothing impressive here, but this is a screen shot of last night's workout sticking to the programmed workout from TrainerRoad, but dropping the target a few watts for the start of this training block. My legs felt good, but cardio was a little behind. It is usually the other way around so I lost some fitness during the holidays and breathing was more labored. I can tell that those extra few pounds were stressing me a bit more. Glad that watts/kg don't play a role on the indoor trainer :) Trying to also get all calories sorted out now as well and start losing some weight.

    [​IMG]


    I can understand what you are saying about work and the aches with training. I just about feel like at any second my back and hips are going to go into full revolt. This is also why I am not in a rush and will ramp up slowly. I hope you get all the kinks worked out.
     
  6. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    2 more steady hours today although due to the high winds blowing all day I will hesitate to say 'easy'... CTL reached the heady heights of 44 though after 12 hours in the last 6 days, so times are good ;)

    Better news is I have a couple of events in the diary with a long term cycling friend to focus me. Early season 100km hilly reliability ride in a month, 3 days and 350 miles around the SW of England at the end of May and then 200 miles on our annual Tommy Godwin memorial club ride in mid June. A bit of TT'ing around the edges and that should give me some stuff to focus on. This year I really need to enter a 25 miler and get under the hour. That'll do for now....
     
  7. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    I've taken the opposite approach this year. If I don't have time to ride, I stretch. Slow, gentle stretches done symmetrically. Psoas and quads first, hamstrings, glutes next, then back to Psoas and quads, rinse and repeat... Each time a little deeper. Then shoulders and upper back, the calf muscles. Sure it's not on the bike training but for now I'm getting as much, if not more, than riding. I get to get out of bed in the morning and not walk like an ape for a few minutes or have a real sore back when I do ride for a couple of hours. I've not had that "oh, crap I'm going to seize up" feeling for at least a few weeks. It's been nice!
     
  8. jiberish2014

    jiberish2014 New Member

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    Glad to see some life in this thread :). Swampy it sounds like you're informally doing yoga, if you can get past the stereotypes (or youtube a routine) you will be surprised at how enjoyable it is.

    My FTP kind of stalled out and it's because my base just isn't there for much more improvement. Gas exchange says aerobic threshold is at 140 watts, the other 90 on my FTP is an anaerobic contribution. So less threshold and a lot more LSD for a while. Any tips on making those hours more bearable?
     
  9. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

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    I have nothing against yoga - heck, hot girls in tight clothing... sign me up. :p I'm just getting around to doing all the stuff that was recommened to me over the years. How to make hours more bearable? Go ride somewhere fun, throw in some interesting sections - a hill you like, maybe a Strava segment, road signs on the way back into town... If it's indoors then chop it down into manageable chunks. I prefer 25 minutes on with 5 minutes break - rinse and repeat as needed. For longer intervals like that I listen to some up tempo music. For intervals less than 5 minutes I ditch the music as I can't keep the required concentration...
     
  10. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

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    BP, have you seen some of the recent discussions about being able to use your power meter to control the Kickr? I just about have everything setup to give it a try this evening. This will allow us to eliminate one step in recording the data and faking out the TrainerRoad workouts. I currently have my FTP up by 15 watts inside TrainerRoad due to the difference between the two.

    From some other users that have it setup in the last day or two they are using their power meters to control and record the workout by overriding the Kickr's power.

    If you have not seen the discussions let me know I will point you to the topic.
     
  11. jkoch

    jkoch New Member

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    I started reading this thread about a week ago when I was researching sweet spot training, and I've read 90 pages so far. Very informative, and I can't wait to find out if Tyson ever got his 300W FTP and if he and RD raced each other up Mt. Charleston in 2007.
     
  12. Jon89

    Jon89 New Member

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    Over the last couple of weeks i've read this whole thread! There's loads of great information here(Particular thanks to rapdaddyo, Dave and SOT for starting the thread)
    Amazing to think that after however many years the same guys are still here trying to improve.

    Anyway I'm training at the moment for the santini gran fondo un June which includes the mortirolo and stelvio. Currently I have an FTP 300W(measured using CP method) and I weigh 71Kgs
    I'm hoping to get down to 60-65Kgs and 320FTP.
    As i'm a student after exams I'm planning on putting 20+ hours in mostly splitting the rides in to 2 2hour rides 5 days a week at L2 with some L3 intervals thrown in and a shorter ride at SST for 1 hour on the other day. I'm curious whether it would be advised to do one longer ride in a day instead of splitting them up and if adding L3/SST intervals in to some of the 2 hour rides is a good idea? I'm planning on decreasing the volume and adding more L4/5 intensity about 2 months out from the ride.
    I'm just not sure with this amount of training volume what would be the best way to use it for maximum gains to sustainable power.
     
