Mountain Biking Humor



On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:43:08 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
..> wrote:
..>
..> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting hiking
..> .> injuries
..> .> .> .> that
..> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling, you
..> are
..> .> .> posting
..> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is this
..> .> "thinking
..> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..> .> .> .> .
..> .> .> .<content clipped>
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on trails,
..> .> where
..> .> .> .> they
..> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .Your opinion.
..> .> .>
..> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..> National
..> .> .> Park....
..> .> .
..> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles of
..> trails
..> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..> mountain
..> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is outside the
..> .> realm
..> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..> .> conquering
..> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special that
..> it
..> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..> designated
..> .> as
..> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal value." -
..> from
..> .> .the Yosemite website.
..> .>
..> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned mountain
..> .> biking,
..> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site. But
..> they
..> .> CARE
..> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL human
..> .activity is negative.
..>
..> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with selected
.."proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking. It isn't.

Liar.

You
..haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your "science" means nothing
..because you present it with no balance.


..> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is operated by
..> a
..> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human alone, is
..> .negative.
..>
..> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see below).
..Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..>
..> .We do not subscribe to the notion that your narrow perspective does
..> anything
..> .to move us forward in preserving anything except your ego and your
..> platform
..> .to spew it on. We do subscribe to the notion that in order to PRESERVE
..> the
..> .rapidly declining habitat you claim to cherish, we ALL must get together
..> in
..> .speaking out where it will do the most good. You talk a good game on
..> "road
..> .construction" but your energy is spent on getting bicycles off of your
..> .hiking trails. You can't even visualize a bicycle in the woods. So much
..> so
..> .it seems you would rather have no habitat if it were to be shared with
..> human
..> .occupied bicycles.
..> .Beyond all that, your pathetic and small minded philosophy is obvious
..> when
..> .you generalize, again, with your comment that mtbrs are "dense". You are
..> so
..> .arrogant to believe your "care about nature" is more real than anyone
..> else.
..> .Your way is NOT the only way. Your view is NOT the only view. To believe
..> .that, is DENSE.
..> .Oh... and watch your back.
..>
..> Your threat is duly noted.
..Not a threat, you paranoid goofball... just a "heads up" on the actions
..taking place right now to get real information into the public about cycling
..at the EBMU.
..>
..> The EBMU is one of the topics of discussion in
..> .California and you may see bicycles there yet.
..> .>
..> .> .In this historic context, it is hardly an example of a multi-use park
..> .> .system.
..> .> .Prime Minister Blair shares opinions with George W. Bush... Do you
..> .> believe
..> .> .that because these opinions are shared by World Leaders that they are
..> the
..> .> .only opinions or that they are more valid than others?
..> .> .>
..> .> .> Your attempts to make it "fact" by posting jokes, stories of
..> .> .> .death, and selective contexts do not change that it is still an
..> .> opinion.
..> .> .> You
..> .> .> .may draw whatever conclusion you like and present your theory. In
..> no
..> .> way
..> .> .> .should you expect that to be the only conclusion to be drawn or the
..> .> only
..> .> .> .theory that can be presented.
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> ===
..> .> .> .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> .> .> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> .> .> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..>
..> March 24, 1996
..> Sierra Club Board of Directors, Wild Planet Strategy Team, &
..> Off-Road Vehicle Subcommittee
..> 730 Polk Street
..> San Francisco, California 94109
..>
..> Re: "Harmless" Recreation Kills Wildlife!
..>
..> Gentlepersons:
..>
..> It has been customary for people to assume that when we are not directly
..> harming wildlife, we are not harming them. Besides being a convenient
..> rationalization, this assumption is understandable: we assume that others,
..> even
..> members of other species, are like us. We don't feel very threatened by
..> the
..> presence of other species; we are, after all, the top predator. We also
..> live
..> surrounded by plenty; most of us can't imagine what it is like to go
..> hungry for
..> even one day. Wildlife, however, does usually feel very threatened by our
..> presence, and many organisms exist on a very tight (food/energy) budget.
..> Also,
..> they often have much greater visual and auditory acuity than we do, and
..> hence
..> can be disturbed by sensations that we wouldn't even notice. Amphibians,
..> for
..> example, are extremely sensitive to vibrations.
..>
..> "Traditionally, observing, feeding, and photographing wildlife were
..> considered to be 'nonconsumptive' activities because removal of animals
..> from
..> their natural habitats did not occur.... nonconsumptive wildlife
..> recreation was
..> considered relatively benign in terms of its effects on wildlife; today,
..> however, there is a growing recognition that wildlife-viewing recreation
..> can
..> have serious negative impacts on wildlife" (Knight & Gutzwiller, p.257).
..>
..> Technology has made it much easier for people to reach wildlife habitat,
..> including areas where access used to be difficult, such as cliff faces,
..> caves,
..> under water, and inhospitable climates. Roads, trails, ORVs, mountain
..> bikes,
..> high-tech camping gear, freeze-dried foods, and even waterproof maps are
..> some of
..> the tools that allow people to travel far into wilderness in great
..> comfort. That
..> and increasing population have squeezed and frightened wildlife out of its
..> preferred habitat, both temporarily and permanently, depriving it of
..> needed
..> foods, shelter, and choice of mates. Roads are particularly pernicious,
..> because
..> they not only give humans easy access to wilderness, but they fragment
..> habitat,
..> because many cover-adapted species are afraid to cross them.
..>
..> Speed is a big factor. Being encased in a motor vehicle greatly reduces
..> the sensations that you experience. Thus in order to obtain the equivalent
..> physical experience that a hiker acquires in a short walk through the
..> woods
..> (complete with sounds, sights, smells, tastes, and touch), you have to
..> drive a
..> great distance! Similarly, a mountain biker travels too fast to fully
..> appreciate
..> his/her surroundings, and thus soon gets bored with the trail and needs to
..> experience another (and another and another). This is one reason why
..> mountain
..> bikers are never satisfied, no matter how many trails they have access to,
..> and
..> why they are exerting such tremendous pressure on land managers around the
..> world
..> to give them ever greater access. (I asked one of them if there were any
..> limit
..> to this process. He told me that no one would ever want to bike Mt.
..> Everest.
..> However, only a few days later I saw an advertizement for a mountain bike
..> trip
..> to Mt. Everest!)
..>
..> Here are some of the damaging effects that the mere presence of a human
..> can have on wildlife: When an animal is guarding a nest, it can be scared
..> away
..> ("flushed") for some time, at least while a human is present. Besides
..> using up
..> energy that may not be plentiful, eggs and young are left exposed to
..> dangerous
..> temperatures (hot or cold) and predators. The movement of the parent, or
..> sometimes the odor of the human, can direct predators to the nest, causing
..> the
..> death of some of the young. Sometimes the parent in its rush steps on an
..> egg or
..> knocks it or its young out of the nest, leading to certain death for the
..> offspring. Some parents may even abandon the nest or kill and eat the
..> young, if
..> they are frightened or startled enough. Young can get left behind when a
..> parent
..> flushes suddenly, get lost, and die of starvation or be eaten by a
