Landis not happy with Lance....
- Thread starter whiteboytrash
- Start date
It's interesting to note how touchy people get around here, come TDF time. When it's over, we can go back to the acceptable level of bile...
Seeing as to how Floyd left DC/Postal, he probably wasn't happy. Well, duh! Lance had taken Floyd under his wing, and may well have been a bit miffed when he followed Tyler over to Phonak.
Lance did take Floyd in when he was flat broke and had no palmares to speak of, and got him into the Tour. And just as Floyd was starting to live up to the faith that had been placed in him - he leaves for Phonak. It's a safe bet that Floyd wouldn't be #1 on a major cycling team today without Lance's support in being on a Tour team at all, so he might want to show a bit of gratitude.
We have to remember that when Floyd jumped ship, it was to be Tyler's domestique. At the time, no one knew that events would lead to Floyd running the team. Lucky fellow, but he shouldn't forget how he got to his present position - talent, good fortune, and a lot of help from The Boss.
Seeing as to how Floyd left DC/Postal, he probably wasn't happy. Well, duh! Lance had taken Floyd under his wing, and may well have been a bit miffed when he followed Tyler over to Phonak.
Lance did take Floyd in when he was flat broke and had no palmares to speak of, and got him into the Tour. And just as Floyd was starting to live up to the faith that had been placed in him - he leaves for Phonak. It's a safe bet that Floyd wouldn't be #1 on a major cycling team today without Lance's support in being on a Tour team at all, so he might want to show a bit of gratitude.
We have to remember that when Floyd jumped ship, it was to be Tyler's domestique. At the time, no one knew that events would lead to Floyd running the team. Lucky fellow, but he shouldn't forget how he got to his present position - talent, good fortune, and a lot of help from The Boss.
whiteboytrash said:
JohnO said:
You make it sound like LA was helping out a charity case. I don't see LA putting anyone on the team for any reason other than -- wait for it -- it helps LA win the TdF!
Gratitude does not include staying at DC for less money, or fewer opportunies to lead in minor races, or whatever the reasons were that Landis left. DC is a business, Landis is an employee. That is my impression of how things are handled at DC.
I tend to agree. If Lance indeed treats his professional cycling career as a business and his teammates as valued subordinates, then his teammates have the right to consider their obligations to Lance in a similarly dispassionate manner. So long as Landis did not violate the terms of his contract, he had the right to further his career as he saw fit. Maybe he owed Lance a debt of gratitude, but gratitude can be conveyed by a mere expression of thanks. Doesn't mean he had to treat his career as one of an indentured domestique.JRMDC said:
MJtje said:
Salary Review :
Employee : "I want more money. The going rate for the job is 40% more than you're paying me, now"
Employer : "You're working for a great company, great boss, be happy with your lot".
Employee "Not while I am being paid 40% less than my peers"
Clash of personalities indeed.
I'm curious as to if this was the reason. Many things have been said about LA & Discovery in the public but I have never read anything about salaries being an issue........ I may have missed it. There is an other side to it. Being an American and getting endorsements this side of the Alantic has everything to do with his attachment to LA. LA is a household name. LA is associated with USPS & Discovery. Outside of a few Americans who follow the TDF for other reasons then just the LA bandwagon , nobody but Landis's family really cares what Landis does. As much as I hate the fact , cycling in this country will be non-exsistent as far the Euro scene as soon as LA leaves. Oh , the TDF will get a few minutes every week on ESPN, but the commercials shown will get more of the publics attention then the race.limerickman said:
Landis knows he would never be the team leader on Discovery. He also knows LA has all the Trek/Nike endorsements tied up. And so if he had the ability to possibly win the TDF, he would have to look elsewhere for endorsement deals. Europe is the only place. With Discovery being partially owned by LA , LA has everything tied up. LA like Lemond , is a good businessman. They know the money can keep flowing after they retire. Even if Landis wins 3 TDF's , he still will be an unknown this side of the Alantic by the general public. To follow LA act will be impossible.
The other day I was talking to a younger crit specialist and mountain biker. The name Hampsten came up. He asked "Who?" That is the condition of the sport in this country.
wolfix said:
While Lance might be a household name I don't think cycling will be non-exsistent. If there is money to be made then advertisers will choose another golden boy to get behind.
Also, knowing the name doesn't mean knowing the sport.
Not knowing the name Hampsten doesn't really reflect the state of affairs in the US.
I have many friends who live for cycling and follow the Tour as well as other races and they don't know many names of past greats.