  13. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    Wow! The entire thread? Well done. Glad you found lots of good info. And, you've got great W/kg numbers. You should come climb Mt. Charleston next October. If you reach your goal of >5 W/kg, you will be in contention for the podium. If I'm fit, I'll be there.

    As to your training plan, I don't have any problem with the 2/day approach if you feel sufficiently recovered the next day. When you push your weekly volume up to ~20 hrs, the issue (if there is an issue) will be with cumulative fatigue. I actually do a lot of my training with a fairly high level of cumulative fatigue, but each person is different in terms of how much total training volume they can handle (physically and mentally).

    My primary problem with your plan is the relative lack of L4/L5 until you are ~2 months out from the ride. I think you will see better results if you include at least L4 from the outset, even if it means long recovery segments at an L1/L2 intensity between L4 segments. Your average power of a ride with L4/L2 may be about the same as a relatively constant-power L3 ride, but the benefit will be greater.
     
  14. Jon89

    Jon89 New Member

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    thanks for the quick reply :)

    to be clear when I say L3 i'm talking about mostly 2x20 at 85-90% FTP so close to L4. as i've never trained circa 4/5 months at 20+ hour weeks i just want to make sure I don't commit to doing lots of L4 and then burning out.
     
  15. Jon89

    Jon89 New Member

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    also i'd love to do the Mt Charleston hill climb but it's quite far from cold, wet Manchester in England, biggest climbs I get are about 15min long :(
     
  16. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    A training plan has two parts. The first part is deciding how much total volume you want to do in light of your schedule and other commitments. For most of us, we're looking at a maximum number of available hours for riding of 10-15 hours/week. You're fortunate to be able to increase your volume to ~20 hrs/week. The choice of total training volume defines your scarce resource for allocation, hours or TSS. If total training volume is less than about 15 hours/week, then your scarce resource is hours. If training volume is 20+ hours/week, then your scarce resource is TSS.

    Regardless of your scarce resource for planning purposes, you can choose how to allocate the resource. I view this process as defining two pie charts. The first pie chart is the split between high-intensity (L4+) and low-intensity (L1-L3). The second pie chart is the split between components of high-intensity. My training plans typically have high-intensity of between 50%-65%. My second pie chart typically has at least 50% in L4, depending on how far out my next target event is and the demands of my next target event.

    But, fundamentally, I recommend using the WKO+ Performance Manager approach to deciding how much training volume your body can handle. If you don't have WKO+, then use weekly TSS. Just gradually ramp up total weekly TSS until you find that your next week's training rides are compromised by cumulative fatigue. That's the key question. Each of us have a different answer to that question. For me, it's about 1500 TSS points per week. That's not a recommendation, just a data point.
     
  17. Jon89

    Jon89 New Member

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    thanks rapdaddyo, I've just got WKO+ actually and it's very interesting looking at the PMC for the last year and how it corresponds to my form. So when ramping up TSS would you recommend starting at a lower volume and higher intensity and then increasing TSS by adding volume rather than having a high volume at a lower intensity and increasing TSS by adding L4/5 intervals
     
  18. RapDaddyo

    RapDaddyo Active Member

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    The concept behind TSS is that 100 TSS points is 100 TSS points whether it results from 1 hr at 100%FTP or from 1.5 hrs at 80%FTP. But, from an adaptation perspective, the two rides are worlds apart. FWIW, I never go out with the objective of riding entirely at <L4. OTOH, I do all of my early high-intensity efforts at the bottom end of the level, in order to maximize my volume for the level. Does that make sense?
     
  19. Jon89

    Jon89 New Member

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    yes that makes sense. When training less hours a week it was very simple for me in that I knew that time was the limiter and to spend lots of time in L4. However with comitting to more training hours things are a bit more complicated(or maybe i'm making them more complicated?) in terms of managing Volume/Intensity and getting the desired adaptations.
     
  20. Bigpikle

    Bigpikle New Member

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    I've totally missed all of this - if there is a link to the instructions then I'd be very interested, thanks.

    Work got in the way last week with training time severely reduced and then ice arrived just as time came available. Decided to dust off the rollers for the first time in a year and cracked out a couple of pyramid interval sessions this weekend - just working up and down the cassette doing 1 min per gear at a steady 90-94 rpm cadence. No specific rest periods and just using the easier gears to recover on the downside of each pyramid. Short of time on Sat I managed 3 and then today had time for 4. Gets a good high L3/low L4 NP depending on how much warm up/down easy time you give and keeps it a nice aerobic session for this time of the year. Got home in time for a steady hour last thing today to make it a 2-a-day.

    Lots of time the next 2 weeks but sadly it looks like a high risk of ice most days so not sure what it means for plan A of getting some 2.30-3.00 daily rides in? Dont feel ready for higher intensity work yet and was really hoping for another 12-15hrs a week for the next couple of weeks. We'll see....
     
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