..> predator.
..>
..> The stress of disturbance can increase energy needs, elevate heart rate
..> (possibly leading to death), force the animal to temporarily or
..> permanently
..> abandon a feeding area, force it to become nocturnal, force it to spend a
..> great
..> amount of time watching for humans, interfere with reproduction, and in
..> general
..> decrease its productivity. Migratory birds, for example, have a limited
..> amount
..> of time to stock up on food before their trip. They often spend long
..> periods
..> flying over ocean, and can die if they don't have adequate nutritional
..> reserves.
..>
..> Because the Earth is losing some 100 species a day, worldwide, it is
..> very important that we quickly become better informed, and stop mindlessly
..> continuing "business as usual" in our approaches to wildlife and
..> recreation.
..>
..> Here are some relevant excerpts from Knight and Gutzwiller: "the notion
..> that recreation has no environmental impacts is no longer tenable.
..> Recreationists often degrade the land, water, and wildlife resources that
..> support their activities by simplifying plant communities, increasing
..> animal
..> mortality, displacing and disturbing wildlife, and distributing refuse"
..> (p.3);
..> Boyle and Sampson ... reviewed 166 articles that contained original data
..> on the
..> effects of nonconsumptive outdoor recreation on wildlife. In 81% of them,
..> the
..> effects were considered negative" (p.51); "Nature viewing, by its very
..> definition, has great potential to negatively affect wildlife. ...
..> Predators
..> learn to follow human scent trails to nest sites" (p.55); "activities
..> [involving] nonmotorized travel ... [have] caused the creation of more ...
..> trails in wildlands.... These activities are extensive in nature and have
..> the
..> ability to disrupt wildlife in many ways, particularly by displacing
..> animals
..> from an area" (p.56); "Recreational disturbance has traditionally been
..> viewed as
..> most detrimental to wildlife during the breeding season. Recently, it has
..> become
..> apparent that disturbance outside of the animal's breeding season may have
..> equally severe effects" (p.73); "Birds can lose eggs and young when
..> predators
..> attack nests after parents are startled into flight" (p.133); "Human
..> occupation
..> and activity are clearly and directly correlated with declines in breeding
..> populations of birds" (p.135).
..>
..> "People have an impact on wildlife habitat and all that depends on it,
..> no matter what the activity" (p.157); "Perhaps the major way that people
..> have
..> influenced wildlife populations is through encroachment into wildlife
..> areas"
..> (p.160); "a single visit to nest sites by people can cause nest
..> abandonment"
..> (p.161); "Some goslings got lost in the dense vegetation when parents
..> headed for
..> the pool, or parents swam off leaving goslings behind that could not
..> follow"
..> (p.162); "Pregnant animals suffered higher stress from wildlife viewers,
..> causing
..> some to abort" (p.163); "Outdoor recreation has been recognized as an
..> important
..> factor that can reduce biosphere sustainability.... Indeed, recreational
..> activities, including many that may seem innocuous, can alter vertebrate
..> behaviour, reproduction, distributions, and habitats" (p.169); "Human
..> disturbance caused eagles to flush sooner than the other species, and
..> eagles
..> rarely returned to a carcass following disturbance" (p.170); "Juveniles
..> that get
..> displaced from familiar surroundings (e.g., home ranges) by recreationists
..> may
..> also be more susceptible to predation" (p.172).
..>
..> "Displaced animals are forced out of familiar habitat and must then
..> survive and reproduce in areas where they are not familiar with the
..> locations of
..> food, shelter, and other vital resources.... Hammitt and Cole ... ranked
..> displacement as being more detrimental to wildlife than harassment or
..> recreation-induced habitat changes.... Densities ... of 13 breeding bird
..> species
..> were negatively associated with the intensity of recreation activity by
..> park
..> visitors, primarily pedestrians and cyclists" (pp.173-4); "off-road
..> vehicles can
..> collapse burrows of desert mammals and reptiles" (p.176); "Compaction
..> increases
..> the mechanical resistance of the soil to root penetration and can reduce
..> the
..> emergence of seedlings" (p.184); "Soil compaction reduces the size of pore
..> spaces, altering the soil fauna" (p.189); "several studies have shown the
..> importance of contiguous, undisturbed habitat for many native species"
..> (p.190);
..> "Recreational activities clearly have substantial and generally adverse
..> influences on terrestrial vegetation and soil, and on aquatic systems"
..> (p.193);
..> "researchers have documented an increase in heart rate in different
..> species when
..> approached by visitors, which can subsequently initiate other
..> physiological
..> effects of stress, including death" (p.206); "Indirect effects may also
..> occur
..> from development of trail networks and picnic areas, which not only remove
..> habitat, but increase habitat edge ... [, opening] these areas for
..> colonization
..> by exotic ... species" (p.210); "Geese could not compensate for a loss in
..> feeding time" (p.251); "The ESA defines harassment as 'an intentional or
..> negligent act or omission which creates the likelihood of injury to
..> wildlife by
..> annoying it to such an extent as to significantly disrupt normal behaviour
..> patterns which include, but are not limited to, feeding or sheltering'"
..> (p.304).
..>
..> "It is expected that outdoor recreational activity will continue to
..> increase, while the amount of wild land where wildlife may seek refuge
..> from
..> disturbance will decrease" (p.327); "Recreationists are, ironically,
..> destroying
..> the very thing they love: the blooming buzzing confusion of nature.... The
..> recreation industry deserves to be listed on the same page with interests
..> that
..> are cutting the last of the old-growth forests, washing fertile topsoils
..> into
..> the sea, and pouring billions of tons of greenhouse gases into the
..> atmosphere"
..> (p.340); "Tom Birch ... argues that wilderness managers, charged with
..> incarcerating wilderness, are more concerned with the advancement of their
..> careers through achieving quantifiable goals (number of park visitors,
..> total
..> revenues) and developing park and forest amenities (roads, 'scenic'
..> turnouts,
..> restrooms, paved trails, maps, campgrounds) than with perpetuating the
..> land
..> community of which they are a part" (p.344).
..>
..> Ideally, we should be working to reduce all human access to wildlife
..> habitat. But at the very least, we should eliminate mechanical access
..> (with the
..> exception of small compromises for wheelchairs).
..>
..> Sincerely,
..>
..> Michael J. Vandeman,
..> Ph.D.
..>
..> References:
..>
..> Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
..> Recreationists.
..> Covelo, California: Island Press, c.1995.
..>
..>
..> ===
..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..>
..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:43:08 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
..> wrote:
..>
..> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting hiking
..> .> injuries
..> .> .> .> that
..> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling, you
..> are
..> .> .> posting
..> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is this
..> .> "thinking
..> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..> .> .> .> .
..> .> .> .<content clipped>
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on trails,
..> .> where
..> .> .> .> they
..> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .Your opinion.
..> .> .>
..> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..> National
..> .> .> Park....
..> .> .
..> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles of
..> trails
..> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..> mountain
..> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is outside the
..> .> realm
..> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..> .> conquering
..> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special that
..> it
..> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..> designated
..> .> as
..> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal value." -
..> from
..> .> .the Yosemite website.
..> .>
..> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned mountain
..> .> biking,
..> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site. But
..> they
..> .> CARE
..> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL human
..> .activity is negative.
..>
..> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with selected
.."proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking. It isn't.