I hope you are right about cycling not dropping off much. But it already has as far as TV coverage goes.... OLN showed bits & pieces of the Giro & it will be the same with the Vuelta. But LA has golden boy status because the American public grabbed on to his cancer recovery more then what he did at the TDF. If he won 7 TDF's without the cancer I doubt if we would have as much public exposure in this country of Euro cycling. And true, not knowing the history of the TDF and other American riders do not mean that you are not knowledgable about cycling. But as an American your knowledge about the TDF is limited if you do not know of Hampsten's ride on the Alp du Huez. Your friends who live for cycling may do so, but if they do not know the names of the American greats they are not knowledgeable about the TDF. Interested in the tour ..yes.roundsquare1 said:
From a business perspective, I would agree. Leaving DC and going to Phonak was a great move for Floyd - aside from money, it got him the leader's position at least a year early. He would have been next in line to lead DC. That may now go to GH, but he's close to retirement, too. I don't think he left for money - salary has never been a problem for that team. I suspect that Tyler was a bit less bombastic to work for.
And yes, LA was helping a charity case. There are plenty of talented people who just never get that lucky break. Floyd has had two of them, one courtesy of Lance, another courtesy of the flow cytometry test.
Regardless of the circumstances, sniping at the person who opened the door for you is not good form. I don't blame Floyd for leaving, but it would be in his best interests to steer clear of the subject altogether.
And yes, LA was helping a charity case. There are plenty of talented people who just never get that lucky break. Floyd has had two of them, one courtesy of Lance, another courtesy of the flow cytometry test.
Regardless of the circumstances, sniping at the person who opened the door for you is not good form. I don't blame Floyd for leaving, but it would be in his best interests to steer clear of the subject altogether.
JRMDC said:
I am curious as to why you feel so strongly that Landis was a charity case. Your next sentence is certainly true, but it doens't meen LA acted to do Landis a favor. Instead, LA acted because he saw potential in Landis. And he was right.JohnO said:
Do you have evidence that there was some prior relationship between the two, or other circumstance, sufficiently strong that LA would potentially weaken his TdF chances just to do some charity for Landis? Absent that evidence, this makes no sense...
It makes much more sense to me that Landis was grabbed for potential.
In relation to Landis - LA was quoted in Cycle Sport late 2003 - "Floyd Landis is a potentially a great cyclist. We have only begun to untap his potential and we're very excitied about just how far we think Floyd can go"
"Of all the signings we have had to USPS, I think Floyd Landis has the potential to go all the way"
That doesn't sound like a charity case to me : sounds more like a person who knows that Landis is a good cyclist.
"Of all the signings we have had to USPS, I think Floyd Landis has the potential to go all the way"
That doesn't sound like a charity case to me : sounds more like a person who knows that Landis is a good cyclist.
In Armstrong's book he claims to pay his riders above going rate and at the end of one tour he gave them all large cheque's (about which they were all suitably happy).
I always had the impression that he did this to (my words) suppress their personal ambition.
I always had the impression that he did this to (my words) suppress their personal ambition.
There may be no problem with DC salaries (taking into account individual TdF riders' contractual bonuses if LA wins the GC and taking into account the sharing of team winnings), but that doesn't mean that Landis didn't leave for money reasons. Phonak was offering him considerably more than DC was paying him. Bruyneel at the time suggested he might have been willing to match the Phonak monetary offer, but that Floyd seemed intent to leave. Floyd had been having certain internal fit issues within DC, as I understand it and as suggested by a recent book on that team.
musette said:
40% below the market rate suggests a real problem with DC salaries.
LA did top up the team winnings in the TDF 2004 : by the princely sum of
$25,000.00, according to Dave Harmon today on Eurosport.
Big deal.
In real money that's Euro 20,000 between 8 guys : works out at euro 2,500 per man.
Real generous, eh ?
mitosis said:
Dave Harmon just talked about this on Eurosport.
Santa Clause Armstrong added $25,000 to his teams prize money at the 2004
TDF.
That's $3,125 dollars per man :
Less than a dollar per kilometre !
Well, obviously if people were unhappy with their salaries or otherwise unhappy with DC, they would leave, wouldn't they? I don't know if the basic salaries used to calculate the % described includes the contractual bonus each TdF rider gets if LA wins the GC that year.
Also, Ace is being paid at least 800K (I think euros) because that was disclosed around the time that the economics of DC's receipt of compensation from Liberty Seguros for Heras was discussed.
Finally, there are many aspects of non-monetary compensation to DC domestiques. (1) "Making history" with LA, (2) High chance of glories of having leader win GC, (3) High visibility throughout the cycling world (e.g., Ace, Noval), (4) Likely sharing (at least while LA was around) in TTT win, (5) No pressure to get individual stage or other individual results, (6) Nice accommodations and a high budget (e.g., nicer hotels that CSC, nicer training camps in the US), (7) Team wins.
Also, Ace is being paid at least 800K (I think euros) because that was disclosed around the time that the economics of DC's receipt of compensation from Liberty Seguros for Heras was discussed.
Finally, there are many aspects of non-monetary compensation to DC domestiques. (1) "Making history" with LA, (2) High chance of glories of having leader win GC, (3) High visibility throughout the cycling world (e.g., Ace, Noval), (4) Likely sharing (at least while LA was around) in TTT win, (5) No pressure to get individual stage or other individual results, (6) Nice accommodations and a high budget (e.g., nicer hotels that CSC, nicer training camps in the US), (7) Team wins.