Liar.

You
..haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your "science" means nothing
..because you present it with no balance.


..> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is operated by
..> a
..> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human alone, is
..> .negative.
..>
..> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see below).
..Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..>
..> .We do not subscribe to the notion that your narrow perspective does
..> anything
..> .to move us forward in preserving anything except your ego and your
..> platform
..> .to spew it on. We do subscribe to the notion that in order to PRESERVE
..> the
..> .rapidly declining habitat you claim to cherish, we ALL must get together
..> in
..> .speaking out where it will do the most good. You talk a good game on
..> "road
..> .construction" but your energy is spent on getting bicycles off of your
..> .hiking trails. You can't even visualize a bicycle in the woods. So much
..> so
..> .it seems you would rather have no habitat if it were to be shared with
..> human
..> .occupied bicycles.
..> .Beyond all that, your pathetic and small minded philosophy is obvious
..> when
..> .you generalize, again, with your comment that mtbrs are "dense". You are
..> so
..> .arrogant to believe your "care about nature" is more real than anyone
..> else.
..> .Your way is NOT the only way. Your view is NOT the only view. To believe
..> .that, is DENSE.
..> .Oh... and watch your back.
..>
..> Your threat is duly noted.
..Not a threat, you paranoid goofball... just a "heads up" on the actions
..taking place right now to get real information into the public about cycling
..at the EBMU.
..>
..> The EBMU is one of the topics of discussion in
..> .California and you may see bicycles there yet.
..> .>
..> .> .In this historic context, it is hardly an example of a multi-use park
..> .> .system.
..> .> .Prime Minister Blair shares opinions with George W. Bush... Do you
..> .> believe
..> .> .that because these opinions are shared by World Leaders that they are
..> the
..> .> .only opinions or that they are more valid than others?
..> .> .>
..> .> .> Your attempts to make it "fact" by posting jokes, stories of
..> .> .> .death, and selective contexts do not change that it is still an
..> .> opinion.
..> .> .> You
..> .> .> .may draw whatever conclusion you like and present your theory. In
..> no
..> .> way
..> .> .> .should you expect that to be the only conclusion to be drawn or the
..> .> only
..> .> .> .theory that can be presented.
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> ===
..> .> .> .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> .> .> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> .> .> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..>
..> March 24, 1996
..> Sierra Club Board of Directors, Wild Planet Strategy Team, &
..> Off-Road Vehicle Subcommittee
..> 730 Polk Street
..> San Francisco, California 94109
..>
..> Re: "Harmless" Recreation Kills Wildlife!
..>
..> Gentlepersons:
..>
..> It has been customary for people to assume that when we are not directly
..> harming wildlife, we are not harming them. Besides being a convenient
..> rationalization, this assumption is understandable: we assume that others,
..> even
..> members of other species, are like us. We don't feel very threatened by
..> the
..> presence of other species; we are, after all, the top predator. We also
..> live
..> surrounded by plenty; most of us can't imagine what it is like to go
..> hungry for
..> even one day. Wildlife, however, does usually feel very threatened by our
..> presence, and many organisms exist on a very tight (food/energy) budget.
..> Also,
..> they often have much greater visual and auditory acuity than we do, and
..> hence
..> can be disturbed by sensations that we wouldn't even notice. Amphibians,
..> for
..> example, are extremely sensitive to vibrations.
..>
..> "Traditionally, observing, feeding, and photographing wildlife were
..> considered to be 'nonconsumptive' activities because removal of animals
..> from
..> their natural habitats did not occur.... nonconsumptive wildlife
..> recreation was
..> considered relatively benign in terms of its effects on wildlife; today,
..> however, there is a growing recognition that wildlife-viewing recreation
..> can
..> have serious negative impacts on wildlife" (Knight & Gutzwiller, p.257).
..>
..> Technology has made it much easier for people to reach wildlife habitat,
..> including areas where access used to be difficult, such as cliff faces,
..> caves,
..> under water, and inhospitable climates. Roads, trails, ORVs, mountain
..> bikes,
..> high-tech camping gear, freeze-dried foods, and even waterproof maps are
..> some of
..> the tools that allow people to travel far into wilderness in great
..> comfort. That
..> and increasing population have squeezed and frightened wildlife out of its
..> preferred habitat, both temporarily and permanently, depriving it of
..> needed
..> foods, shelter, and choice of mates. Roads are particularly pernicious,
..> because
..> they not only give humans easy access to wilderness, but they fragment
..> habitat,
..> because many cover-adapted species are afraid to cross them.
..>
..> Speed is a big factor. Being encased in a motor vehicle greatly reduces
..> the sensations that you experience. Thus in order to obtain the equivalent
..> physical experience that a hiker acquires in a short walk through the
..> woods
..> (complete with sounds, sights, smells, tastes, and touch), you have to
..> drive a
..> great distance! Similarly, a mountain biker travels too fast to fully
..> appreciate
..> his/her surroundings, and thus soon gets bored with the trail and needs to
..> experience another (and another and another). This is one reason why
..> mountain
..> bikers are never satisfied, no matter how many trails they have access to,
..> and
..> why they are exerting such tremendous pressure on land managers around the
..> world
..> to give them ever greater access. (I asked one of them if there were any
..> limit
..> to this process. He told me that no one would ever want to bike Mt.
..> Everest.
..> However, only a few days later I saw an advertizement for a mountain bike
..> trip
..> to Mt. Everest!)
..>
..> Here are some of the damaging effects that the mere presence of a human
..> can have on wildlife: When an animal is guarding a nest, it can be scared
..> away
..> ("flushed") for some time, at least while a human is present. Besides
..> using up
..> energy that may not be plentiful, eggs and young are left exposed to
..> dangerous
..> temperatures (hot or cold) and predators. The movement of the parent, or
..> sometimes the odor of the human, can direct predators to the nest, causing
..> the
..> death of some of the young. Sometimes the parent in its rush steps on an
..> egg or
..> knocks it or its young out of the nest, leading to certain death for the
..> offspring. Some parents may even abandon the nest or kill and eat the
..> young, if
..> they are frightened or startled enough. Young can get left behind when a
..> parent
..> flushes suddenly, get lost, and die of starvation or be eaten by a
..> predator.
..>
..> The stress of disturbance can increase energy needs, elevate heart rate
..> (possibly leading to death), force the animal to temporarily or
..> permanently
..> abandon a feeding area, force it to become nocturnal, force it to spend a
..> great
..> amount of time watching for humans, interfere with reproduction, and in
..> general
..> decrease its productivity. Migratory birds, for example, have a limited
..> amount
..> of time to stock up on food before their trip. They often spend long
..> periods
..> flying over ocean, and can die if they don't have adequate nutritional
..> reserves.
..>
..> Because the Earth is losing some 100 species a day, worldwide, it is
..> very important that we quickly become better informed, and stop mindlessly
..> continuing "business as usual" in our approaches to wildlife and
..> recreation.
..>
..> Here are some relevant excerpts from Knight and Gutzwiller: "the notion
..> that recreation has no environmental impacts is no longer tenable.
..> Recreationists often degrade the land, water, and wildlife resources that
..> support their activities by simplifying plant communities, increasing
..> animal
..> mortality, displacing and disturbing wildlife, and distributing refuse"
..> (p.3);
..> Boyle and Sampson ... reviewed 166 articles that contained original data
..> on the
..> effects of nonconsumptive outdoor recreation on wildlife. In 81% of them,
..> the
..> effects were considered negative" (p.51); "Nature viewing, by its very
..> definition, has great potential to negatively affect wildlife. ...
..> Predators
..> learn to follow human scent trails to nest sites" (p.55); "activities
..> [involving] nonmotorized travel ... [have] caused the creation of more ...
..> trails in wildlands.... These activities are extensive in nature and have
..> the
..> ability to disrupt wildlife in many ways, particularly by displacing
..> animals
..> from an area" (p.56); "Recreational disturbance has traditionally been
..> viewed as
..> most detrimental to wildlife during the breeding season. Recently, it has
..> become
..> apparent that disturbance outside of the animal's breeding season may have
..> equally severe effects" (p.73); "Birds can lose eggs and young when
..> predators
..> attack nests after parents are startled into flight" (p.133); "Human
..> occupation
..> and activity are clearly and directly correlated with declines in breeding
..> populations of birds" (p.135).
..>
..> "People have an impact on wildlife habitat and all that depends on it,
..> no matter what the activity" (p.157); "Perhaps the major way that people
..> have
..> influenced wildlife populations is through encroachment into wildlife
..> areas"
..> (p.160); "a single visit to nest sites by people can cause nest
..> abandonment"
..> (p.161); "Some goslings got lost in the dense vegetation when parents
..> headed for
..> the pool, or parents swam off leaving goslings behind that could not
..> follow"
..> (p.162); "Pregnant animals suffered higher stress from wildlife viewers,
..> causing
..> some to abort" (p.163); "Outdoor recreation has been recognized as an
..> important
..> factor that can reduce biosphere sustainability.... Indeed, recreational
..> activities, including many that may seem innocuous, can alter vertebrate
..> behaviour, reproduction, distributions, and habitats" (p.169); "Human
..> disturbance caused eagles to flush sooner than the other species, and
..> eagles
..> rarely returned to a carcass following disturbance" (p.170); "Juveniles
..> that get
..> displaced from familiar surroundings (e.g., home ranges) by recreationists
..> may
..> also be more susceptible to predation" (p.172).
..>
..> "Displaced animals are forced out of familiar habitat and must then
..> survive and reproduce in areas where they are not familiar with the
..> locations of
..> food, shelter, and other vital resources.... Hammitt and Cole ... ranked
..> displacement as being more detrimental to wildlife than harassment or
..> recreation-induced habitat changes.... Densities ... of 13 breeding bird
..> species
..> were negatively associated with the intensity of recreation activity by
..> park
..> visitors, primarily pedestrians and cyclists" (pp.173-4); "off-road
..> vehicles can
..> collapse burrows of desert mammals and reptiles" (p.176); "Compaction
..> increases
..> the mechanical resistance of the soil to root penetration and can reduce
..> the
..> emergence of seedlings" (p.184); "Soil compaction reduces the size of pore
..> spaces, altering the soil fauna" (p.189); "several studies have shown the
..> importance of contiguous, undisturbed habitat for many native species"
..> (p.190);
..> "Recreational activities clearly have substantial and generally adverse
..> influences on terrestrial vegetation and soil, and on aquatic systems"
..> (p.193);
..> "researchers have documented an increase in heart rate in different
..> species when
..> approached by visitors, which can subsequently initiate other
..> physiological
..> effects of stress, including death" (p.206); "Indirect effects may also
..> occur
..> from development of trail networks and picnic areas, which not only remove
..> habitat, but increase habitat edge ... [, opening] these areas for
..> colonization
..> by exotic ... species" (p.210); "Geese could not compensate for a loss in
..> feeding time" (p.251); "The ESA defines harassment as 'an intentional or
..> negligent act or omission which creates the likelihood of injury to
..> wildlife by
..> annoying it to such an extent as to significantly disrupt normal behaviour
..> patterns which include, but are not limited to, feeding or sheltering'"
..> (p.304).
..>
..> "It is expected that outdoor recreational activity will continue to
..> increase, while the amount of wild land where wildlife may seek refuge
..> from
..> disturbance will decrease" (p.327); "Recreationists are, ironically,
..> destroying
..> the very thing they love: the blooming buzzing confusion of nature.... The
..> recreation industry deserves to be listed on the same page with interests
..> that
..> are cutting the last of the old-growth forests, washing fertile topsoils
..> into
..> the sea, and pouring billions of tons of greenhouse gases into the
..> atmosphere"
..> (p.340); "Tom Birch ... argues that wilderness managers, charged with
..> incarcerating wilderness, are more concerned with the advancement of their
..> careers through achieving quantifiable goals (number of park visitors,
..> total
..> revenues) and developing park and forest amenities (roads, 'scenic'
..> turnouts,
..> restrooms, paved trails, maps, campgrounds) than with perpetuating the
..> land
..> community of which they are a part" (p.344).
..>
..> Ideally, we should be working to reduce all human access to wildlife
..> habitat. But at the very least, we should eliminate mechanical access
..> (with the
..> exception of small compromises for wheelchairs).
..>
..> Sincerely,
..>
..> Michael J. Vandeman,
..> Ph.D.
..>
..> References:
..>
..> Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
..> Recreationists.
..> Covelo, California: Island Press, c.1995.
..>
..>
..> ===
..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..>
..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:43:08 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
..> wrote:
..>
..> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting hiking
..> .> injuries
..> .> .> .> that
..> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling, you
..> are
..> .> .> posting
..> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is this
..> .> "thinking
..> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..> .> .> .> .
..> .> .> .<content clipped>
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on trails,
..> .> where
..> .> .> .> they
..> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .Your opinion.
..> .> .>
..> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..> National
..> .> .> Park....
..> .> .
..> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles of
..> trails
..> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..> mountain
..> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is outside the
..> .> realm
..> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..> .> conquering
..> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special that
..> it
..> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..> designated
..> .> as
..> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal value." -
..> from
..> .> .the Yosemite website.
..> .>
..> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned mountain
..> .> biking,
..> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site. But
..> they
..> .> CARE
..> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL human
..> .activity is negative.
..>
..> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with selected
.."proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking. It isn't.

Liar.

You
..haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your "science" means nothing
..because you present it with no balance.


..> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is operated by
..> a
..> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human alone, is
..> .negative.
..>
..> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see below).
..Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..>
..> .We do not subscribe to the notion that your narrow perspective does
..> anything
..> .to move us forward in preserving anything except your ego and your
..> platform
..> .to spew it on. We do subscribe to the notion that in order to PRESERVE
..> the
..> .rapidly declining habitat you claim to cherish, we ALL must get together
..> in
..> .speaking out where it will do the most good. You talk a good game on
..> "road
..> .construction" but your energy is spent on getting bicycles off of your
..> .hiking trails. You can't even visualize a bicycle in the woods. So much
..> so
..> .it seems you would rather have no habitat if it were to be shared with
..> human
..> .occupied bicycles.
..> .Beyond all that, your pathetic and small minded philosophy is obvious
..> when
..> .you generalize, again, with your comment that mtbrs are "dense". You are
..> so
..> .arrogant to believe your "care about nature" is more real than anyone
..> else.
..> .Your way is NOT the only way. Your view is NOT the only view. To believe
..> .that, is DENSE.
..> .Oh... and watch your back.
..>
..> Your threat is duly noted.
..Not a threat, you paranoid goofball... just a "heads up" on the actions
..taking place right now to get real information into the public about cycling
..at the EBMU.
..>
..> The EBMU is one of the topics of discussion in
..> .California and you may see bicycles there yet.
..> .>
..> .> .In this historic context, it is hardly an example of a multi-use park
..> .> .system.
..> .> .Prime Minister Blair shares opinions with George W. Bush... Do you
..> .> believe
..> .> .that because these opinions are shared by World Leaders that they are
..> the
..> .> .only opinions or that they are more valid than others?
..> .> .>
..> .> .> Your attempts to make it "fact" by posting jokes, stories of
..> .> .> .death, and selective contexts do not change that it is still an
..> .> opinion.
..> .> .> You
..> .> .> .may draw whatever conclusion you like and present your theory. In
..> no
..> .> way
..> .> .> .should you expect that to be the only conclusion to be drawn or the
..> .> only
..> .> .> .theory that can be presented.
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> ===
..> .> .> .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> .> .> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> .> .> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..>
..> March 24, 1996
..> Sierra Club Board of Directors, Wild Planet Strategy Team, &
..> Off-Road Vehicle Subcommittee
..> 730 Polk Street
..> San Francisco, California 94109
..>
..> Re: "Harmless" Recreation Kills Wildlife!
..>
..> Gentlepersons:
..>
..> It has been customary for people to assume that when we are not directly
..> harming wildlife, we are not harming them. Besides being a convenient
..> rationalization, this assumption is understandable: we assume that others,
..> even
..> members of other species, are like us. We don't feel very threatened by
..> the
..> presence of other species; we are, after all, the top predator. We also
..> live
..> surrounded by plenty; most of us can't imagine what it is like to go
..> hungry for
..> even one day. Wildlife, however, does usually feel very threatened by our
..> presence, and many organisms exist on a very tight (food/energy) budget.
..> Also,
..> they often have much greater visual and auditory acuity than we do, and
..> hence
..> can be disturbed by sensations that we wouldn't even notice. Amphibians,
..> for
..> example, are extremely sensitive to vibrations.
..>
..> "Traditionally, observing, feeding, and photographing wildlife were
..> considered to be 'nonconsumptive' activities because removal of animals
..> from
..> their natural habitats did not occur.... nonconsumptive wildlife
..> recreation was
..> considered relatively benign in terms of its effects on wildlife; today,
..> however, there is a growing recognition that wildlife-viewing recreation
..> can
..> have serious negative impacts on wildlife" (Knight & Gutzwiller, p.257).
..>
..> Technology has made it much easier for people to reach wildlife habitat,
..> including areas where access used to be difficult, such as cliff faces,
..> caves,
..> under water, and inhospitable climates. Roads, trails, ORVs, mountain
..> bikes,
..> high-tech camping gear, freeze-dried foods, and even waterproof maps are
..> some of
..> the tools that allow people to travel far into wilderness in great
..> comfort. That
..> and increasing population have squeezed and frightened wildlife out of its
..> preferred habitat, both temporarily and permanently, depriving it of
..> needed
..> foods, shelter, and choice of mates. Roads are particularly pernicious,
..> because
..> they not only give humans easy access to wilderness, but they fragment
..> habitat,
..> because many cover-adapted species are afraid to cross them.
..>
..> Speed is a big factor. Being encased in a motor vehicle greatly reduces
..> the sensations that you experience. Thus in order to obtain the equivalent
..> physical experience that a hiker acquires in a short walk through the
..> woods
..> (complete with sounds, sights, smells, tastes, and touch), you have to
..> drive a
..> great distance! Similarly, a mountain biker travels too fast to fully
..> appreciate
..> his/her surroundings, and thus soon gets bored with the trail and needs to
..> experience another (and another and another). This is one reason why
..> mountain
..> bikers are never satisfied, no matter how many trails they have access to,
..> and
..> why they are exerting such tremendous pressure on land managers around the
..> world
..> to give them ever greater access. (I asked one of them if there were any
..> limit
..> to this process. He told me that no one would ever want to bike Mt.
..> Everest.
..> However, only a few days later I saw an advertizement for a mountain bike
..> trip
..> to Mt. Everest!)
..>
..> Here are some of the damaging effects that the mere presence of a human
..> can have on wildlife: When an animal is guarding a nest, it can be scared
..> away
..> ("flushed") for some time, at least while a human is present. Besides
..> using up
..> energy that may not be plentiful, eggs and young are left exposed to
..> dangerous
..> temperatures (hot or cold) and predators. The movement of the parent, or
..> sometimes the odor of the human, can direct predators to the nest, causing
..> the
..> death of some of the young. Sometimes the parent in its rush steps on an
..> egg or
..> knocks it or its young out of the nest, leading to certain death for the
..> offspring. Some parents may even abandon the nest or kill and eat the
..> young, if
..> they are frightened or startled enough. Young can get left behind when a
..> parent
..> flushes suddenly, get lost, and die of starvation or be eaten by a
..> predator.
..>
..> The stress of disturbance can increase energy needs, elevate heart rate
..> (possibly leading to death), force the animal to temporarily or
..> permanently
..> abandon a feeding area, force it to become nocturnal, force it to spend a
..> great
..> amount of time watching for humans, interfere with reproduction, and in
..> general
..> decrease its productivity. Migratory birds, for example, have a limited
..> amount
..> of time to stock up on food before their trip. They often spend long
..> periods
..> flying over ocean, and can die if they don't have adequate nutritional
..> reserves.
..>
..> Because the Earth is losing some 100 species a day, worldwide, it is
..> very important that we quickly become better informed, and stop mindlessly
..> continuing "business as usual" in our approaches to wildlife and
..> recreation.
..>