Did anyone else notice that www.cyclingnews.com has lifted the L'Equipe article
detailing what Landis said about LA.
It was on Cyclingnews yesterday and I notice that today the article has "disappeared".
Has LA's already overworked legal department, sent a shot across the cyclingnews bows ?
Curious.
detailing what Landis said about LA.
It was on Cyclingnews yesterday and I notice that today the article has "disappeared".
Has LA's already overworked legal department, sent a shot across the cyclingnews bows ?
Curious.
The notion that Armstrong and DC would have been able to put a team together including several exceptional climbers, a two-time Giro winner, the probable white jersey winner, and a 3-time defending TdF TTT winner by paying them 40% less than the going rate and then insulting them with bonus money does not compute.
In the meantime, a man with the credentials of Vinokourov made it public that the only team who's membership he covets other than T-Mobile is Discovery. If Disco is underpaying its ridership, he wouldn't be interested.
In the meantime, as has been noted, it is disingenuous to suggest that Armstrong is somehow disrespecting his teammates by giving them a small bonus at the end of the TdF. In the past, GC winners gave no bonuses to their teammates at all. As for Armstrong, he has typically followed the tradition among TdF winners, by distributing all of his personal GC prize money to his team. That is all that is expected of any GC winner, and that's all they typically ever do. I cannot find a link to what Armstrong did to supplement that bonus last year. If it was $25,000, then that's $25,000 more than a GC winner normally gives his teammates.
In 2002, Armstrong , Armstrong not only distributed all of his $400,000 prize to his team, he doubled it.
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/local/story_txt.asp?date=071303&ID=s1380969
In 2003, he did what is traditional and gave his team his entire $465,000 check -- no bonus. No one uttered a word about ingratitude or suggested he should have given more.
Last year, apparently, he gave them an additional $25,000, in addition to his winner's check, out of his own pocket. Certainly not a fortune for any of them, but more than is customary.
If Armstrong was insulting his teammates or if DC was being grossly underpaid, that team would not be able to maintain the quality of its riders. You think a guy like Salvoldelli would stand for being paid at 40% less than the going rate to serve as a domestique in the greatest race of all?
Finally, I find it interesting that Floyd Landis, even in the context of an article in which he takes issue with Lance's meanspiritedness, acknowledges that riders who serve him are rewarded for their efforts:
"I agreed that my job would be to help Lance. There was no reason for me to be unhappy in that role. I agreed to do it, and to do it as best I could. Certainly Lance pays bonuses to the guys that help him, so there's no reason to be.... I think it's clear that everybody coming into that team knows exactly what the role is, and rightfully so."
http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/news/articles/8339.0.html
In the meantime, I would appreciate a link from anyone confirming what L-man says has been "bandied about" (how wishy washy can you get?) that Discovery's riders (aside from Lance, of course) are paid on average 40% less than the market rate.
In the meantime, a man with the credentials of Vinokourov made it public that the only team who's membership he covets other than T-Mobile is Discovery. If Disco is underpaying its ridership, he wouldn't be interested.
In the meantime, as has been noted, it is disingenuous to suggest that Armstrong is somehow disrespecting his teammates by giving them a small bonus at the end of the TdF. In the past, GC winners gave no bonuses to their teammates at all. As for Armstrong, he has typically followed the tradition among TdF winners, by distributing all of his personal GC prize money to his team. That is all that is expected of any GC winner, and that's all they typically ever do. I cannot find a link to what Armstrong did to supplement that bonus last year. If it was $25,000, then that's $25,000 more than a GC winner normally gives his teammates.
In 2002, Armstrong , Armstrong not only distributed all of his $400,000 prize to his team, he doubled it.
http://www.spokesmanreview.com/local/story_txt.asp?date=071303&ID=s1380969
In 2003, he did what is traditional and gave his team his entire $465,000 check -- no bonus. No one uttered a word about ingratitude or suggested he should have given more.
Last year, apparently, he gave them an additional $25,000, in addition to his winner's check, out of his own pocket. Certainly not a fortune for any of them, but more than is customary.
If Armstrong was insulting his teammates or if DC was being grossly underpaid, that team would not be able to maintain the quality of its riders. You think a guy like Salvoldelli would stand for being paid at 40% less than the going rate to serve as a domestique in the greatest race of all?
Finally, I find it interesting that Floyd Landis, even in the context of an article in which he takes issue with Lance's meanspiritedness, acknowledges that riders who serve him are rewarded for their efforts:
"I agreed that my job would be to help Lance. There was no reason for me to be unhappy in that role. I agreed to do it, and to do it as best I could. Certainly Lance pays bonuses to the guys that help him, so there's no reason to be.... I think it's clear that everybody coming into that team knows exactly what the role is, and rightfully so."
http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/news/articles/8339.0.html
In the meantime, I would appreciate a link from anyone confirming what L-man says has been "bandied about" (how wishy washy can you get?) that Discovery's riders (aside from Lance, of course) are paid on average 40% less than the market rate.