..> Here are some relevant excerpts from Knight and Gutzwiller: "the notion
..> that recreation has no environmental impacts is no longer tenable.
..> Recreationists often degrade the land, water, and wildlife resources that
..> support their activities by simplifying plant communities, increasing
..> animal
..> mortality, displacing and disturbing wildlife, and distributing refuse"
..> (p.3);
..> Boyle and Sampson ... reviewed 166 articles that contained original data
..> on the
..> effects of nonconsumptive outdoor recreation on wildlife. In 81% of them,
..> the
..> effects were considered negative" (p.51); "Nature viewing, by its very
..> definition, has great potential to negatively affect wildlife. ...
..> Predators
..> learn to follow human scent trails to nest sites" (p.55); "activities
..> [involving] nonmotorized travel ... [have] caused the creation of more ...
..> trails in wildlands.... These activities are extensive in nature and have
..> the
..> ability to disrupt wildlife in many ways, particularly by displacing
..> animals
..> from an area" (p.56); "Recreational disturbance has traditionally been
..> viewed as
..> most detrimental to wildlife during the breeding season. Recently, it has
..> become
..> apparent that disturbance outside of the animal's breeding season may have
..> equally severe effects" (p.73); "Birds can lose eggs and young when
..> predators
..> attack nests after parents are startled into flight" (p.133); "Human
..> occupation
..> and activity are clearly and directly correlated with declines in breeding
..> populations of birds" (p.135).
..>
..> "People have an impact on wildlife habitat and all that depends on it,
..> no matter what the activity" (p.157); "Perhaps the major way that people
..> have
..> influenced wildlife populations is through encroachment into wildlife
..> areas"
..> (p.160); "a single visit to nest sites by people can cause nest
..> abandonment"
..> (p.161); "Some goslings got lost in the dense vegetation when parents
..> headed for
..> the pool, or parents swam off leaving goslings behind that could not
..> follow"
..> (p.162); "Pregnant animals suffered higher stress from wildlife viewers,
..> causing
..> some to abort" (p.163); "Outdoor recreation has been recognized as an
..> important
..> factor that can reduce biosphere sustainability.... Indeed, recreational
..> activities, including many that may seem innocuous, can alter vertebrate
..> behaviour, reproduction, distributions, and habitats" (p.169); "Human
..> disturbance caused eagles to flush sooner than the other species, and
..> eagles
..> rarely returned to a carcass following disturbance" (p.170); "Juveniles
..> that get
..> displaced from familiar surroundings (e.g., home ranges) by recreationists
..> may
..> also be more susceptible to predation" (p.172).
..>
..> "Displaced animals are forced out of familiar habitat and must then
..> survive and reproduce in areas where they are not familiar with the
..> locations of
..> food, shelter, and other vital resources.... Hammitt and Cole ... ranked
..> displacement as being more detrimental to wildlife than harassment or
..> recreation-induced habitat changes.... Densities ... of 13 breeding bird
..> species
..> were negatively associated with the intensity of recreation activity by
..> park
..> visitors, primarily pedestrians and cyclists" (pp.173-4); "off-road
..> vehicles can
..> collapse burrows of desert mammals and reptiles" (p.176); "Compaction
..> increases
..> the mechanical resistance of the soil to root penetration and can reduce
..> the
..> emergence of seedlings" (p.184); "Soil compaction reduces the size of pore
..> spaces, altering the soil fauna" (p.189); "several studies have shown the
..> importance of contiguous, undisturbed habitat for many native species"
..> (p.190);
..> "Recreational activities clearly have substantial and generally adverse
..> influences on terrestrial vegetation and soil, and on aquatic systems"
..> (p.193);
..> "researchers have documented an increase in heart rate in different
..> species when
..> approached by visitors, which can subsequently initiate other
..> physiological
..> effects of stress, including death" (p.206); "Indirect effects may also
..> occur
..> from development of trail networks and picnic areas, which not only remove
..> habitat, but increase habitat edge ... [, opening] these areas for
..> colonization
..> by exotic ... species" (p.210); "Geese could not compensate for a loss in
..> feeding time" (p.251); "The ESA defines harassment as 'an intentional or
..> negligent act or omission which creates the likelihood of injury to
..> wildlife by
..> annoying it to such an extent as to significantly disrupt normal behaviour
..> patterns which include, but are not limited to, feeding or sheltering'"
..> (p.304).
..>
..> "It is expected that outdoor recreational activity will continue to
..> increase, while the amount of wild land where wildlife may seek refuge
..> from
..> disturbance will decrease" (p.327); "Recreationists are, ironically,
..> destroying
..> the very thing they love: the blooming buzzing confusion of nature.... The
..> recreation industry deserves to be listed on the same page with interests
..> that
..> are cutting the last of the old-growth forests, washing fertile topsoils
..> into
..> the sea, and pouring billions of tons of greenhouse gases into the
..> atmosphere"
..> (p.340); "Tom Birch ... argues that wilderness managers, charged with
..> incarcerating wilderness, are more concerned with the advancement of their
..> careers through achieving quantifiable goals (number of park visitors,
..> total
..> revenues) and developing park and forest amenities (roads, 'scenic'
..> turnouts,
..> restrooms, paved trails, maps, campgrounds) than with perpetuating the
..> land
..> community of which they are a part" (p.344).
..>
..> Ideally, we should be working to reduce all human access to wildlife
..> habitat. But at the very least, we should eliminate mechanical access
..> (with the
..> exception of small compromises for wheelchairs).
..>
..> Sincerely,
..>
..> Michael J. Vandeman,
..> Ph.D.
..>
..> References:
..>
..> Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
..> Recreationists.
..> Covelo, California: Island Press, c.1995.
..>
..>
..> ===
..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..>
..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 21:43:08 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
..> wrote:
..>
..> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting hiking
..> .> injuries
..> .> .> .> that
..> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling, you
..> are
..> .> .> posting
..> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is this
..> .> "thinking
..> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..> .> .> .> .
..> .> .> .<content clipped>
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on trails,
..> .> where
..> .> .> .> they
..> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .Your opinion.
..> .> .>
..> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..> National
..> .> .> Park....
..> .> .
..> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles of
..> trails
..> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..> mountain
..> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is outside the
..> .> realm
..> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..> .> conquering
..> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special that
..> it
..> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..> designated
..> .> as
..> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal value." -
..> from
..> .> .the Yosemite website.
..> .>
..> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned mountain
..> .> biking,
..> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site. But
..> they
..> .> CARE
..> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL human
..> .activity is negative.
..>
..> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with selected
.."proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking. It isn't.

Liar.

You
..haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your "science" means nothing
..because you present it with no balance.


..> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is operated by
..> a
..> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human alone, is
..> .negative.
..>
..> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see below).
..Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..>
..> .We do not subscribe to the notion that your narrow perspective does
..> anything
..> .to move us forward in preserving anything except your ego and your
..> platform
..> .to spew it on. We do subscribe to the notion that in order to PRESERVE
..> the
..> .rapidly declining habitat you claim to cherish, we ALL must get together
..> in
..> .speaking out where it will do the most good. You talk a good game on
..> "road
..> .construction" but your energy is spent on getting bicycles off of your
..> .hiking trails. You can't even visualize a bicycle in the woods. So much
..> so
..> .it seems you would rather have no habitat if it were to be shared with
..> human
..> .occupied bicycles.
..> .Beyond all that, your pathetic and small minded philosophy is obvious
..> when
..> .you generalize, again, with your comment that mtbrs are "dense". You are
..> so
..> .arrogant to believe your "care about nature" is more real than anyone
..> else.
..> .Your way is NOT the only way. Your view is NOT the only view. To believe
..> .that, is DENSE.
..> .Oh... and watch your back.
..>
..> Your threat is duly noted.
..Not a threat, you paranoid goofball... just a "heads up" on the actions
..taking place right now to get real information into the public about cycling
..at the EBMU.
..>
..> The EBMU is one of the topics of discussion in
..> .California and you may see bicycles there yet.
..> .>
..> .> .In this historic context, it is hardly an example of a multi-use park
..> .> .system.
..> .> .Prime Minister Blair shares opinions with George W. Bush... Do you
..> .> believe
..> .> .that because these opinions are shared by World Leaders that they are
..> the
..> .> .only opinions or that they are more valid than others?
..> .> .>
..> .> .> Your attempts to make it "fact" by posting jokes, stories of
..> .> .> .death, and selective contexts do not change that it is still an
..> .> opinion.
..> .> .> You
..> .> .> .may draw whatever conclusion you like and present your theory. In
..> no
..> .> way
..> .> .> .should you expect that to be the only conclusion to be drawn or the
..> .> only
..> .> .> .theory that can be presented.
..> .> .> .
..> .> .> .> ===
..> .> .> .> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> .> .> .> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> .> .> .> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..> .> .> .>
..> .> .> .> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..>
..> March 24, 1996
..> Sierra Club Board of Directors, Wild Planet Strategy Team, &
..> Off-Road Vehicle Subcommittee
..> 730 Polk Street
..> San Francisco, California 94109
..>
..> Re: "Harmless" Recreation Kills Wildlife!
..>
..> Gentlepersons:
..>
..> It has been customary for people to assume that when we are not directly
..> harming wildlife, we are not harming them. Besides being a convenient
..> rationalization, this assumption is understandable: we assume that others,
..> even
..> members of other species, are like us. We don't feel very threatened by
..> the
..> presence of other species; we are, after all, the top predator. We also
..> live
..> surrounded by plenty; most of us can't imagine what it is like to go
..> hungry for
..> even one day. Wildlife, however, does usually feel very threatened by our
..> presence, and many organisms exist on a very tight (food/energy) budget.
..> Also,
..> they often have much greater visual and auditory acuity than we do, and
..> hence
..> can be disturbed by sensations that we wouldn't even notice. Amphibians,
..> for
..> example, are extremely sensitive to vibrations.
..>
..> "Traditionally, observing, feeding, and photographing wildlife were
..> considered to be 'nonconsumptive' activities because removal of animals
..> from
..> their natural habitats did not occur.... nonconsumptive wildlife
..> recreation was
..> considered relatively benign in terms of its effects on wildlife; today,
..> however, there is a growing recognition that wildlife-viewing recreation
..> can
..> have serious negative impacts on wildlife" (Knight & Gutzwiller, p.257).
..>
..> Technology has made it much easier for people to reach wildlife habitat,
..> including areas where access used to be difficult, such as cliff faces,
..> caves,
..> under water, and inhospitable climates. Roads, trails, ORVs, mountain
..> bikes,
..> high-tech camping gear, freeze-dried foods, and even waterproof maps are
..> some of
..> the tools that allow people to travel far into wilderness in great
..> comfort. That
..> and increasing population have squeezed and frightened wildlife out of its
..> preferred habitat, both temporarily and permanently, depriving it of
..> needed
..> foods, shelter, and choice of mates. Roads are particularly pernicious,
..> because
..> they not only give humans easy access to wilderness, but they fragment
..> habitat,
..> because many cover-adapted species are afraid to cross them.
..>
..> Speed is a big factor. Being encased in a motor vehicle greatly reduces
..> the sensations that you experience. Thus in order to obtain the equivalent
..> physical experience that a hiker acquires in a short walk through the
..> woods
..> (complete with sounds, sights, smells, tastes, and touch), you have to
..> drive a
..> great distance! Similarly, a mountain biker travels too fast to fully
..> appreciate
..> his/her surroundings, and thus soon gets bored with the trail and needs to
..> experience another (and another and another). This is one reason why
..> mountain
..> bikers are never satisfied, no matter how many trails they have access to,
..> and
..> why they are exerting such tremendous pressure on land managers around the
..> world
..> to give them ever greater access. (I asked one of them if there were any
..> limit
..> to this process. He told me that no one would ever want to bike Mt.
..> Everest.
..> However, only a few days later I saw an advertizement for a mountain bike
..> trip
..> to Mt. Everest!)
..>
..> Here are some of the damaging effects that the mere presence of a human
..> can have on wildlife: When an animal is guarding a nest, it can be scared
..> away
..> ("flushed") for some time, at least while a human is present. Besides
..> using up
..> energy that may not be plentiful, eggs and young are left exposed to
..> dangerous
..> temperatures (hot or cold) and predators. The movement of the parent, or
..> sometimes the odor of the human, can direct predators to the nest, causing
..> the
..> death of some of the young. Sometimes the parent in its rush steps on an
..> egg or
..> knocks it or its young out of the nest, leading to certain death for the
..> offspring. Some parents may even abandon the nest or kill and eat the
..> young, if
..> they are frightened or startled enough. Young can get left behind when a
..> parent
..> flushes suddenly, get lost, and die of starvation or be eaten by a
..> predator.
..>
..> The stress of disturbance can increase energy needs, elevate heart rate
..> (possibly leading to death), force the animal to temporarily or
..> permanently
..> abandon a feeding area, force it to become nocturnal, force it to spend a
..> great
..> amount of time watching for humans, interfere with reproduction, and in
..> general
..> decrease its productivity. Migratory birds, for example, have a limited
..> amount
..> of time to stock up on food before their trip. They often spend long
..> periods
..> flying over ocean, and can die if they don't have adequate nutritional
..> reserves.
..>
..> Because the Earth is losing some 100 species a day, worldwide, it is
..> very important that we quickly become better informed, and stop mindlessly
..> continuing "business as usual" in our approaches to wildlife and
..> recreation.
..>
..> Here are some relevant excerpts from Knight and Gutzwiller: "the notion
..> that recreation has no environmental impacts is no longer tenable.
..> Recreationists often degrade the land, water, and wildlife resources that
..> support their activities by simplifying plant communities, increasing
..> animal
..> mortality, displacing and disturbing wildlife, and distributing refuse"
..> (p.3);
..> Boyle and Sampson ... reviewed 166 articles that contained original data
..> on the
..> effects of nonconsumptive outdoor recreation on wildlife. In 81% of them,
..> the
..> effects were considered negative" (p.51); "Nature viewing, by its very
..> definition, has great potential to negatively affect wildlife. ...
..> Predators
..> learn to follow human scent trails to nest sites" (p.55); "activities
..> [involving] nonmotorized travel ... [have] caused the creation of more ...
..> trails in wildlands.... These activities are extensive in nature and have
..> the
..> ability to disrupt wildlife in many ways, particularly by displacing
..> animals
..> from an area" (p.56); "Recreational disturbance has traditionally been
..> viewed as
..> most detrimental to wildlife during the breeding season. Recently, it has
..> become
..> apparent that disturbance outside of the animal's breeding season may have
..> equally severe effects" (p.73); "Birds can lose eggs and young when
..> predators
..> attack nests after parents are startled into flight" (p.133); "Human
..> occupation
..> and activity are clearly and directly correlated with declines in breeding
..> populations of birds" (p.135).
..>
..> "People have an impact on wildlife habitat and all that depends on it,
..> no matter what the activity" (p.157); "Perhaps the major way that people
..> have
..> influenced wildlife populations is through encroachment into wildlife
..> areas"
..> (p.160); "a single visit to nest sites by people can cause nest
..> abandonment"
..> (p.161); "Some goslings got lost in the dense vegetation when parents
..> headed for
..> the pool, or parents swam off leaving goslings behind that could not
..> follow"
..> (p.162); "Pregnant animals suffered higher stress from wildlife viewers,
..> causing
..> some to abort" (p.163); "Outdoor recreation has been recognized as an
..> important
..> factor that can reduce biosphere sustainability.... Indeed, recreational
..> activities, including many that may seem innocuous, can alter vertebrate
..> behaviour, reproduction, distributions, and habitats" (p.169); "Human
..> disturbance caused eagles to flush sooner than the other species, and
..> eagles
..> rarely returned to a carcass following disturbance" (p.170); "Juveniles
..> that get
..> displaced from familiar surroundings (e.g., home ranges) by recreationists
..> may
..> also be more susceptible to predation" (p.172).
..>
..> "Displaced animals are forced out of familiar habitat and must then
..> survive and reproduce in areas where they are not familiar with the
..> locations of
..> food, shelter, and other vital resources.... Hammitt and Cole ... ranked
..> displacement as being more detrimental to wildlife than harassment or
..> recreation-induced habitat changes.... Densities ... of 13 breeding bird
..> species
..> were negatively associated with the intensity of recreation activity by
..> park
..> visitors, primarily pedestrians and cyclists" (pp.173-4); "off-road
..> vehicles can
..> collapse burrows of desert mammals and reptiles" (p.176); "Compaction
..> increases
..> the mechanical resistance of the soil to root penetration and can reduce
..> the
..> emergence of seedlings" (p.184); "Soil compaction reduces the size of pore
..> spaces, altering the soil fauna" (p.189); "several studies have shown the
..> importance of contiguous, undisturbed habitat for many native species"
..> (p.190);
..> "Recreational activities clearly have substantial and generally adverse
..> influences on terrestrial vegetation and soil, and on aquatic systems"
..> (p.193);
..> "researchers have documented an increase in heart rate in different
..> species when
..> approached by visitors, which can subsequently initiate other
..> physiological
..> effects of stress, including death" (p.206); "Indirect effects may also
..> occur
..> from development of trail networks and picnic areas, which not only remove
..> habitat, but increase habitat edge ... [, opening] these areas for
..> colonization
..> by exotic ... species" (p.210); "Geese could not compensate for a loss in
..> feeding time" (p.251); "The ESA defines harassment as 'an intentional or
..> negligent act or omission which creates the likelihood of injury to
..> wildlife by
..> annoying it to such an extent as to significantly disrupt normal behaviour
..> patterns which include, but are not limited to, feeding or sheltering'"
..> (p.304).
..>
..> "It is expected that outdoor recreational activity will continue to
..> increase, while the amount of wild land where wildlife may seek refuge
..> from
..> disturbance will decrease" (p.327); "Recreationists are, ironically,
..> destroying
..> the very thing they love: the blooming buzzing confusion of nature.... The
..> recreation industry deserves to be listed on the same page with interests
..> that
..> are cutting the last of the old-growth forests, washing fertile topsoils
..> into
..> the sea, and pouring billions of tons of greenhouse gases into the
..> atmosphere"
..> (p.340); "Tom Birch ... argues that wilderness managers, charged with
..> incarcerating wilderness, are more concerned with the advancement of their
..> careers through achieving quantifiable goals (number of park visitors,
..> total
..> revenues) and developing park and forest amenities (roads, 'scenic'
..> turnouts,
..> restrooms, paved trails, maps, campgrounds) than with perpetuating the
..> land
..> community of which they are a part" (p.344).
..>
..> Ideally, we should be working to reduce all human access to wildlife
..> habitat. But at the very least, we should eliminate mechanical access
..> (with the
..> exception of small compromises for wheelchairs).
..>
..> Sincerely,
..>
..> Michael J. Vandeman,
..> Ph.D.
..>
..> References:
..>
..> Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
..> Recreationists.
..> Covelo, California: Island Press, c.1995.
..>
..>
..> ===
..> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
..> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
..> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
..>
..> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:04:59 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

..S Curtiss wrote:
..> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> news:[email protected]...
..>> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss"
..>> <[email protected]> wrote:
..>>
..>> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting
..>> hiking .> injuries
..>> .> .> .> that
..>> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling,
..>> you are
..>> .> .> posting
..>> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is
..>> this .> "thinking
..>> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..>> .> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .<content clipped>
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on
..>> trails, .> where
..>> .> .> .> they
..>> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .Your opinion.
..>> .> .>
..>> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..>> National
..>> .> .> Park....
..>> .> .
..>> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles
..>> of trails
..>> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..>> mountain
..>> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is
..>> outside the .> realm
..>> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..>> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..>> .> conquering
..>> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special
..>> that it
..>> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..>> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..>> designated
..>> .> as
..>> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal
..>> value." - from
..>> .> .the Yosemite website.
..>> .>
..>> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..>> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..>> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned
..>> mountain .> biking,
..>> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site.
..>> But they
..>> .> CARE
..>> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..>> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL
..>> human .activity is negative.
..>>
..>> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..> You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with
..> selected "proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking.
..> It isn't. You haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your
..> "science" means nothing because you present it with no balance.
..>>
..>> We do not subscribe to the notion that the mere
..>> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is
..>> operated by a
..>> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human
..>> alone, is .negative.
..>>
..>> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see
..>> below).
..> Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..
..AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now snipped --
..why is that so hard?!?)
..
..FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE EXCESS
..**** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you stupid or lazy
..or both?!?)!!!

He's a mountain biker, isn't he? QED

..AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:04:59 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

..S Curtiss wrote:
..> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> news:[email protected]...
..>> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss"
..>> <[email protected]> wrote:
..>>
..>> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting
..>> hiking .> injuries
..>> .> .> .> that
..>> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling,
..>> you are
..>> .> .> posting
..>> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is
..>> this .> "thinking
..>> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..>> .> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .<content clipped>
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on
..>> trails, .> where
..>> .> .> .> they
..>> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .Your opinion.
..>> .> .>
..>> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..>> National
..>> .> .> Park....
..>> .> .
..>> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles
..>> of trails
..>> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..>> mountain
..>> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is
..>> outside the .> realm
..>> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..>> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..>> .> conquering
..>> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special
..>> that it
..>> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..>> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..>> designated
..>> .> as
..>> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal
..>> value." - from
..>> .> .the Yosemite website.
..>> .>
..>> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..>> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..>> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned
..>> mountain .> biking,
..>> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site.
..>> But they
..>> .> CARE
..>> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..>> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL
..>> human .activity is negative.
..>>
..>> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..> You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with
..> selected "proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking.
..> It isn't. You haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your
..> "science" means nothing because you present it with no balance.
..>>
..>> We do not subscribe to the notion that the mere
..>> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is
..>> operated by a
..>> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human
..>> alone, is .negative.
..>>
..>> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see
..>> below).
..> Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..
..AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now snipped --
..why is that so hard?!?)
..
..FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE EXCESS
..**** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you stupid or lazy
..or both?!?)!!!

He's a mountain biker, isn't he? QED

..AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:04:59 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

..S Curtiss wrote:
..> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> news:[email protected]...
..>> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss"
..>> <[email protected]> wrote:
..>>
..>> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting
..>> hiking .> injuries
..>> .> .> .> that
..>> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling,
..>> you are
..>> .> .> posting
..>> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is
..>> this .> "thinking
..>> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..>> .> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .<content clipped>
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on
..>> trails, .> where
..>> .> .> .> they
..>> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .Your opinion.
..>> .> .>
..>> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..>> National
..>> .> .> Park....
..>> .> .
..>> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles
..>> of trails
..>> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..>> mountain
..>> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is
..>> outside the .> realm
..>> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..>> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..>> .> conquering
..>> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special
..>> that it
..>> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..>> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..>> designated
..>> .> as
..>> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal
..>> value." - from
..>> .> .the Yosemite website.
..>> .>
..>> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..>> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..>> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned
..>> mountain .> biking,
..>> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site.
..>> But they
..>> .> CARE
..>> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..>> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL
..>> human .activity is negative.
..>>
..>> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..> You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with
..> selected "proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking.
..> It isn't. You haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your
..> "science" means nothing because you present it with no balance.
..>>
..>> We do not subscribe to the notion that the mere
..>> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is
..>> operated by a
..>> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human
..>> alone, is .negative.
..>>
..>> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see
..>> below).
..> Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..
..AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now snipped --
..why is that so hard?!?)
..
..FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE EXCESS
..**** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you stupid or lazy
..or both?!?)!!!

He's a mountain biker, isn't he? QED

..AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:04:59 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

..S Curtiss wrote:
..> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> news:[email protected]...
..>> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss"
..>> <[email protected]> wrote:
..>>
..>> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting
..>> hiking .> injuries
..>> .> .> .> that
..>> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling,
..>> you are
..>> .> .> posting
..>> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is
..>> this .> "thinking
..>> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..>> .> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .<content clipped>
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on
..>> trails, .> where
..>> .> .> .> they
..>> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .Your opinion.
..>> .> .>
..>> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..>> National
..>> .> .> Park....
..>> .> .
..>> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles
..>> of trails
..>> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..>> mountain
..>> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is
..>> outside the .> realm
..>> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..>> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..>> .> conquering
..>> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special
..>> that it
..>> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..>> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..>> designated
..>> .> as
..>> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal
..>> value." - from
..>> .> .the Yosemite website.
..>> .>
..>> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..>> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..>> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned
..>> mountain .> biking,
..>> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site.
..>> But they
..>> .> CARE
..>> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..>> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL
..>> human .activity is negative.
..>>
..>> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..> You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with
..> selected "proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking.
..> It isn't. You haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your
..> "science" means nothing because you present it with no balance.
..>>
..>> We do not subscribe to the notion that the mere
..>> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is
..>> operated by a
..>> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human
..>> alone, is .negative.
..>>
..>> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see
..>> below).
..> Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..
..AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now snipped --
..why is that so hard?!?)
..
..FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE EXCESS
..**** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you stupid or lazy
..or both?!?)!!!

He's a mountain biker, isn't he? QED

..AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:04:59 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

..S Curtiss wrote:
..> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> news:[email protected]...
..>> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss"
..>> <[email protected]> wrote:
..>>
..>> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting
..>> hiking .> injuries
..>> .> .> .> that
..>> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling,
..>> you are
..>> .> .> posting
..>> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is
..>> this .> "thinking
..>> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..>> .> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .<content clipped>
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on
..>> trails, .> where
..>> .> .> .> they
..>> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .Your opinion.
..>> .> .>
..>> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..>> National
..>> .> .> Park....
..>> .> .
..>> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles
..>> of trails
..>> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..>> mountain
..>> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is
..>> outside the .> realm
..>> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..>> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..>> .> conquering
..>> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special
..>> that it
..>> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..>> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..>> designated
..>> .> as
..>> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal
..>> value." - from
..>> .> .the Yosemite website.
..>> .>
..>> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..>> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..>> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned
..>> mountain .> biking,
..>> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site.
..>> But they
..>> .> CARE
..>> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..>> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL
..>> human .activity is negative.
..>>
..>> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..> You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with
..> selected "proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking.
..> It isn't. You haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your
..> "science" means nothing because you present it with no balance.
..>>
..>> We do not subscribe to the notion that the mere
..>> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is
..>> operated by a
..>> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human
..>> alone, is .negative.
..>>
..>> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see
..>> below).
..> Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..
..AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now snipped --
..why is that so hard?!?)
..
..FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE EXCESS
..**** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you stupid or lazy
..or both?!?)!!!

He's a mountain biker, isn't he? QED

..AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:04:59 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

..S Curtiss wrote:
..> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> news:[email protected]...
..>> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss"
..>> <[email protected]> wrote:
..>>
..>> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting
..>> hiking .> injuries
..>> .> .> .> that
..>> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling,
..>> you are
..>> .> .> posting
..>> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is
..>> this .> "thinking
..>> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..>> .> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .<content clipped>
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on
..>> trails, .> where
..>> .> .> .> they
..>> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .Your opinion.
..>> .> .>
..>> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..>> National
..>> .> .> Park....
..>> .> .
..>> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles
..>> of trails
..>> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..>> mountain
..>> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is
..>> outside the .> realm
..>> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..>> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..>> .> conquering
..>> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special
..>> that it
..>> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..>> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..>> designated
..>> .> as
..>> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal
..>> value." - from
..>> .> .the Yosemite website.
..>> .>
..>> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..>> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..>> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned
..>> mountain .> biking,
..>> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site.
..>> But they
..>> .> CARE
..>> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..>> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL
..>> human .activity is negative.
..>>
..>> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..> You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with
..> selected "proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking.
..> It isn't. You haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your
..> "science" means nothing because you present it with no balance.
..>>
..>> We do not subscribe to the notion that the mere
..>> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is
..>> operated by a
..>> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human
..>> alone, is .negative.
..>>
..>> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see
..>> below).
..> Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..
..AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now snipped --
..why is that so hard?!?)
..
..FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE EXCESS
..**** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you stupid or lazy
..or both?!?)!!!

He's a mountain biker, isn't he? QED

..AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:04:59 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

..S Curtiss wrote:
..> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> news:[email protected]...
..>> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss"
..>> <[email protected]> wrote:
..>>
..>> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting
..>> hiking .> injuries
..>> .> .> .> that
..>> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling,
..>> you are
..>> .> .> posting
..>> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is
..>> this .> "thinking
..>> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..>> .> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .<content clipped>
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on
..>> trails, .> where
..>> .> .> .> they
..>> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .Your opinion.
..>> .> .>
..>> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..>> National
..>> .> .> Park....
..>> .> .
..>> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles
..>> of trails
..>> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..>> mountain
..>> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is
..>> outside the .> realm
..>> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..>> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..>> .> conquering
..>> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special
..>> that it
..>> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..>> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..>> designated
..>> .> as
..>> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal
..>> value." - from
..>> .> .the Yosemite website.
..>> .>
..>> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..>> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..>> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned
..>> mountain .> biking,
..>> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site.
..>> But they
..>> .> CARE
..>> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..>> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL
..>> human .activity is negative.
..>>
..>> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..> You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with
..> selected "proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking.
..> It isn't. You haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your
..> "science" means nothing because you present it with no balance.
..>>
..>> We do not subscribe to the notion that the mere
..>> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is
..>> operated by a
..>> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human
..>> alone, is .negative.
..>>
..>> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see
..>> below).
..> Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..
..AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now snipped --
..why is that so hard?!?)
..
..FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE EXCESS
..**** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you stupid or lazy
..or both?!?)!!!

He's a mountain biker, isn't he? QED

..AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 03:04:59 GMT, "Bill Sornson"
<[email protected]> wrote:

..S Curtiss wrote:
..> "Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..> news:[email protected]...
..>> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:52:36 -0400, "S Curtiss"
..>> <[email protected]> wrote:
..>>
..>> .> .> .> .Wow! You have made a lateral move! Instead of posting
..>> hiking .> injuries
..>> .> .> .> that
..>> .> .> .> .have nothing to do with the activity of off-road cycling,
..>> you are
..>> .> .> posting
..>> .> .> .> .jokes that have nothing to do with off-road cycling. Is
..>> this .> "thinking
..>> .> .> .> .outside the box"?
..>> .> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .<content clipped>
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .> If mountain bikers didn't INSIST on taking their bikes on
..>> trails, .> where
..>> .> .> .> they
..>> .> .> .> don't belong, there wouldn't be any problem.
..>> .> .> .
..>> .> .> .Your opinion.
..>> .> .>
..>> .> .> Which is shared by responsible land managers, such as Yosemite
..>> National
..>> .> .> Park....
..>> .> .
..>> .> .So rather than allow "mountain biking", thay pave over 12 miles
..>> of trails
..>> .> .for bikes to ride on. Yosemite also has a snow ski program and
..>> mountain
..>> .> .climbing which you speak against. Beyond that, Yosemite is
..>> outside the .> realm
..>> .> .of mult-use systems and has limited "recreation" by definition.
..>> .> ."As far back as the mid-1800's, when America was still intent on
..>> .> conquering
..>> .> .the land, Yosemite was formally recognized as a place so special
..>> that it
..>> .> .should be uniquely protected for the enjoyment and use of future
..>> .> .generations. Not only is Yosemite a National Park, it has been
..>> designated
..>> .> as
..>> .> .a World Heritage Site because of its outstanding universal
..>> value." - from
..>> .> .the Yosemite website.
..>> .>
..>> .> In other words, when we want to protect nature, WE BAN MOUNTAIN
..>> .> BIKING!!!!! get
..>> .> it? East Bay Municipal Utility (water) district ALSO banned
..>> mountain .> biking,
..>> .> even though they are not a national park or world heritage site.
..>> But they
..>> .> CARE
..>> .> ABOUT NATURE. Get it? God, you mountain bikers are DENSE!!!!!!!
..>> .No... Not dense. We just do not subscribe to the notion that ALL
..>> human .activity is negative.
..>>
..>> Nobody ever said it is. We are talking about MOUNTAIN BIKING.
..> You are talking about mt biking with the notion (preconceived, with
..> selected "proof" to follow) that it is more "hazardous" than hiking.
..> It isn't. You haven't proved it. Your belief means nothing. Your
..> "science" means nothing because you present it with no balance.
..>>
..>> We do not subscribe to the notion that the mere
..>> .presence of a human and device that creates no pollution, is
..>> operated by a
..>> .human, and has similar actions on the surroundings than a human
..>> alone, is .negative.
..>>
..>> You are dead wrong. See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc6 (see
..>> below).
..> Why should I re-read another of your opinions on anything?
..
..AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now snipped --
..why is that so hard?!?)
..
..FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE EXCESS
..**** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you stupid or lazy
..or both?!?)!!!

He's a mountain biker, isn't he? QED

..AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:24:18 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..>
..> AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now
..> snipped -- why is that so hard?!?)
..>
..> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE
..> EXCESS **** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you
..> stupid or lazy or both?!?)!!!
..>
..> AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..
..Sorry... forgot about the bandwidth police.
..Sometimes I just don't think

You can say THAT again.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:24:18 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..>
..> AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now
..> snipped -- why is that so hard?!?)
..>
..> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE
..> EXCESS **** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you
..> stupid or lazy or both?!?)!!!
..>
..> AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..
..Sorry... forgot about the bandwidth police.
..Sometimes I just don't think

You can say THAT again.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:24:18 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..>
..> AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now
..> snipped -- why is that so hard?!?)
..>
..> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE
..> EXCESS **** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you
..> stupid or lazy or both?!?)!!!
..>
..> AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..
..Sorry... forgot about the bandwidth police.
..Sometimes I just don't think

You can say THAT again.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:24:18 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..>
..> AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now
..> snipped -- why is that so hard?!?)
..>
..> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE
..> EXCESS **** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you
..> stupid or lazy or both?!?)!!!
..>
..> AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..
..Sorry... forgot about the bandwidth police.
..Sometimes I just don't think

You can say THAT again.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:24:18 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..>
..> AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now
..> snipped -- why is that so hard?!?)
..>
..> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE
..> EXCESS **** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you
..> stupid or lazy or both?!?)!!!
..>
..> AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..
..Sorry... forgot about the bandwidth police.
..Sometimes I just don't think

You can say THAT again.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:24:18 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..>
..> AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now
..> snipped -- why is that so hard?!?)
..>
..> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE
..> EXCESS **** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you
..> stupid or lazy or both?!?)!!!
..>
..> AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..
..Sorry... forgot about the bandwidth police.
..Sometimes I just don't think

You can say THAT again.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:24:18 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..>
..> AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now
..> snipped -- why is that so hard?!?)
..>
..> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE
..> EXCESS **** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you
..> stupid or lazy or both?!?)!!!
..>
..> AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..
..Sorry... forgot about the bandwidth police.
..Sometimes I just don't think

You can say THAT again.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:24:18 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..>
..> AND YET YOU THEN *LEFT* ABOUT 16KBs OF VANDEDRIVEL BELOW!!! (Now
..> snipped -- why is that so hard?!?)
..>
..> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, 'S', TAKE IT PRIVATE OR LEARN TO FRIGGING DELETE
..> EXCESS **** (including about 53 of MV's insipid sig files -- are you
..> stupid or lazy or both?!?)!!!
..>
..> AAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK.
..
..Sorry... forgot about the bandwidth police.
..Sometimes I just don't think

You can say THAT again.

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande